Registered: 02/22/06
Posts: 117
Loc: Central Arkansas
Much like any discussion involving issues of "right" and "wrong," I believe the death penalty is very difficult to implement in such a way that minimizes false positives and so am unsure as to whether or not I support it.
One thing I do wonder about, however, particularly being a therapist, is what is thought of those who are physically incapable of distinguishing reality from the imaginary (audio/visual hallucinations), such as is the case in schizophrenia or other psychotic disorders? Some have said that all murderers should be executed "like...vermin" but what of those who, for one reason or another, are not being treated for such a problem? Is it not then our responsibility to try and help them rather than dispose of them?
It seems that, if the answer is to kill them lest others be killed, then we should also kill others who have a high likelihood of harming others or being an extreme burden to society (i.e., profoundly mentally retarded individuals, those with or who have a history in their family of bipolar disorder, and even some with severe anxiety).
Case in point: I sent a first grader to a psychiatric hospital the other day because she was having visual hallucinations, threatening to kill herself, and hit a teacher her first day at our school. It was not just choices and behavior we were seeing...she was showing signs of serious mental illness with biological etiology. She was not behaving like vermin but like a little girl with an undiagnosed and untreated problem that could easily be helped with medication and therapy. Should we forget second chances for her and just send her to juvenile detention center? "Sure she should get a second chance," you say...but only because she's now being seen by a therapist and is receiving medication management. What if this guy was like the girl I work with when he was in first grade? Mental health services weren't available then.
I'm not pretending to know whether or not this man had mental illness and I'm certainly not pretending to be qualified to pass judgment as to whether or not he should have lived or died. What I am saying is that some of the comments regarding this issue leave no room for gray areas while there is a substantial amount of gray to be considered.
Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Quote:
what is thought of those who are physically incapable of distinguishing reality from the imaginary (audio/visual hallucinations), such as is the case in schizophrenia or other psychotic disorders? Some have said that all murderers should be executed "like...vermin" but what of those who, for one reason or another, are not being treated for such a problem? Is it not then our responsibility to try and help them rather than dispose of them?
The standard, as I understand it, is that if a person is a danger to society, or themselves, they should be confined and treated.
If a person that has committed a brutal murder is found to have a history of severe psychotic disorders that led to those murders then they should be confined and never released. If Therapist could positively prove that the individual would never be a harm to society again then society might consider their release. My experience is that psychology as a science and profession is not that advanced and has a very long way to go before they are capable of making a judgment of that nature.
In truth, severe cases like that of the little girl you describe cannot "easily be helped with medication and therapy". The impact and effect of most chemicals prescribed for most of these severe patients is no where near fully understood and many of the drugs prescribed have very serious side effects, some of which cause serious problems both related and unrelated to the condition which they are meant to treat.
Doctors don't know near as much as they like us to think they do. Big Pharma focuses on designing drugs that can be patented, not drugs that cure. Some of the drugs they sell perform barely better than the placebo they test it against in clinical studies.
Just 25 short years ago doctors of all walks refused to acknowledge that Post Partum Depression could lead to severe Psychosis. One result of this is that almost no research on this was done previous to that. That means the body of science used to base treatment on now is only 25 years old and there is very little of that even now. How many years did women suffer because doctors refused to consider the symptoms and their relation to child birth a valid medical diagnoses.
Still today, St. John's Wort is barely being supported as a treatment for depression even though clinical studies show it to be as effective as Paxil while exhibiting none of the ill side effects of Paxil which can include an increase in suicidal tendencies.
It would be nice if a pill a day really could cure psychotic disorders, but humans, it turns out, are quite complex and the knowledge about how they work is still pretty rudimentary and our means of acquiring it crude and wasteful.
Murderers, Rapists, and child predators not deserve a second chance. Their victims do not get a 2nd chance in life, if the victim survives the ordeal or not. So why should we give these POS's a 2nd chance to ruin more lives ??
As for every other criminal, its not the tax payers job to help them find another job. If they really want a job and want to make good for themselves, they'll get a job at McDonalds or similar with little to no skills required and do something with their lives, even if its not the best job in the world, its actually doing something.
Like all of the high school kids who are working at similar places to have job experience to get better jobs down the line you need to work, and show that you are capable of working well before you get a decent job. It is not our job nor our duty as tax payers to give them preferred treatment because they are criminals.
The definition of "retarded" is to hinder, or hold back. Used in the sentence it was, you could say the youths were socially hindered, or held back. Makes sense to me.
BF
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Registered: 02/22/06
Posts: 117
Loc: Central Arkansas
It seems like there might be some confusion as to the message of my original post. It's late but I'm passionate and will try to clarify.
Notice that I did not, in fact, say anything in regards to curing a problem, as you state in your discussion of pharmaceutical companies. However, you quoted me correctly as saying that a problem "could easily be helped..." and also accurately state the point that there are no drugs being developed to cure mental illness as they do not exist. Psychotropic medications are for symptoms not problems.
I also agree with your point that psychology is a young, developing science that is "firming up." Psychology began as the study of the mind and emotion, a very nebulous and volatile conceptualization of the topic, and only since the '60s has come to be known as the study of observable behavior and the supposition of its causes.
As I am a therapist, I have a better than average understanding of the limitations of psychiatric treatment for mental illness with psychotic features. I pick up where those limitations leave off with my evidence based and empirical data-driven treatment on a day-to-day-basis. Actually, a great thing about psychiatry nowadays is that the field (or at least the MDs I work with each week) recognizes its limitations as described by the body of research and so chooses to use medication as a means to an end much as a knee brace acutely helps physical therapy be more effective in the long-term.
Clear as mud? That was all sort of a digression, anyways. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
The intent of my original post was to say that it would be a shame if this man or someone like him were to be put down without the opportunity to be "confined and treated."
Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Quote:
It seems like there might be some confusion as to the message of my original post. It's late but I'm passionate and will try to clarify.
No, you were clear, I posted a few of my "Thoughts" on the subject. It's a subject that I have thought a lot about, and researched the answers to questions I've had, as well as kept somewhat up to date on the progress made.
It wasn't my intention to dismiss the info or questions you raised with your post, I only wanted to post my thoughts about them. You deal with these conditions on a professional level regularly, I've dealt with them on a more personal level. I've watched a doctor shoot up someone I loved with Haloperidol. My confidence in doctors and prescription drugs were not the same afterward.
I think it's very relevant to the subject at hand as I believe that anyone that commits a brutal murder is mentally unstable. That should be a legal definition of the term.
I'll add, while I believe that the current treatments are crude and not very effective, I don't have a better solution and I do have a great deal of respect for those therapists like yourself who work with those affected daily. That's a tough job, and there aren't many tougher or more important, so let me personally thank you here and now.
I believe that anyone that commits a brutal murder is mentally unstable.
A sociopath is not crazy--he knows right from wrong. A sociopath [think Ted Bundy] is someone who has no regard for others except to fulfill his own selfish desires. Sick? No. Evil? Yes.
Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Quote:
A sociopath is not crazy--he knows right from wrong. A sociopath [think Ted Bundy] is someone who has no regard for others except to fulfill his own selfish desires. Sick? No. Evil? Yes.
I still think they are mentally unstable. I don't know about "Sick", especially if that implies that they might currently be cured. If it implies that there could have been an outside influence that caused one to become a sociopath than I would concede that's a possibility. "Evil", I certainly agree with no matter what.
Registered: 02/22/06
Posts: 117
Loc: Central Arkansas
To be fair, Bill mentioned neither sociopaths nor crazy people in his post and did not state that mentally unstable individuals cannot be sociopathic. It seemed that he was simply stating that murdering someone indicates that the murderer likely has a deficit in coping, reality testing, or decision making.
Bill,
It sounds like you've had some bad past experiences with psychiatric treatment in the past and that it has, quite understandably, left a bad taste in your mouth (no pun intended what with the discussion of medication and all <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />). Offered as an encouragement rather than a refutation: I have had the pleasure already in my short career of working with some very professional and talented child/adolescent psychiatrists and hope that their philosophy of practice and their conceptualization of problems and their treatment is indicative of a current trend in the field.
I'm really glad we got to exchange ideas and appreciate the spirit in which it was conducted. I hope I didn't come across as haughty or self-important.
Neither your nor anyone else's comments I believe have been 'self-important' in this discussion. Having hiked a trail, spent nights in a tent hearing those strange sounds outside in the dark, gives us that egocentric attitude toward this misguided individual who fortunately no longer is a threat to anyone on a trail or in a tent.
But when I think of the two people this man killed in 1981 -- that was 27 years ago -- were you born then? -- and the two he hurt but didn't kill recently, and then I put that against the number of people in the Miami area who were killed by robbers at fast-food restaurants or at home sleeping in the past couple of years -- say, the last 3 years -- well, seems like I should be much more paranoid waking up here tomorrow morning knowing that probably 20 or 30 times as many have died in the latter endeavors -- ordering an Egg McMuffin or sleeping in bed in Miami, than hiking/camping in a tent in a National Park, and should realize that my time in the wilderness is INFINITELY SAFER than walking around here in this urban-crime-zone, defined by the local C-of-C and Visitors Bureau as a chic and cool place.
For those rare, freakish incidents when a psychotic killer heads into the wilds, I'm still not sure a concealed weapon would be of ANY help.
seems like I should be much more paranoid waking up here tomorrow morning knowing that probably 20 or 30 times as many have died in the latter endeavors -- ordering an Egg McMuffin or sleeping in bed in Miami, than hiking/camping in a tent in a National Park, and should realize that my time in the wilderness is INFINITELY SAFER than walking around here in this urban-crime-zone, defined by the local C-of-C and Visitors Bureau as a chic and cool place.
I agree in that I am more concerned about the wolves in the city than in nature.
There have been a lot of comments, guessing and assumptions made about Smith's mental capacity. Really none of us know anything other than what the media reports which is not the most accurate source of information.
We do know that he was convicted of murdering two people in 1981 who were hiking as part of a fund raiser for "retarded and troubled youth." The media reports that he took a plea for second degree murder at the time because the prosecutor wasn't sure he had enough evidence to support a first degree murder conviction.
Smith either did not use an insanity defense or the court was not convinced that he was insane and he was sent to prison, not a mental institution. Prison is a place for people who have the capacity to know right from wrong. Mental institutions for the criminally insane are for people who commit crimes, but are determined to be incompetent to defend themselves in court by reasons of mental retardation or insanity and/or who do not know the difference between right and wrong. The court sentenced Smith to prison. Fifteen years for shooting and bludgeoning one person to death and shooting another person to death is light sentence in my opinion.
At least one thing is certain at this point. The AT Killer will not re-offend.
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