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#92773 - 03/18/08 03:02 PM Re: BE HONEST [Re: markshiker]
Paul_C Offline
member

Registered: 07/14/05
Posts: 506
Loc: Beaverton, Orygun
On my last trip, with a liter and a half of water, a full paperback novel, Crocs for camp shoes, and insulated Aircore, extra GG Nightlite, and 4 days of food, I was at 27 pounds.

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Jeeper - NW mountain roamer

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#92774 - 03/18/08 04:30 PM Re: BE HONEST [Re: Aviprk]
wildthing Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/02
Posts: 984
Loc: Victoria, B.C.
You sure that is your true weight? Be honest now, if that is possible. I mean about the 169 pound body weight.


Edited by wildthing (03/18/08 04:31 PM)
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#92775 - 03/18/08 11:17 PM Re: BE HONEST [Re: wildthing]
fishEH Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 5
Sounds like some people are more concerned with bragging rights than with drawing a fair comparison. If you want bragging rights then go with the FSO weight. However, if honest comparisons is what you're after then trip length, weather conditions, topography, and personal preference variables must be taken into account. Comparing the FSO weight of someone going on a 3 day trip to that of someone on an 8 day trip just isn't fair.

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#92776 - 03/19/08 05:52 AM Re: BE HONEST [Re: fishEH]
Mattress Offline
member

Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 109
Loc: Victoria, BC, Canada
For a really accurate comparison we'll need body mass index, velocity, bone density, backpack colour, and shoe size. Divide these by your IQ (which for most of us is our shoe size, so that part is easy), multiply by pie (blueberry), and add the last two digits of the year you were born.
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#92777 - 03/19/08 08:04 AM Re: BE HONEST [Re: fishEH]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Quote:
Sounds like some people are more concerned with bragging rights than with drawing a fair comparison. If you want bragging rights then go with the FSO weight. However, if honest comparisons is what you're after then trip length, weather conditions, topography, and personal preference variables must be taken into account. Comparing the FSO weight of someone going on a 3 day trip to that of someone on an 8 day trip just isn't fair.


Yeah, I see what you're getting at. But see, the thing for me is, I'm *not* concerned with bragging rights, and the fact is you can shuffle weight from those base weights off into the consumables section, which you then don't count (you can trade warmth for extra calories) - all for (guess what) bragging rights. Base weights do not consider the environment either, so my base weight for 3 season trips in the Canadian rockies can be quite different than someone in Arizona. So while I think yes, if we really want to be into bragging rights, base weights may be a closer comparison, realisticly I think they are also deceptive without the context. Just consider for a minute a nice light base weight that you say "wow that's light, you could go for months" - but the response is "well that's just my base weight for a 2 day
trip in nice weather, I don't cook and eat nothing but clif bars - if I was out for longer I'd take a stove
and cooking gear" - without the context, and what *else* is being carried the base is useless.

Charles's very nice examples on the board for beginners (the 18 pound 3 day, and 27 pound 7 day packs) include that context, and I think are a reasonably useful way of presenting something like this.
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#92778 - 03/19/08 10:34 AM Re: BE (really) HONEST [Re: markshiker]
300winmag Offline
member

Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 1342
Loc: Nevada, USA
I agree with "fish" and "phat". I've seen many weights thrown around here but no real standards for fair comparison.
SO...we need to agree upon just what we're carrying for valid comparisons. (Yes, the agreeing is the hard part here.)


FOR EXAMPLE:

TRIP LENGTH> six days (W/five nights) - period (This is mainly for fuel calculation)

SEASON/TEMP RANGE> summer at 50 F to 90 F

SHELTER> At least a tarp(AND ground cloth), hammock or bivy.

CLOTHING> One change of underwear & socks and one insulating item like a light vest which can be used to extend sleeping bag temp. range. These are absolute minimums for clothing.

SLEEPING> Bag or quilt and at least a 3/4 length mattress of some sort.

PACK> minimum size 2,500 cu. in.(?) or whatever ya kin git yer stuff to fit in.

COOKING> One pot, one cup, one utensil, one stove, fuel (includes tinder for wood stoves) and "fire starter" like lighter, matches, etc.

RAIN GEAR> Poncho or parka minimum. Pants/gaiters if ya like (NO Gatewood Cape/shelter deals.) (Quit whining!)

FIRST AID & BLISTER KIT> your choice, your risk

HEADLAMP/FLASHLIGHT/SPARE BATTERIES> It may be tiny but it's gotta be there.

WATER PURIFICATION> If ya boil ya gotta consider fuel/tinder.

WATER CONTAINER(S)> Can't carry it in yer hat!

ROUTEFINGING STUFF> Map, compass (and - but not OR - GPS if ya like)

TOILET KIT> of some sort.

That's it! No consumables weight, no water weight, no "what yer wearing" weight,
Just what equipment yer carryin' weight.

These suggestions say that ALL must carry some version of what is listed. Yes, I realize you may use a poncho/tarp combo but most don't. Yes I know many won't take a map or compass on a blazed trail. But remember we are COMPAIRING and these are COMPARISON STANDARDS of necessities for non-risky travel.

Eric


Edited by 300winmag (03/19/08 10:38 AM)
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#92779 - 03/19/08 10:37 AM Re: BE (really) HONEST [Re: 300winmag]
Paul_C Offline
member

Registered: 07/14/05
Posts: 506
Loc: Beaverton, Orygun
Quote:

SEASON/TEMP RANGE> summer at 50 F to 90 F


Maybe in Nevada. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In summer it can easily get to 40 (from a 95 degree day) here in the Cascades.
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#92780 - 03/19/08 12:12 PM Re: BE (really) HONEST [Re: 300winmag]
ringtail Offline
member

Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 2296
Loc: Colorado Rockies
Eric,

I hardly ever carry rain gear. My poncho and a wind shirt are all I need. The poncho IS my rainfly on the hammock or my shelter depending on the trip.

I drink my cocoa from a 20 oz. Gatorade bottle that I also use while I hike. I think BearPaw uses the same technique with a 16 oz. Nalgene.

In the hammock I seldom carry a pad.

Since the stove canister weight is considered a consumable then I should not have to count the weight of the alcohol container.

I have been snowed on during the day on the 4th of July. I think a 3 season kit has to take you to freezing.

I think a camera should be a part of base weight.

Thank you for a very good start at establishing standards.

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#92781 - 03/19/08 03:36 PM Re: BE (really) HONEST [Re: 300winmag]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada

>SEASON/TEMP RANGE> summer at 50 F to 90 F

Heh. not here kimo - summer has to get me to freezingish and a little below <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

>SHELTER> At least a tarp(AND ground cloth), hammock or bivy.

Ground cloth.. bah.... may will disagree here if they take full pads.

>CLOTHING> One change of underwear & socks and one insulating item like a light vest which can be used to extend sleeping bag temp. range. These are absolute minimums for clothing.

Underwear? I though commando was lighter...

PACK> minimum size 2,500 cu. in.(?) or whatever ya kin git yer stuff to fit in.

2500? bah, I did 5 night trips last year on an 1800 CI pack. interestingly your choice of
timing matters here, on a 6 night out trip, I'd have had to resort to a bigger one.

>COOKING> One pot, one cup, one utensil, one stove, fuel (includes tinder for wood stoves) and "fire >starter" like lighter, matches, etc.

Cup? that's what the pot is for.. isn't fuel consumable?

>RAIN GEAR> Poncho or parka minimum. Pants/gaiters if ya like (NO Gatewood Cape/shelter deals.) >(Quit whining!)

I can think of lots of places I'd just do a windshirt and fleece.

>WATER PURIFICATION> If ya boil ya gotta consider fuel/tinder.

but it's consumable!!!! so I can have 3 litres of gas to save 125 ml of aquamira and my base
weight is lower!

>ROUTEFINGING STUFF> Map, compass (and - but not OR - GPS if ya like)

I never take this on posted trails I'm familiar with. I do elsewhere.

>TOILET KIT> of some sort.

Again - consumables.....

>That's it! No consumables weight, no water weight, no "what yer wearing" weight,
>Just what equipment yer carryin' weight.

You're counting fuel and TP, Tinder, etc. all consumables - at least judging by some of the
"mine is smaller than yours" base weight lists I've seen out there.

>These suggestions say that ALL must carry some version of what is listed. Yes, I realize you may >use a poncho/tarp combo but most don't. Yes I know many won't take a map or compass on a >blazed trail. But remember we are COMPAIRING and these are COMPARISON STANDARDS of >necessities for non-risky travel.

I don't think in particular a ponch/tarp combo is that far out there. I see where you're going, but I think then the comparison standards become somewhat restricting too. One of the reasons many of us are lighter is we trade on experience and a knowledge of where we are going to stay safe and comfy with less gear. Otherwise you get into the realm of carrying solar stills in the canadian rockies in case you get stuck without water - or my frobisher parka in arizona in case an ice age hits while you're out. Yes, I'm being somewhat ridiculous, but it's just taking the "standards" to the nth degree of the standards that have boy scout weight people taking cameras, a copy of their field guide, a rambo knife, GPS, cell phone, laptop, and expresso machine "just in case" - and I may take every single one
of those items on certain trips with certain goals in mind. Just definately not usually.

To me, context is everything. I'd much rather see lists like on the left side, with a general "notion" of
where and what they are to be used for, with a good idea of *everything* than base weights out of
context, and I don't think you can make one context for all - Certainly you'll have issues jamming people like Me, up north, with a context useful for Brum in mexico. Or frankly, even me and someone
from BC like mattress - For example, your specification of a ground cloth - I can and have slept under a poncho tarp in the rockies on a ccf pad. no ground cloth. In many of the places I go there I know this is absolutely fine in Alberta, where I'm going to have well drained decent ground to do it on. - Go to coastal BC and there's no way I'd do it - I'd want me a ground cloth. For that matter if there's fruit spiders forget it, I wanna be in my hammock, but that's my irrational phobias kicking in again..
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Winter list.
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#92782 - 03/19/08 04:22 PM Re: BE (really) HONEST [Re: phat]
Mattress Offline
member

Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 109
Loc: Victoria, BC, Canada
There is no magic bullet for comparison, but I think what's more fun is to show "before and after" lists.. compare what you were like before lightening up. What are some of the advantages? Where have you gone that you couldn't get to before? What are mornings like now, compared to before? How many people have you converted to light-weight status? How many miles a day is enjoyable now, compared to before? etc.

I got a bit of flack for posting my gear list (and because it was under 10 pounds and lacked some items) but I don't think anyone should feel bad for posting their gear list. Amongst the flack, I got some good advice and tips, and hopefully it gave other people inspiration too.
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#92783 - 03/19/08 04:45 PM Re: BE HONEST [Re: markshiker]
Trailrunner Offline
member

Registered: 01/05/02
Posts: 1835
Loc: Los Angeles
Quote:
I don't think its fair when people don't list everything because they are wearing it at first then remove it and it's in there pack for the majority of the trip. C'mon be honest what's your true weight?


Fair? That word in your context implies some sort of competition. I backpack to get way from competition. When I want to compete I enter sanctioned, structured events where everyone is subject to the same written, objective rules.

If this is a competition, where is the rule book?

It's only a "fair" competition if everyone is competing, and competing under the same rules. That's never going to happen. As others have said, there are just too many variables to draw a "fair" comparison.

I do care about weight and I do weigh my pack. But when I see someone with a lighter pack I don't get jealous. Honestly. I just don't see the point in comparing my pack to anyone else's.

There's no way on this earth I'm going to be comfortable in camp with a 5 pound pack. If I'm not comfortable I'm not having fun. And if I'm not having fun I don't see the point in going out. If I want to suffer I'll enter a race.

Realistically, I'm not going to cover fewer miles, be less comfortable, or go much slower with a 15 pound pack than with a 5 pound pack.

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#92784 - 03/19/08 05:34 PM Re: BE (really) HONEST [Re: phat]
300winmag Offline
member

Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 1342
Loc: Nevada, USA
Phat,

AHA! Now we get down to personal weight "shaving" preferences.

i.e. no cup, no groundcloth, "going commando", etc.

And to each his or her own. So we'll never get the broad beyond definitions of weight categories such as "Skin Out Weight" or "Non Consumable Pack Weight".

But when someone says, "THIS is my fantastically low pack weight." and does not carry rain gear or a mattress or a first aid kit, etc. etc., then they are only fooling themselves when it gets really wet or cold or they are hurt.

Sure, experience counts for the ability to leave a FEW items at home on a FEW trips. But like the "Lighten UP" book shows, in the cartoons of the various types of light weight backpackers, the guy with a tiny 5 lb. pack is a bit looney looking...and acting

There is light and there is dangerously light by omission of "safety" items.

And like the title of this thread, being "HONEST", both with yourself and with others, about just how you achieved that light(er) pack weight is paramount for a valid discussion. Me? I 'fess up that I achieved my light pack weight mainly by spending on such expensive items as $100. SteriPens, $350. WM down bags, etc.

Eric
_________________________
"There are no comfortable backpacks. Some are just less uncomfortable than others."

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#92785 - 03/19/08 06:16 PM Re: BE (really) HONEST [Re: 300winmag]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Quote:
Phat,

AHA! Now we get down to personal weight "shaving" preferences.

i.e. no cup, no groundcloth, "going commando", etc.

And to each his or her own. So we'll never get the broad beyond definitions of weight categories such as "Skin Out Weight" or "Non Consumable Pack Weight".

But when someone says, "THIS is my fantastically low pack weight." and does not carry rain gear or a mattress or a first aid kit, etc. etc., then they are only fooling themselves when it gets really wet or cold or they are hurt.

Sure, experience counts for the ability to leave a FEW items at home on a FEW trips. But like the "Lighten UP" book shows, in the cartoons of the various types of light weight backpackers, the guy with a tiny 5 lb. pack is a bit looney looking...and acting

There is light and there is dangerously light by omission of "safety" items.

And like the title of this thread, being "HONEST", both with yourself and with others, about just how you achieved that light(er) pack weight is paramount for a valid discussion. Me? I 'fess up that I achieved my light pack weight mainly by spending on such expensive items as $100. SteriPens, $350. WM down bags, etc.

Eric


That much, yes I'll agree with. I just think dangerously light is really context dependant on the location and the individual. And FWIW, the only thing I normally go without is a groundcloth, and then only because I hammock <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I have a really crappy light plastic cup
(although I could easily go without). And I also don't go commando <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.
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My 3 season gear list
Winter list.
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#92786 - 03/19/08 06:40 PM Re: BE (really) HONEST [Re: phat]
tchiker Offline
member

Registered: 08/28/06
Posts: 162
Loc: Atlanta, GA, USA
This thread brings up a good point....every ounce does count and that is whether it is in your pack or in your pockets or what you are wearing or even the extra fat around your midsection. All should be taken into account.

But I know your main point is that people's claims of low pack wait should be greeted with some skepticism because people "fudge" the numbers, either intentionally or otherwise.

Good point.

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#92787 - 03/19/08 06:46 PM Re: BE (really) HONEST [Re: tchiker]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada


Oh, I dunno, some intentionally, some not. I'm tempted to go put together a SUL list
from my gear - I don't claim to be in such a category, but I bet I could be pretty easy..

The difference is I would *not* be comfortable doing it. My gear list (see my profile)
is light, but definately not ultra (mega, giga, whatever). There's still stuff I could toss
out of that pack if I wanted to be uncomfortable, but surviving.

Everyone has their own idea of at what point they are uncomfortable.
_________________________
Any fool can be uncomfortable...
My 3 season gear list
Winter list.
Browse my pictures


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#92788 - 03/19/08 07:03 PM Re: BE (really) HONEST [Re: 300winmag]
markshiker Offline
newbie

Registered: 03/16/08
Posts: 8
and that's really my point i think ultra- lite backpackers are an elite group. I have learned so much from forums. But I just want to go out with the least amount of gear (on most of my trips) Ido family and friends trips that I take extra gear but I started this forum stating people to be honest about what they bring out. Mainly false conceptions of what others might perceive as a true weight to follow
does anyone get what i'm tryin to say?

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#92789 - 03/19/08 09:32 PM Re: BE (really) HONEST [Re: Paul_C]
demo Offline
member

Registered: 04/07/04
Posts: 221
Loc: Arkansan displaced in the PNW
Quote:
In summer it can easily get to 40 (from a 95 degree day) here in the Cascades.


My first trip up and around Mt. Rainier after I moved had me learning that _very_ quickly.
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#92790 - 03/20/08 03:15 AM Re: BE (really) HONEST [Re: markshiker]
ringtail Offline
member

Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 2296
Loc: Colorado Rockies
Quote:
i think ultra- lite backpackers are an elite group.


I do not believe ultra-lighters are an elite group. There are many members of this forum that have the skill and gear to hike ultra-light, BUT choose to hike lightweight.

I started the lighten up process around my 50th birthday because I realized if I am going to hike another quarter century that I needed to carry less.

Simplfying and decluttering is another powerful motivation.

While I am able and have hiked super ultralight it is not my choice because:

I do not like to sleep in the same clothes I hike in.

I like to have a robust enough shelter to camp high and exposed.

I am willing to carry the extra weight to sleep in a hammock.

I carry a 3 cup pot so I can boil a pint rather than boil a cup twice.

I carry gear because I enjoy using it and not because I am afraid to be in the backcountry without it. "What if" adds less than a pound to my pack.

US water is cleaner now than it was in the 60s. The Clean Water Act was passed in 1972. I drank untreated water in the 60s and supect it would be safer today, BUT I use treatment anyhow.

The super ultra lighters are not elite - they have made a choice. Hiking with a sub 5 pound base weight is a challenge, but once you have the T-shirt you are free to pursue you own goals.


Edited by food (03/20/08 03:20 AM)

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#92791 - 03/20/08 06:25 AM Re: BE (really) HONEST [Re: ringtail]
ringtail Offline
member

Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 2296
Loc: Colorado Rockies
Ok, I will soften my opinion. Maybe it is a matter of definition.

I consider base weight to be technique. For example the owner of zpacks hiked the PCT with a sub 5 pound base weight. His accomplishment was hiking the PCT using the SUL technique.

Elite infers competition. Maybe I get that from the sports "elite eight."

IMO anyone that is willing to put in the time, energy and money can master the SUL technique. If you join the armed forces special operations they will even pay you to master the SUL technique (M16 and ammo is not a part of base weight.)

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#92792 - 03/20/08 07:24 AM Re: BE (really) HONEST [Re: 300winmag]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
I think you are trying to make a really good point. But, I think it is too much. It might be OK for bragging rights, but not for educational purposes. Here is my attempt to steal your idea with a little less.

TRIP LENGTH> six days (W/five nights) - period (This is mainly for fuel calculation)

AO> area of operations and time of year.

Count consumables. I think this is important because this is were a lot of weight can be shaved or added. Sure, the big three are important, but you can have a sub 5lb big 3 and still carry a 50lber.

Count items carried out of pack ie. shoes, clothes worn....

By listing the AO and counting consumables, I think a lot is evened out. Phat might carry more gear in summer to stay warm, but Pika would probably carry more water. It would be interesting to see how it turns out.

Just my take on things. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
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#92793 - 03/20/08 07:58 AM Re: BE HONEST [Re: Trailrunner]
DTape Offline
member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 666
Loc: Upstate NY
I know it isn't a competition for me. Neither is it bragging rights. In fact I don't even tell anyone what my weight is that I carry on any particular trip. The only reason I use a FSO as a metric is because it IS only for me. If I have to choose between one gear list and another, and I want the weight of them, then I need a complete list of everything including consumables. I am honest with myself of what I am carrying. I do not need to worry about geography or terrain since that is a constant for me on that trip. The only variable is the weight I will be carrying, and that must include everything. One reason is the weight mike make a difference in the number of miles I will be able to do. My body does not care if it in my pack or in my pocket.

I now see what others are saying in this thread because I suppose some others do compare with each other. That idea is foreign to me, which is why I initially answered as I did.
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#92794 - 03/20/08 09:52 AM Re: BE (really) HONEST [Re: 300winmag]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2865
Loc: California
Summer 50-90??? My backpack conditions are NEVER that warm. Herein lies the problem with "setting a standard".

Let's just say:

lighter = better -- MUST be subject to safety
ligher = better -- OPTIONALLY subject to comfort
lighter = better -- ONLY IF you are still having fun!

Safety is a must; comfort is an option; fun is the whole point of going backpacking. "safety", "comfort" and "fun" are all subjective. Each person has his own threshold for each criterion. And backpacking is quite regional -what works in one place will not work in another.

Over time, we should ALL be striving to lighten our packs. The UL folks test a product and when it works, I try to adopt it myself! I am actually grateful for all the new UL gear out there, even though I choose not go totally UL myself.

As far as "honesty". Well, once you put on the pack and start up the hill dishonesty will become aparant! I weigh all my stuff for each trip because it is SO easy to slip in "just one more thing" an soon end up with an ugly uncomfortable pack. Rarely do I have justification for a 60# pound pack. (Exception is a long backcountry technical climbing expedition).

Put this into perspective. I started backpacking in 1966. Our boots alone weighed 5 pounds! Although our gear was heavier, we took less items. No GPS. No bear cannisters. We cooked on fires. No stoves or gas. Ironic thing is that tarps were quite popular back then. A pack weight of 40 pounds was considered light. 70 pound packs were not that unusual. A lot of us started backpacking with military surplus gear. Now I look at a 45 pound pack as heavy and do not consider my pack light until it reachs 20 pounds. Now, that is progess! Not only is it progress, it allows me to continue backpacking as I age. It is a miracle!

UL is not new. I always think of John Muir as the ultimate UL hiker with his woolen coat, probably 10 pounds, but little more than a pocket full of biscuits - who would go out for days. He made beds of tree limbs (not exactly considered environmentally kosher today!). People were tough back then. They were weaned on discomfort. We are a bit spoiled nowadays. John Muir simply accepted cold uncomfortable nights as a given. People in general in John Muir's day had a very high threshold for discomfort and risk.

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#92795 - 03/20/08 07:51 PM Re: BE HONEST [Re: markshiker]
markshiker Offline
newbie

Registered: 03/16/08
Posts: 8
be honest is still an honest question my question is what is your ultra or super ultra i have a given weight that i like to acheive no matter what but like i said before i have family and friends cond. my point is if you carry it 99% percent of the time cmon ut it into your base

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#92796 - 03/21/08 05:01 PM Re: BE (really) HONEST [Re: phat]
300winmag Offline
member

Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 1342
Loc: Nevada, USA
I like the U.S. Army Ranger unofficial motto: "Travel light, freeze at night."

That about says it all for the UUL sub 10 lb. lunatic fringe.

Of course the Rangers aren't REALLY traveling light, what with rifles, ammo, grenades, Claymore mines, flares, etc., etc. They sleep in ponchos with quilted liners. (Aarrrggghh!) huddled in groups for more warmth.
_________________________
"There are no comfortable backpacks. Some are just less uncomfortable than others."

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#92797 - 03/21/08 05:20 PM Re: BE (really) HONEST [Re: 300winmag]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3983
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Hey Winni
Comon dude, some of my best nights sleep was under a pile of claymores. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> OOps we were being honest. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

There is way too much competition with little real even comparison. There is one major difference - to some it matters - to some it doesn't and they don't wish to compete but still go as light as they want. I think most of us after a while want to warm and dry when we camp elst wise why not stay at the lodge by the fire? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Also most of us go for some reason other to say we went UL, <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> so we carry some mission hardware, like a camera or some other toys. You have to be stripped of luxeries and toys to be UL. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
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These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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