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#205747 - 07/23/21 06:29 PM Boil in a bottle?
DustinV Offline
member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 148
Loc: Lakewood, CO
Has anyone tried boiling water in a titanium bottle? Is there some way to stabilize one on a canister stove?

A few years ago, I found a cheap, promotional stainless bottle in the cabinet that was very thin-walled and even had a silicone band near the top. It fit down into my conical wood stove/windscreen so I used an alcohol stove to boil some water in it. I remember it was very fast, but the silicone band did nothing to protect my fingers. I figure a leather glove or small pliers might work for picking up the bottle, but if anyone has a better idea, please let me know.

It seems like it would be useful to be able to boil water in the bottle since I generally bring dehydrated meals on overnights and then I could leave the pot at home. I'll probably try the old bottle on my next overnight to prove the concept, but I worry a little about the lid and the mystery steel.

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#205748 - 07/23/21 07:06 PM Re: Boil in a bottle? [Re: DustinV]
Glenn Roberts Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 2118
Loc: Southwest Ohio
It's a simple question: does the bottle weigh more than the pot and water bottle (if applicable) it replaces?

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#205749 - 07/23/21 09:30 PM Re: Boil in a bottle? [Re: DustinV]
Arizona Offline
member

Registered: 02/26/02
Posts: 255
Loc: The Southwestern Deserts
I’ve not used my titanium bottles on a canister stove but one must take into account a narrower vessel will be inefficient at boiling water. In all my tests the diameter of the vessel made much more of an impact on performance than the material. In short my titanium bottles will need much more fuel than a wider pot for boiling.

But I bet you could get it to boil. I can see how it would be teetery and toddery up on a canister stove. Might pose a serious risk.

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#205750 - 07/24/21 11:26 AM Re: Boil in a bottle? [Re: Arizona]
DustinV Offline
member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 148
Loc: Lakewood, CO
That's what I was hoping someone had solved; a way to stabilize a bottle on a canister stove, since it will probably be a long time before alcohol stoves are allowed most places in the West.

The test burn, years ago, had the bottle fitting down into a Vargo Hexagon which kept it stable and low and channeled heat like a caldera cone. It seemed to work very well, but I was worried about the cheap steel so I never used it. The cheap bottle also had a weird outer threaded cap which means that I was stuck with the one cap.

I thought maybe someone had tried a bottle on a Whisperlite or something with a remote canister, but it sounds like not. I may try some stuff, and if I come up with anything, I'll post here.

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#205751 - 07/24/21 01:19 PM Re: Boil in a bottle? [Re: DustinV]
Arizona Offline
member

Registered: 02/26/02
Posts: 255
Loc: The Southwestern Deserts
Well it’s flooding here today. Extroidinary drought then water, water everywhere. They have shut down most of the canyons so people don’t get washed away.

I have seen first hand a tall, narrow titanium Snow Peak mini solo cook set pot on an Optima Crux canister stove. It has a very small diameter burner. It heated up everything and never tipped over. But that pot has handles making it easier to pick up. I think your experimenting is a good idea and will be productive.

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#205757 - 07/29/21 10:56 AM Re: Boil in a bottle? [Re: DustinV]
BZH Offline
member

Registered: 01/26/11
Posts: 1147
Loc: Madison, AL
For a standard canister top stove it would definetly be a safety hazard. Even if you were able to attach it securely to the stove that would just make the whole contraption tippy. Lot's of people do this with alcohol stoves (as you mentioned the caldera cone). I think the key to efficiency is having the windshield extend up the sides of the bottle (.... just like a caldera cone). I think what you are looking for is a Caldera Cone type windscreen for a remote canister stove. I don't know of one of the top of my head. It will be intersting to see what you come up with.

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#205758 - 07/29/21 05:14 PM Re: Boil in a bottle? [Re: BZH]
Arizona Offline
member

Registered: 02/26/02
Posts: 255
Loc: The Southwestern Deserts
BZH that is an excellent idea with the Caldera Cone. I use a version of it for my Snow Peak 1400 titanium cook set for its high versatility. I bought the entire Caldera Cone setup more than 10 years ago. The wood burning insert works perfectly for a windscreen with my Kovea remote canister stove and that pot. I just need to turn the titanium insert/windscreen upside down. The fit is amazingly perfect like the larger correct cone, tight to the pot and plenty of ventilation with its precut slots top and bottom. It is super efficient for long, low simmering. It works perfectly with the Trangia stove too for long, low simmers with the excellent simmering ring.

Since all canister stoves and titanium bottles are different this would be proprietary for each individual setup including the tippiness factor.

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#205763 - 07/30/21 08:04 PM Re: Boil in a bottle? [Re: Arizona]
DustinV Offline
member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 148
Loc: Lakewood, CO
I'm going to try one of my current stoves with a canister stabilizer to see if that is viable at all. It would be a cheap experiment and I was thinking of grabbing one anyway.

I was also looking at a remote canister stove, which would be lower, more stable, and allow me to safely put some kind of cone around the burner. It might also be a nice stove to have if I wake up to very cold temps, which does sometimes happen in CO.

Either way, the titanium bottle is the biggest problem. Looking at them online, I am not seeing anything that comes with either a sport or a straw cap. I feel like the whole setup is built around a bottle that I might hate because I'd have to unscrew it for every sip. I sent a question to the folks at Vargo about this, and they did reply with more questions, which was hopeful. I hope they come up with something because I get the feeling that a screw-top-only is a non-starter for a lot of people. Maybe they'd sell more ti bottles if they were more versatile.

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#205769 - 08/02/21 12:43 PM Re: Boil in a bottle? [Re: DustinV]
BZH Offline
member

Registered: 01/26/11
Posts: 1147
Loc: Madison, AL
That is an intersting conundrum. I see plenty of stainless steel bottles with sipping/drinking lids, but none in Ti. Then I thought maybe you could get a Ti bottle that has the same threads as an ss bottle. Buy both and repurpose the lids, but I can't find a company that makes both frown It doesn't appear like REI even sells a Ti water bottle where you might be able to try and find a fitting cap in the store. Perhaps you could bring the Ti bottle to REI and see if you could find a bottle with a matching threaded lid?

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#205771 - 08/02/21 03:37 PM Re: Boil in a bottle? [Re: BZH]
DustinV Offline
member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 148
Loc: Lakewood, CO
Yeah, I may have to do just that. I'd hate to buy something and then find out that there's a different bottle that has available drink caps.

I'm still going to step through some quasi-scientific testing. It's just tricky to get the time and money to gather the gear. Going to pick up the canister stand tonight, as it looks like REI has them back in stock.

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#205794 - 08/09/21 01:47 PM Re: Boil in a bottle? [Re: DustinV]
DustinV Offline
member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 148
Loc: Lakewood, CO
I had a few minutes to myself over the weekend so I dug out my SP GigaPower stove, the SP windscreen and my new canister legs. The stove is short and has a small burner head, so marginally less tippy and better for a small diameter bottle. The legs are very wide, so that should keep the stove from tipping.

The SP windscreen fits around the bottom of the burner head and has slots for the legs to go through and has a small lip. My vision is to build a cone-shaped piece that will fit inside the lip of the windscreen and hug the bottle a few inches up to both channel heat and stabilize the bottle.

I roughly cut up one soda can for cone material and manually molded. With only one can, I was not able to make a cone that would fit all the way around the bottle, so it ended up being half a cone.

The test was a failure, but I learned some stuff. First, I learned that I will need to sand off any paint, as this caught fire briefly and probably exacerbated the second issue, which was that the aluminum deformed visibly in the heat. I think I'm gonna need stronger metal. Maybe a soup can for continued prototyping.

Oh, and just for reference, two cups of water boiled in about 3 1/2 minutes on 3/4 power


Edited by DustinV (08/09/21 01:48 PM)

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#205797 - 08/10/21 02:36 PM Re: Boil in a bottle? [Re: DustinV]
Arizona Offline
member

Registered: 02/26/02
Posts: 255
Loc: The Southwestern Deserts
Excellent experiments. I’ve had that same stove and windscreen for around 20 years and used it zillions of times. It still works. I’ve moved on to the remote Kovea but tried my ti bottle on it after your thread and didn’t find it safe enough. It is really intended for a wider vessel. It will be interesting to see what you come up with.

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#205800 - 08/11/21 12:16 PM Re: Boil in a bottle? [Re: Arizona]
DustinV Offline
member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 148
Loc: Lakewood, CO
I have to admit it was a little scary to see the soda can burning and visibly waving a few feet from my face. I did have gloves, pliers and water handy, though. Safety third!

I also wasn't excited how little margin of error there was in the placement of the bottle on the stands, thus the design requirement for a cone to center and stabilize the bottle.

I also want so I do want to see if I can find a much shorter remote canister stove, but that will have to wait for the minister of finance to approve.

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#205852 - 09/14/21 05:02 PM Re: Boil in a bottle? [Re: DustinV]
DustinV Offline
member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 148
Loc: Lakewood, CO
I was able to nab a remote-canister stove (Fire-Maple Blade 2) and try out the bottle on top of it. While the stove itself is very stable, the bottle stability still isn't great. For this particular combo, the arms have to be folded in and the indented area on the bottom of the bottle centers the bottle, but it's still tenuous.

I don't have an old windscreen to wrap around, and I've found that aluminum cans melt too easily, so I'll have to dig out some flashing or other durable metal to concentrate the heat into a smaller area.

I think this is one of those, 'Don't try this at camp, kids!' kind of situations. Still fun, though.

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#205853 - 09/14/21 05:40 PM Re: Boil in a bottle? [Re: DustinV]
Glenn Roberts Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 2118
Loc: Southwest Ohio
It also might be appropriate to point out here that that women are smarter than men because you almost never meet women who are missing fingers. smile

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#206085 - 01/16/22 05:48 PM Re: Boil in a bottle? [Re: DustinV]
Arizona Offline
member

Registered: 02/26/02
Posts: 255
Loc: The Southwestern Deserts
This setup is working well for me but don’t know about a tall narrow water bottle. It from an older tri-ti Caldera Cone, the wood burner insert turned upside down. When I use the mesh grate they send with the wood burner option even a smaller cup works stable and safe. The Trangia is under there with the simmer ring working. It is a very efficient and versatile combo.


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#206086 - 01/17/22 02:24 PM Re: Boil in a bottle? [Re: Arizona]
DustinV Offline
member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 148
Loc: Lakewood, CO
What's the diameter of that cup? I can't quite make out the marking on the inside of the cup.

That setup looks pretty similar (but much lighter) than a test I did with a Vargo Hexagon and a bottle inset, which I recall was very quick. And if I ever get to use an alcohol stove again...

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#206088 - 01/18/22 09:31 AM Re: Boil in a bottle? [Re: DustinV]
Arizona Offline
member

Registered: 02/26/02
Posts: 255
Loc: The Southwestern Deserts
The diameter of the 600 ml cup is 3.6”. The largest pot this setup will handle is the Snow Peak 1400. Some windscreens don’t have enough room for the simmer ring to work but it works at any configuration and degree with this windscreen. I think they want $45 for this at Trail Designs but they don’t use it like I do. It is supposed to be the wood burning insert to the larger cone.

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#206283 - 04/30/22 03:16 PM Re: Boil in a bottle? [Re: DustinV]
Arizona Offline
member

Registered: 02/26/02
Posts: 255
Loc: The Southwestern Deserts
Recently bought a Firebox Nano titanium stove that uses wood, Esbit, Trangia alcohol and Trangia canister fuel. This is my water bottle and is about as small diameter as they come. It feels stable enough for me with the feet all turned inward.



I really like the Trangia alcohol setup the best and me can fully use the simmer ring in the top, Nano pin configuration. Got a wonderful hot latte after low simmering for 15 minutes. I’m really digging it. I kind of want the remote canister line and burner for some crazy reason. It threads through and snaps in place, accepts MSR type iso/pro. They also offer a Lindal valve that converts it to a Colman canister burner. Maybe I better stick to 5e alcohol setup now that I’m using a 95% ethanol fuel. Lol

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#206286 - 05/02/22 09:48 AM Re: Boil in a bottle? [Re: Arizona]
DustinV Offline
member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 148
Loc: Lakewood, CO
That looks fun! I love the versatility of these folding wood burners. And Trangia burners. I have a Vargo Hexagon that I've used for wood and alcohol. I'd like to try it with a remote-canister I got last year, ironically to see if it would work better with a bottle balanced on it.

I am looking at the Firebox site, but I can't tell if you would be able to invert the canister for extra cold conditions. It looks like you should, since there is a heating tube next to the burner head, but make sure it's okay before you try.

Also, latte? I think I need to know how you're doing that. It would be really nice to have something better-tasting than instant coffee.

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#206289 - 05/02/22 06:10 PM Re: Boil in a bottle? [Re: DustinV]
Arizona Offline
member

Registered: 02/26/02
Posts: 255
Loc: The Southwestern Deserts
Did a search for Trangia Gas Burner Inverted and got an immediate hit with a guy going under the screen name Knobby. He encountered problems with pulsating flare ups. He had a whole thread on it. Then he did a video and no adjustments would prevent this dangerous behavior. So looks like a no go for inverting.
However he said the burner was made by Primus for Trangia and showed how extremely good it works in normal configuration. It goes from very intense to super low for simmering. I’ve used canister stoves for decades and never had a problem at all in my southwestern haunts. The propane they mix in does fine in the temps we use it, hardly ever below freezing. With a Lindal valve they are burning Pure propane in them now. I have not tried that yet. Propane has a boiling point of -40° so that should cover most areas even in winter but there would still be a couple colder. Lol

As for the latte, we use coconut milk, chocolate, various spices like cinnamon, turmeric, cardamom, cloves, sweetener, a a few ingredients like Maca powder or any other kind of favorite ingredient. One can use tea or coffee too. I’ve found powdered coconut milk in Asian stores but like it canned at home or near home.

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#206290 - 05/03/22 03:36 PM Re: Boil in a bottle? [Re: Arizona]
DustinV Offline
member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 148
Loc: Lakewood, CO
Bummer about no-go for inverted use. That was an important thing for me when I grabbed my remote-canister stove because it can turn from summer to winter on the same day, up high.

Even so, having a burner built into a windscreen like that looks really stable and well protected. How high is the bottle sitting in the pic above?

And your latte sounds more like milk-tea, which is also very good. I was imagining you were going to describe an Aeropress recipe.

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#206291 - 05/04/22 01:40 PM Re: Boil in a bottle? [Re: DustinV]
Arizona Offline
member

Registered: 02/26/02
Posts: 255
Loc: The Southwestern Deserts
The stove is about 4 7/8” from ground to top supports and the bottle is about 7 7/8” from bottom to the top of the lid. The bottle’s diameter is about 2.6”. I have two of those titanium bottles marked to hold 550 ml and another titanium bottle that holds 1.2 l and is bigger in diameter as well. Of coarse.

We make two of those “lattes” a day for both of us. I have an “awake” body chemistry so I don’t need coffee but we will have simple green tea twice a day as well. A portable stove is important and we do bake cakes and scones with the stove and Snow Peak 1400 pot and nesting bowl. It works real slick.

I have the Trangia gas burner on the way and figured out a super light windscreen of crafting foil to attach to the flame guard with miniature paper binding clips. It is rock solid in stiff wind, the windscreen will not budge. This works with the Trangia alcohol burner and will with the coming gas burner too. The heat is retained and focused on the pot. All my pots from 600 ml to 2 L work with this system.


Edited by Arizona (05/04/22 01:41 PM)

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#206293 - 05/04/22 06:32 PM Re: Boil in a bottle? [Re: Arizona]
DustinV Offline
member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 148
Loc: Lakewood, CO
I was looking at the Firebox site and it looks like the little box adds a lot of support to the bottom. I'll be curious what the distance between the burner head and pot will end up being when you get that.

I still want to dig out my Hexagon and see if the remote canister stove will fit inside. If that fits, it should allow the bottle to be recessed into the cone, which would be very stable and concentrate the heat. I'll try to dig that all out this weekend.

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#206294 - 05/05/22 02:12 PM Re: Boil in a bottle? [Re: DustinV]
Arizona Offline
member

Registered: 02/26/02
Posts: 255
Loc: The Southwestern Deserts
The x-case does add stability and if you are using it with wood fuel it acts as a dandy little fire pan. Some areas in the southwest require fire pans if you are burning wood. I like the extra safety because little coals do drop through the ventilation holes. Heavy crafting foil makes a good lightweight base so the wire feet don’t sink into the soft earth and sand. That saves some weight.

The Trangia alcohol burner boils the quickest when sitting on the floor of the Nano. At the top position using the Nano sticks the simmer ring can deploy in any position. I’m very happy with the overall performance there. They consider an alcohol stove an open fire in the National Forest and Parks here so it can’t be used in any fire ban.

One can burn LPG in a stage II fire ban. So the Trangia gas burner will be very useful under those restrictions which must be coming with our current severe drought. They say it should be here next week so I’ll measure the burner to pot clearance then. I chose free shipping so it’s USPS and they might get it here a couple days quicker but then again they have shipped some of my stuff to all corners of America before turning around and finding Arizona. Lol

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