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#205140 - 01/06/21 08:35 PM Question about down in a quilt
PaHiker Offline
member

Registered: 02/12/15
Posts: 144
Loc: Western Pa, USA
Looking at making a warm-weather quilt (~50F). I've seen lots of How-To's that show how to make one with horizontal baffles, and how to do the stuffing. None of them explains how to determine the amount of down needed. For a 50F quilt they suggest 1.5" baffles, but not how much down (850) is needed. Anyone know how to figure this out, or have a website that explains it?

Also, I've seen Karo baffles mentioned, but no explanation of what they are, how (if) they are better than vertical, or (for that matter) how to make and stuff them.
_________________________
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intent of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, worn out, and loudly proclaiming Wow! What a Ride!

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#205141 - 01/06/21 11:30 PM Re: Question about down in a quilt [Re: PaHiker]
the-gr8t-waldo Online   content
member

Registered: 01/16/11
Posts: 177
Loc: Tacoma, Washington
there was a formula/chart on "hammock forum"for this. I built myown quilt from the information...along with construction notes and susgestions. unfortunatly I've not been active on it for around four years now..anywho you might check there.


Edited by the-gr8t-waldo (01/06/21 11:37 PM)

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#205142 - 01/07/21 07:20 AM Re: Question about down in a quilt [Re: the-gr8t-waldo]
PaHiker Offline
member

Registered: 02/12/15
Posts: 144
Loc: Western Pa, USA
I found it before posting here, but it requires Microsoft Excel to work.
_________________________
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intent of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, worn out, and loudly proclaiming Wow! What a Ride!

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#205146 - 01/07/21 04:01 PM Re: Question about down in a quilt [Re: PaHiker]
BZH Online   content
member

Registered: 01/26/11
Posts: 1075
Loc: Madison, AL
I've never made a down garment, but I can say in general you need to calculate the volume of the filled baffles and divide it by the fill power of the down. So you know the thickness of the baffles (1.5") multiple that by the surface area of the garment (in in^2) to get the cubic inch volume of the filled volumes. Take that volume and divide it by the fill power (850 in^3/ounce) and that gives you the ounces you will need to just fill the baffle. Now, fill power is usually a marketing lie so you need to over fill the baffle to get it to remain nicely filled while in use. I believe I've heard 30% as a good overfill (so multiple the calculated number by 1.3).

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#205147 - 01/07/21 04:28 PM Re: Question about down in a quilt [Re: BZH]
PaHiker Offline
member

Registered: 02/12/15
Posts: 144
Loc: Western Pa, USA
Okay, so if I follow, here is what I get (all dimensions in inches):

Length.....72
Width......56
Sq In...4,032
Thickness...1.5
Cu In...6,048
850 Fill....7.1
Overfill....1.3
Total.......9.2
_________________________
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intent of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, worn out, and loudly proclaiming Wow! What a Ride!

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#205152 - 01/07/21 05:41 PM Re: Question about down in a quilt [Re: PaHiker]
the-gr8t-waldo Online   content
member

Registered: 01/16/11
Posts: 177
Loc: Tacoma, Washington
what's a "karo" baffel?..first time I've ever heard the name

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#205154 - 01/07/21 06:04 PM Re: Question about down in a quilt [Re: the-gr8t-waldo]
PaHiker Offline
member

Registered: 02/12/15
Posts: 144
Loc: Western Pa, USA
_________________________
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intent of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, worn out, and loudly proclaiming Wow! What a Ride!

Top
#205158 - 01/08/21 10:07 AM Re: Question about down in a quilt [Re: PaHiker]
BZH Online   content
member

Registered: 01/26/11
Posts: 1075
Loc: Madison, AL
Originally Posted By PaHiker
Okay, so if I follow, here is what I get (all dimensions in inches):

Length.....72
Width......56
Sq In...4,032
Thickness...1.5
Cu In...6,048
850 Fill....7.1
Overfill....1.3
Total.......9.2


That looks about right to me and seems to match up with industry. Enlightened Equipment's 40° quilt has 1.5" baffles. The Short/Wide is 72" long and 58" at the shoulders tapering to 42" at the feet. They stuff it with 9.44 oz. of 850 down: https://enlightenedequipment.com/revelation-custom/ (click on specs and choose 40°)

Since you are not tapering you might want to bump it up a smidge more. Of course the other thing to consider is that EE considers a 1.5" baffle good to 40°. They do use internal baffling so there won't be cold spots.

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#205160 - 01/08/21 11:39 AM Re: Question about down in a quilt [Re: BZH]
PaHiker Offline
member

Registered: 02/12/15
Posts: 144
Loc: Western Pa, USA
What do you/they mean by internal baffling? I plan on horizontal baffles instead of the vertical ones they are using. On my current quilt (primaloft) I use snaps to close up the footbox, probably going the same route, lighter than zippers or velcro, and not as scratchy on the feet if I'm not closing it up.
_________________________
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intent of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, worn out, and loudly proclaiming Wow! What a Ride!

Top
#205161 - 01/08/21 12:47 PM Re: Question about down in a quilt [Re: PaHiker]
BZH Online   content
member

Registered: 01/26/11
Posts: 1075
Loc: Madison, AL
The top fabric is not sewn to the bottom fabric. That creates a seam with no insulation. Fabric is sewn internally to maintain a constant thickness across quilt. I'm not sure how important it is in a warmer weather quilt.

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#205162 - 01/08/21 12:57 PM Re: Question about down in a quilt [Re: BZH]
PaHiker Offline
member

Registered: 02/12/15
Posts: 144
Loc: Western Pa, USA
Okay, so if I'm getting what you say, and from what I see on the photos, they create tubes on the top and bottom fabrics (offset from each other), stuff them, then sew the top and bottom together.
_________________________
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intent of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, worn out, and loudly proclaiming Wow! What a Ride!

Top
#205163 - 01/08/21 01:26 PM Re: Question about down in a quilt [Re: PaHiker]
the-gr8t-waldo Online   content
member

Registered: 01/16/11
Posts: 177
Loc: Tacoma, Washington
sounds like a lot more work for a marginal improvement. what material(s) are you going to use for baffel walls? I used "noseum" and thought it was a great substitue. .... on my own, i used sexless velcro for the long sides(tapered down from waist to fb. and a draw cord for the foot box & neck closeures. I added a neck collar/tube- and really pleased that i did! can't remember what the size of my tubes were - but I designed it for around 30 degrees.. but the lowest I've used it is around 35degrees ( and can't measure, untill I return to washington...in the spring) I did buy a down filled hat (blackrock) and usually wear it too- seems the perfect accessory..good luck on your project!


Edited by the-gr8t-waldo (01/08/21 02:16 PM)

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#205164 - 01/08/21 01:34 PM Re: Question about down in a quilt [Re: the-gr8t-waldo]
PaHiker Offline
member

Registered: 02/12/15
Posts: 144
Loc: Western Pa, USA
Yeah, that's what I thought. My plan is just for horizontal baffles, with the noseeum netting as well.

My current one is tappered at the bottom, still undecided if I'm going to go that way again or not. I do like the snap closures, easy to add, plastic ones are lightweight.
_________________________
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intent of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, worn out, and loudly proclaiming Wow! What a Ride!

Top
#205166 - 01/09/21 03:30 AM Re: Question about down in a quilt [Re: PaHiker]
Bill Kennedy Offline
member

Registered: 02/27/18
Posts: 284
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Some years back, I made a down mummy bag, and if I do say so myself, it turned out pretty well. I discovered that baffle design is tricky.

I think 1.5" baffles are too tall for a 50-degree quilt. I say that because I have a Western Mountaineering Ultralight, which is rated at 20 degrees, has 5" of overall loft, and has 1.5" baffles (as near as I can measure them.)

When stuffed with enough down to prevent shifting, the down chambers will bulge outward. The tricky part is estimating how much.

On the bag I made (before I learned about this), I wanted 5" of overall loft (2.5" on top). So, I calculated the volume of the down chambers based on a slight bulge, measured the fill power of the down I had, and used 2" baffles. As it turned out, I needed quite a bit more that the calculated amount of down, because the bulge was greater than I thought. The result was a warmer bag, but with about 4 ounces more down that I had figured on. The final result was: total weight, 35oz. with slightly more than 5" of overall loft.

For a 50-degree quilt, though, I would think you could make it sewn-through rather than baffled. Take a look at the Everlite bag from WM, for example:

http://www.westernmountaineering.com/sleeping-bags/extremelite-series/everlite/

An easier and cheaper option would be a synthetic quilt. There wouldn't be much of a weight or bulk penalty in a warm-weather bag like that. Maybe one of Ray Jardine's quilt kits for $130 or so.
_________________________
Always remember that you are absolutely unique, just like everybody else. -Margaret Mead

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#205167 - 01/09/21 09:47 AM Re: Question about down in a quilt [Re: Bill Kennedy]
PaHiker Offline
member

Registered: 02/12/15
Posts: 144
Loc: Western Pa, USA
I got my numbers from this guy's website, couple other sites have referenced it:

https://dubberdesigns.com/downloads/down-quilt-pattern-generator/
_________________________
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intent of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, worn out, and loudly proclaiming Wow! What a Ride!

Top
#205169 - 01/09/21 02:47 PM Re: Question about down in a quilt [Re: PaHiker]
Bill Kennedy Offline
member

Registered: 02/27/18
Posts: 284
Loc: Portland, Oregon
It might be useful to take some spare material and make a mock-up of one down chamber and stuff it with down to get a feel for the relationship between baffle height, baffle spacing, and loft.

I've never used the karo step style of baffle. It doesn't seem any easier to me than horizontal box baffles, which is the most common method.

A common formula to determine the required loft for a given temperature is:

Temp Rating = 70-(20 x loft in inches)

So 1.5" of loft gives you a rating of 40 degrees(70-(20x1.5")).
But if you have 1.5" baffles, the loft will be greater, since the chamber will bulge outward (assuming you use enough down.)

There are lots of variables, though, so it's just a rough guide, and intended for sleeping bags...quilts may not be as warm for a given loft.
_________________________
Always remember that you are absolutely unique, just like everybody else. -Margaret Mead

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#205170 - 01/09/21 03:19 PM Re: Question about down in a quilt [Re: Bill Kennedy]
PaHiker Offline
member

Registered: 02/12/15
Posts: 144
Loc: Western Pa, USA
I did some more checking on other sites that use his method, they mention (what he didn't) is that the baffle material is 1.5", that includes the 1/4" per side used as the seam allowance, so the actual thickness for the 50F quilt is 1". Stuffed with 9oz of 850 fill.

For 1" baffle he does suggest sewing through and 6oz of 850 fill. Going with your formula this would be:

TR = 70 - (20 * 1.5) = 70 - 30 = 40F
TR = 70 - (20 *1) = 50F

So, seems like what I want is 1" sewn through with 6oz of 850.

His baffle spacing is 13" at top and bottom, 11-1/2" in between (to make the calcs easier), giving 6 chambers. The bottom 24-1/2" is tappered about 8-1/2" narrower on each side.

This sounds pretty doable for a sewing neophyte. I person I was talking with in Arizona said he made two of these and uses both when the temps drop below 45F instead of making quilts with different thicknesses. In his dry climate I can see that working, with the humidity in the NE I wasn't sure if there would be a condensation issue.

Anyone have suggestions about stuffing without a mess?
_________________________
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intent of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, worn out, and loudly proclaiming Wow! What a Ride!

Top
#205172 - 01/09/21 04:25 PM Re: Question about down in a quilt [Re: PaHiker]
the-gr8t-waldo Online   content
member

Registered: 01/16/11
Posts: 177
Loc: Tacoma, Washington
I used a shop vac to suck up the down into a contraption that I cobbeled together from pvc singtrainer/drain parts. the loose down in a box and sitting on a electronic kitchen scale...when i had sucked up the desired weight of down.the hose was reconnected to the "blow" side of the vacume. ...and blew the measured down into the channel. sorry but the ccontraption's construction currently escapes me. I'll spend some time tonight to see if i can get more info on it's construction..later tonight. once inside,and sewn shut, I then massaged the channel untill I was happy with the distribution of the down within.....I think the contraptions construction I got from the hammock forums site or a link on there


Edited by the-gr8t-waldo (01/09/21 04:30 PM)

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#205174 - 01/09/21 05:02 PM Re: Question about down in a quilt [Re: the-gr8t-waldo]
the-gr8t-waldo Online   content
member

Registered: 01/16/11
Posts: 177
Loc: Tacoma, Washington
Update..I tryed to find the method I used, but stumbled onto an "instructables outside" instructions for something very close to what I did.....Instructables outside,light weight camping quilt....#5 "finishing the quilt" in essence this is what I did hope this helps p.s. you'd be well served. blowing in the down, outside..even if you didn't answer to a significant other



Edited by the-gr8t-waldo (01/09/21 05:05 PM)

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#205175 - 01/09/21 05:07 PM Re: Question about down in a quilt [Re: the-gr8t-waldo]
PaHiker Offline
member

Registered: 02/12/15
Posts: 144
Loc: Western Pa, USA
Maybe I'm looking at the wrong one (have a link?) but the instructions aren't much, or easily comprehended.

Find a place your house where there is no breeze but plenty of light. Keep the vacuum cleaner close by. Using a food scale, place a container or bag of down on the scale and measure by subtraction. Once the bag is completely stuffed and you are satisfied with the looks of the quilt, pin and sew up the remaining side.
_________________________
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intent of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, worn out, and loudly proclaiming Wow! What a Ride!

Top
#205177 - 01/09/21 06:51 PM Re: Question about down in a quilt [Re: PaHiker]
the-gr8t-waldo Online   content
member

Registered: 01/16/11
Posts: 177
Loc: Tacoma, Washington
sorry, Pa...I found a utube video of the process..." filling a quilt with Down"...by Hofman out door supply 3/1/2017 in the viedo you'll see the method that I used. basicly the donor down is sucked up and injected into the channel. the weight of the donor down is measured with a kitchen scale as the vacume is blowing it into the channel mentioned ( the opperator has to be careful, not to "jostle" the container sitting on top of the scale (gently encourage the down to travel towards the opening ofthe suction opening). sorry but posting a link is outside of my skill set.


Edited by the-gr8t-waldo (01/09/21 06:56 PM)

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#205178 - 01/09/21 07:03 PM Re: Question about down in a quilt [Re: PaHiker]
Bill Kennedy Offline
member

Registered: 02/27/18
Posts: 284
Loc: Portland, Oregon
I handled the down this way: I used a cardboard box, maybe 16"x19"x16"deep and taped a piece of plastic over the open top, leaving just enough room to insert my hands. I put the down in the box, and sorted through the down, removing any pinfeathers and/or debris.

Then, within the box, I filled a small plastic bag (I think I used a small bread sack) with down, closed the bag with the little plastic fastener, weighed it on a postal scale, then adjusted the amount of down as needed.

I inserted about half of the open end of the sack in the down chamber, then turned the sack inside out to release the down. A yardstick or dowel is useful in turning it inside out. Then, gently shook the bag to distribute the down, and added a bit more if needed. Then pinned it shut, and went on to the next one.

The seam spacing seems kind of large to me, unless maybe you're using the karo step type. If using the more common horizontal method, it should be more like 6". The larger the spacing, the more it will bulge out, and the more down it will require to ensure that there's enough down to minimize shifting.

Incidentally, for clarity of communication, a sewn-through bag doesn't have "baffles." The baffle is the mesh strip sewn between the inner and outer.

Later: It just occurred to me that what you want is 1" of average loft, and since the sewn-through seams have zero loft, you'll need the thickness in the middle of the chamber to be something more than 1". I'm guessing about 2", depending on the spacing of the seams.


Edited by Bill Kennedy (01/09/21 07:22 PM)
_________________________
Always remember that you are absolutely unique, just like everybody else. -Margaret Mead

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