Several threads recently focused my thinking on what seems to me to be a fairly important point. Does one hike to camp or camp to hike? We've discussed this several times before, but in slightly different contexts. And I'd somehow never really applied it to myself. Suddenly, it answers questions.

With a few exceptions when I carried my working gear ("mission hardware") on the trail, I've always travelled pretty light. First because I couldn't afford gear, then because I just never felt like I needed much.

I've often bitten my typing fingers when reading "newbie" posts, thinking, "quit worrying about gear. Take a light fleece blanket, a small pot, some water bottles, maybe a mil surplus poncho, maybe a nylon windbreaker, and go." For most of the US (and even my area of Canada), that will get you through several overnighters in the kind of weather newbies are likely to hike in, and after a few, you will have a pretty good idea of what you want.

But I've realized that this impatience actually reflects what I like to do, and seen that way a number of things make sense. I camp because it allows me to keep hiking which is what I really like to do. I generally go alone. Often I don't really camp at all, just bivouac. If I'm going to take a zero day, I usually make a town stop. I only remember staying a day in camp once in my hiking career, and that was very severe weather (tornados, as it turned out).

It's been said before, but I think this issue deserves more than we've given it. Especially in the context of "newbies".

best, jcp

Of course it is both. You can camp in your back yard, if you want. But for me the joy is hiking to beautiful places that you could not otherwise see...and then enjoying that beauty over more than just a few hours. Watching the sun set is one of our all time great treats!

It depends on the newbie. Many, many, many people tell me they tried backpacking, got cold, got sore, and never went again. It's just not worth it. They seem to think it's more about the camping than the hiking.

Hikers who transition into backpacking have a different perspective, I think. I know backpackers who accept suffering and cold with the stolid conviction that it's what you do to hike for day after day. I'll never be one of them myself, but, whatever. I take just enough to sleep well, eat well, and be warm regardless. Gear should be about safety, but if it isn't also facilitating and supplementing your enjoyment of the trip, what are you doing it for, really?

I'll never, ever, ever tell anyone to go into the Sierra in any season with just a fleece blanket! That sounds like a recipe for an earful when the person gets back.

reading "newbie" posts, thinking, "quit worrying about gear

Most newbies don't really know what to expect and I think that focussing on the gear they take is a way to control some of the apprehension they feel about walking into the wild.

I grew up camping, but maybe even more importantly, when my family camped, we also hiked, so from my childhood up I associated the two activities and was familiar with both. Backpacking was not a leap into the unknown for me. That's why my first backpack was done with some pretty random and heavy gear, and why getting cold and wet on that first trip didn't faze me much. Instead, I was thrilled and wanted more.

However, as soon as I knew about good gear, especially warm down-filled sleeping bags (!!), I was determined to have some decent gear, because I knew the alternative. It took me years to scrape together the money for it, but I never stopped going out hiking just for lack of the "right" equipment.

For me, it's both. So many people, like Andrew Skurka, try to classify us into two groups, the hikers and the campers, assuming that the former will do nothing but hike from dawn to dark and that the second carry heavy packs and prefer to base camp. I think he has it all wrong! I enjoy the hiking but I also enjoy the camping! I am not a base camper, and if I do lay over a day I generally get itchy feet by the end of the second day. On the other hand, I prefer to stop mid-afternoon (~4 pm) and spend the rest of the day exploring the area around my camp, fishing or just relaxing and enjoying the view. Even if I'm hiking longer, I may stop an hour or two at a particularly scenic spot during the day just to take it all in.

I personally think that those whose main goal is simply to hike from Point A to Point B, accumulating lots of miles, miss a lot along the way!

I also do all my camping, even car-camping, with my lightweight gear.

OM, this is my second mea culpa to you today. Not good. I did not know that Skurka had already made that categorization. I also did not mean to suggest that I'm only interested in dawn-to-dusk forced marches. I suspect there have been quite a few days when I did more looking than actual walking, but for me that counts as hiking as well. And I suspect if I fished, that would count as well. No disagreement there. I've never been one of the "big miles" hikers, and would not be able today, But I certainly enjoy being out there, and feel at home there (I feel much safer there than most of the places I spend time.

The points made about reasonable comfort (so one will want to go again) and safety are well taken. I'll readily admit I wasn't thinking about the mountains. I was thinking mostly about the east and midwest in summer, late spring and early fall when most "newbies" are likely to hike, and that most of us check a weather forecast before going.

But I also realize that this preference of mine influences how I cook, how I shelter (or don't), how I pack and equip, how I sleep, and even, to some degree, how I walk.

And no, I'm not sending a "newbie" to the White Mountains with a blanket (unless they have reservations at a hut...actually, not even then. Having to stop short is always a possibility).

Now I have to find out what Skurka has said. He's always made me a bit anxious; way bigger miles than I'm interested in.

best, jcp

Good post. I have to agree with you too.

It doesn't take much to get started. I still resupply at my car sometimes, and I always figured I could bail and get back to it when I first started rambling.

But I don't have to be hiking to enjoy myself, and I will spend a few days at a really special spot. More than a few times I've kicked myself for passing them by, and I've often made plans to go back to spots I've run across and spend a day or two.

I like to ramble without any plan. To wander off trail and just follow my nose. It's a lot different than hiking a trail to a destination or a planned number of miles. I want to scratch those itches to go explore a hollow or bluff or mountain top. I will take a trail to find one of those though, and then head off of it.

I agree with Lori, in that I like having the gear that will keep me warm and safe, and I bring it, but I didn't start with much more than a cheap sleeping bag and a used rucksack. I never really gave a lot of thought to expensive gear because I couldn't afford it, so I just scrounged up the essentials and went.

For me, better gear has made it easier to get out, to stay out longer, go further, and to be comfortable in colder temps, but the goal has always been to find or get to someplace special. That's what I love about the Ozarks. There are a billion little nooks and crannies here that are filled with super scenic spots. Hiking five miles here makes me feel like I've seen a months worth of Texas

But JPete, I have to tell you, I believe the way you describe your thinking on this reveals your Ozark roots. I have had people walk into my camp here that have not much more than the clothes on their back, and maybe a gun to shoot a squirrel or rabbit, who've been out bushwhacking around for a week or more. They don't consider themselves "Survivalist", I've asked them what they're doing and they all say the same thing, they just got antsy and had to get out. They stop and chat, always have great stories to tell, probably share a smoke or a drink with you, probably won't eat any of your food, and always just go wandering back off into the forests when they've decided it's time to move on, and they always tell me they grew up around here.

I can see how growing up here you would learn do that. Kids still do, and parents still have no idea of how far they go, or want one. They know what they're doing. They're doing just what you've described.

Not to be classist or stereotype anyone... But i think there is a general trend at play. The farther removed from nature you are raised, the more likely you are to go to REI and purchase a list of heavy "security blanket" gear. Perception is huge. I was a country kid - my comfort level and actual safety margin varies from those who join the hiking group who have never seen wild pine trees.

I was raised in the wild, spent more days and nights outside than in. At 13 we moved from Colorado to the California coast (lots of people) but know one I knew ever ventured off the sidewalks. I found this odd. We all got cheap fishing poles and started fishing the beach, they loved it. Next I talked a few suckers to buy some real cheap thrift store gear, army supply sleeping bags, real crap. We started exploring the hills above Ojia. Next thing you know we are doing 50 mile through hikes. Before we could even drive. It started quite a fad and most of us still meet up and hike. We suffered, got wet, cold, dehydrated, poison oak, scorpion stings, it was AWESOME! Wouldn't trade it for anything.

I hike to hike, sometimes many miles, sometimes only a few. I love to go where my heart leads me. This means sometimes I find a spot that's so lovely I have to stay an extra day. Sometimes I hike too many miles and hurt something horrible. But I love it, all of it. My everyday thoughts are of the mountians and deserts that surround me.

Humans are made to walk. It's simply good for you. No matter what people say or try to label. Light gear helps make things a bit easier. But it doesn't take it to get out and enjoy life on the trail.

Couldn't have said it better myself, Mouse. I also use my lightweight gear for car camping. Whether I'm hiking mostly or camping mostly depends; some trips it's one, some the other. They're all fun, and a chance to escape a fairly regimented daily life.

On gear, I've gone a bit the opposite: I started out carrying more gear than I carry now. Most recently, the chair kit got banished; it was just too much to fuss with, and there's always a rock, tree, or log to lean against. An inflatable sit-pad (doubles as a pillow) replaced it.

Lori, I'm sure that to a great degree that's true, and it makes perfect sense.

I've spent a lot of time in both big cities and the edges of deep rural areas, so I'm comfortable in both, but I found that if your life's experience is all one or the other you do have some fixed ideas of how the other lives that you consider odd. A lot of that is spot on too, and some of it is hilarious.

I keep asking women what they are afraid of the most, thinking about going backpacking. (The men I ask what they are most concerned about - mentioning fear just makes them defensive.) Animals top the list, sleeping on the ground or getting cold comes in second, getting lost is a more remote third. Bugs I lump in with animals. These are the things that drive the initial purchases of the bomber tent, the heavy mattress, etc. - and the fact that they are cheap helps a lot too. Of course, the $15 blue poly tarp would keep the rain off and be even cheaper.... But it's not bug proof and has no walls, so isn't going to keep bears from looking at you.

I like to take mixed drinks or wine, bake bread, and fry eggs when folks who've never hiked go backpacking with me. It also is a tad mindblowing if I pull out a head of broccoli to munch on. The general perception is that you get everything at the sporting goods store, including freeze dried meals, because That's What Backpacking Is About(tm). The marketing doofs have done a great job. Last weekend I handed a new backpacker a sheet of painter's drop cloth to use as a footprint for the floorless tent I loaned. At the end of the trip, she was trying to clean it off to give back - she looked at me like I was silly for telling her to just toss it. I had to explain it was just cheap plastic... not worth all the work of scraping the mud off it, a couple bucks will get me several new tent floors.

I camp to hike. I like mountain biking, rafting, fishing, hiking, but I'm not staying in a hotel to do those things when it's much cheaper and convenience to camp. This website taught me so much on how be comfortable camping in the backcountry as well as safety. The only real discomfort I have is my sleep pad. I woke up Monday morning while backpacking and my shoulders were sore.... I really need get on my under quilt & top quilt project for my hammock.

What Lori said about people's fear and comfort level, I can see that on a lot of levels. I've noticed it in people around here. The only real fear I have camping in backcountry is bears. I don't know why... I take every precaution and when wind blows on my tarp I'm thinking, BEAR!

Every time I go backpacking I have learned a lot about making best of my gears and what I can do without in different seasons. I keep note on that and can't wait to take beginners backpacking to debunk negative perceptions on the sport. On the other hand, do some of you want more people in backcountry?

Edit: To slightly elaborate on Lori's theory about how people grew up. My grandparents has a pop up camper and they would take me camping when I turned 3. My dad would take me on fishing trips in which we camped by the lake. I just evolved into camping in the backcountry as well.

I'll agree with Lori's premise if we use the concept in a figurative sense. There are plenty of people who grew up living in cities, but who spent considerable time in the mountains on vacation. And there are lots of people who grew up in small town who NEVER camp out.

So I think it has more to do with experience than geographic location. Then again, REI stores are often in large metro areas....and when you can't get away for the weekend, at least you can get to REI and buy something that keeps your dream alive.

These days we have a hard time finding anything we want to buy--except the free time to use the stuff we have.

And REI doesn't sell that.

billstephenson and Lori,

Wow, still more insight.

I had never connected my Ozark background and country raising with my hiking style, but now that I think about it, it's absolutely true, and it makes sense. Yes, Bill, we all did wander, often much further afield than our parents knew. Yes, Lori, just from farm work, we were all somewhat used to sometimes being cold, uncomfortable and sore, and thought very little about it. I had been doing as Bill describes, just me, my dog and the over-under, single-shot, 22-410 we all carried (even to school) for a couple of years before I started carrying a blanket so I could stay out longer. Food was a couple of home butchered and cured ham sandwiches my mom wrapped in oilcloth and I carried in my pocket. Oh, and by the way Bill, culturally, one simply did not take food from others (except at church socials).

I tend to follow trails or old roads. There had been a number of wagon roads through North Arkansas (then long abandoned), one of which went to Ft. Smith and connected with a branch of the Santa Fe Trail. Some showed on the USGS quads I discovered early on, some we heard about or just stumbled onto, and to this day, I love following such tracks, just to see where they go and try to figure out why they were there.

Started this thread in a small fit of impatience. Never anticipated self-revelation. Thanks folks.

best, jcp

What has always appealed to me about backpacking and allied outdoor pursuits is that it is essentially an exercise in elegance. Take what you need to maintain a comfortable existence (as you define it) and nothing more. You soon learn about the penalty of excess weight and superfluous stuff.

Background is certainly important. I grew up semi-rural and our earliest vacations were fishing trips to northern Minnesota, which is nice wild country, albeit flat. When I stepped off the train in Tucson, about to become a sophomore at the University of Arizona, I gazed at the Santa Catalina mountains and it was love at first sight.

We should also say something about non-recreational backpacking. Sometimes you cherish, and need, SUL stuff and strategies because of all the "mission critical" gear and samples you will be packing, and the assorted games you will be playing.

It isn't just Skurka who tries to set up an uncrossable dividing line between "hikers" and "campers." Mike Clelland in his books and articles doess the same thing. In fact, that seems to be the general attitude over at Backpackinglight--one of the reasons I prefer this forum!

I find it interesting that this sounds all so gentile.
It sounds like we're all good little boy and girl scouts.

Many of the people here are barbarians and they like it that way. Barbarians deserve equal time as long as they are polite and respectful...

Many people here hike to fish, hunt, trap, photograph things, rob people, steal valuable plants and vandalize cars. Some hike to rock climb or to kayak off mountain waterfalls.

Here in Oregon nobody camps. People from elsewhere come here to camp and they bring all kinds of fancy gear. When we drove for hours to camp in the Sierras we took all the fancy gear along, now I drive my dog out for a walk on a mountain wearing sweats, a hoody and a parka. We have a foot of snow in the yard. should I go pitch my tent out in the snow and sleep in it? Can I come in to use the bathroom?
Jim

" should I go pitch my tent out in the snow and sleep in it? Can I come in to use the bathroom?"

Depends on who you ask. Mrs. Jimshaw might have a much more definite (and less lenient) answer than the rest of us.

You are right, though - everyone has a reason to hike and to camp; yours might not be the same as mine, but it's just as valid.

I guess it's human nature for use to slot other people into categories. I'm certainly guilty of this, to include the "hiker vs. camper" alternates, and of course it's not just all of one or the other but a grey scale. For someone who tends to be a lot more of one than the other, and whose friends and acquaintances are all the same, I guess it can be pretty easy to lump "everyone else" into one mental bucket.

Ideally we all just shift and adjust styles to suit the particular trip and what works best for those accompanying us.

I hope that the real point in drawing a sharp distinction between "hikers" and "campers" is illustrative, to help people think through the dynamics and make a conscious decision.

Interesting topic,,,
First Andrew is not as black and white as some think.
This is one of his comments on another forum about the subject :

"To use an analogy from other outdoor sports, "backpacking" is as broad as "skiing" or "biking." But within those other sports, there are different sub-types: alpine/downhill skiing, cross-country skiing, road biking, mountain biking, freestyle, etc. Skiers and bikes are aware of their inner differences and know the gear and skills they need for a particular sub-type. "

At White Blaze there was a discussion about the term "backpacking" a couple or so years ago.
The premise was about covering 30-50 miles a day with a 5lbs pack or thereabout.
I pointed out that they were talking about "trail running" a totally different style from the typical AT hiking.
That is : different goals, different gear, different food,,, but many disagreed because it was all the same to them.
My point was to highlight that if you do those miles what you recommend will not apply to the average walker.
Example : you have a 40f rated quilt.
So you get cold not longer after midnight.
Solution : get up and start walking...
Brilliant...

In the past I have had some "battles" here with a couple of individuals precisely because they could not see that what they recommended applied only to their location and style of "backpacking" .
(for example the famous tent with wood stove inside. Yes so very practical if you do 20 plus miles a day...)

Often that simply happens because some have never been outside their area or never been exposed to other types of gear .
For example as a teen I never carried water, that was because there was water every 10-30 min in any direction where I used to walk.
However here in Australia I have had to carry 3 days worth so I can see this from both points of view.

One point that is becoming more common is the one Lori mentioned :

"The farther removed from nature you are raised, the more likely you are to go to REI and purchase a list of heavy "security blanket" gear.'
More people grow up in Cities so apart from taking the "security blanket" with them they also lack very basic skills such as when to start, pace, how much and when to drink/eat and when and how to rest.
A simple point is clothing.
Note how often people take layers off when they stop (because they are sweat soaked...) when at that point I would be putting layers on...
Most of this is usually filed under "common sense" but common sense is just acquired knowledge so not that common.

Both of the last two post are very insitefull, thanks to all who have replied. I too fall victim to labeling but strive not to. Pre judging only limits one. My view is EVERY one has something to share. Only the ignorant choose to not learn. Ignoring something you disagree with proves nothing.

Interesting - I didn't mean people who grew up in cities vs. people who grew up in the country. I meant people who grew up in families who weren't outdoorsy. People in small towns can be just as ignorant of the outdoors, if they don't go out there at all. I was commenting about lifestyle, not location.

Yeah, when you start looking for common ground in the normal places you find countless exceptions.

If you take away everything with a variable the one common denominator left is probably the willingness to spend the night out away from most of the security blankets. Crossing the threshold of that fear is what it takes to camp or backpack. That doesn't mean you're not afraid, it means you will do it.