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#153959 - 08/24/11 08:56 AM Can't get my pack weight down
Gershon Offline
member

Registered: 07/08/11
Posts: 1109
Loc: Colorado
I find I need about 4,000 calories of food a day to prevent fatigue later in the day. If I eat less than this, by the third day, I'm ready to leave the trail and win a food challenge. (I'm 6'0", 194 pounds, and a healthy 58 year old male.)

The problem is, it's hard to get too many things that have more than 125 calories per ounce and most things are 100 calories. At 125 calories, that's 32 ounces a day of food a day or two pounds. To go out for 5 days, I'd need 10 pounds of food. Just eating 4,000 calories a day of camp food can be a challenge. Space for it is also a challenge.

This is becoming an annoying issue as the more I hike, the more food I need even on the first day. I tend to lose 2 pounds a day on the trail now, no matter how much I eat. I can stand to lose some weight, but this rate of loss isn't good for endurance. None of this is water weight as I stay well hydrated.

Maybe I'm not balancing the nutrients properly, but I eat the usual assortment of what everyone else eats. I'm a vegetarian, so that makes things more difficult.

It also creates a pack weight problem. I generally carry a gallon of water with me which is more than most, but I wouldn't want to have to dry camp with less should I need to do that. I do carry less where I KNOW there is water, but that's worst case.

(all weights are estimates.)

5 day pack:

Pack: 3 pounds
Sleeping bag: 2 1/2 pounds
Tent (for 2): 6 pounds
Water: 8 pounds
Food and bags: 11 pounds
Stove and pot: 1 Pound
White gas: 1.5 pounds (including bottle)
Fleece: 1 pound .
Rain jacket/outer layer 1.5 pound
Extra shirt, pants
and socks: 1 pound
Toilet paper (1 roll for
2 people.) 1 pound
2 6 inch squares .1 pounds
of camp towels
Parachute cord .2 pounds
SPOT transmitter .5 pounds
Water filter .5 pounds
Tiny flashlight negligable

This isn't so bad at 37.3 pounds, but my hiking partner only weighs 97 pounds, so I have to take on some extra to balance the effort. I generally end up around 43 pounds. He ends up at about 30 pounds. Yet I can't see how I can cut down. I use everything in my pack everyday.

As you can see, I'm an ultralight failure.



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#153961 - 08/24/11 10:33 AM Re: Can't get my pack weight down [Re: Gershon]
DTape Offline
member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 666
Loc: Upstate NY
First suggestion: Don't estimate. Get a cheap postal scale and weigh everything. I use a tenth of an ounce precision.

Since you have a hiking partner, a lot of that gear seems shared (filter, stove, tent...) so you really need to figure out exactly what is in each pack with the exact weights.

I am not sure about the climate of where/when you will be hiking. This is important when looking at shelter, sleeping gear, and extra clothing. It may be possible to shed some significant weight here.

A gallon of water does seem quite excessive, but just like my previous comment, the geography might require it.

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#153963 - 08/24/11 11:31 AM Re: Can't get my pack weight down [Re: Gershon]
BZH Offline
member

Registered: 01/26/11
Posts: 1062
Loc: Madison, AL
6 pounds for a two person tent seems heavy. Maybe you have a 3-person tent for the two of you, but this certainly seems like one place you could cut some weight. A pound of toilet paper seems a bit excessive, but maybe that is just an estimate. Do you usually bring back a half roll or more? 2.5 lbs for stove, pot, and gas seems a little high. There are lighter options than white gas.

Those are just my thoughts... but in full disclosure, I am a failure at ultralight too frown

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#153966 - 08/24/11 12:15 PM Re: Can't get my pack weight down [Re: Gershon]
ringtail Offline
member

Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 2296
Loc: Colorado Rockies
I do not see a sleeping pad on your list.

Water management: I have carried up to 9 quarts of water into the Grand Canyon along with 6 days of food. Yes, the pack was 45 pounds at the trailhead. With the water you are carrying you will continue to need the "beast hauler" pack. I have a "beast hauler", but most of the time my pack is less than 2 pounds.

For dry camps I will stop for an early diner, then carry about a quart and a half of water to the dry camp. A pint of water to hike to camp, a pint to drink over night and a pint to drink with Tang in the morning. A pint of Tang and a bar is more than enough to get you to a water source for breakfast. It makes it easier to keep a clean camp when you sleep at a different place than where you eat. Dry camps have less bugs.

A six pound tent is heavy, but for two is three pounds per person. An REI half dome might save some weight.

Consider converting to compressed gas canister stove.

The water on the Colorado Trail is mostly clear. Consider converting to AquaMira treatment.

Actually you are light weight. Take the 37 pound pack ans subtract your water and food and you have a base weight of 18 pounds.

Water management is your biggest barrier. For the most part there is much more water on the Colorado Trail than what is listed in the Databook. It is rare when the Databook lists a water source that is not there. Maybe mile 26.1 of Segment 6 is one of the exceptions.
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#153969 - 08/24/11 12:50 PM Re: Can't get my pack weight down [Re: ringtail]
Gershon Offline
member

Registered: 07/08/11
Posts: 1109
Loc: Colorado
Thanks for the input. It's probably simplest to agree I carry too much water. I'll probably continue to do that for awhile until I learn what we actually use. Generally we arrive at a water source with about pint and a half apiece. We don't always start with a full gallon. That's just the max.

The tent is 3 person. 2 person is just too cozy for relatives. It's a T-3 REI quarter dome.

I made a spreadsheet of food and calories,etc. It's much more than what I'm eating. Sure enough, I looked in my son's pack and there is a bunch left over. Next time, I pack my own munchies so I'm sure to eat it all.

I don't carry a sleeping pad. I sleep real warm and comfortable. Once I spent a summer sleeping outside on the ground cowboy style with just a bag and I got used to it.

My current bag is way to warm for my needs. I'm going to try just an army blanket sewn halfway up the side and the bottom open so my feet stick out. Usually, I unzip and sleep mostly outside anyway. (I'll try this one car camping.) If it works, there is probably a lighter alternative.

Ringtail, I live in Pueblo. Do you live anyplace close? It would be a lot more effective for me to just see an experienced hiker's pack and to have one look at mine. I think I may be stuck in a mindset of doing what I've always done while making small changes instead of some big ones.


Edited by Gershon (08/24/11 12:54 PM)
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#153970 - 08/24/11 01:16 PM Re: Can't get my pack weight down [Re: Gershon]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
Originally Posted By Gershon

(all weights are estimates.)

5 day pack:

Pack: 3 pounds
Sleeping bag: 2 1/2 pounds
Tent (for 2): 6 pounds
Water: 8 pounds
Food and bags: 11 pounds
Stove and pot: 1 Pound
White gas: 1.5 pounds (including bottle)
Fleece: 1 pound .
Rain jacket/outer layer 1.5 pound




First, take it all to the post office and weigh everything more precisely. Understand what you have to lose. smile

Second, I refer you to a nutritionist: http://thru-hiker.com/articles/pack_light_eat_right.php

Note that things like olive oil, butter, and those full fat items are probably going to need to go into the food bag. Fat makes you feel fuller, burns well to provide the warmth that needs to come from you at night, and goes to repair the wear and tear on your body while hiking.

Third, I see a lot of places you can cut. Get rid of white gas stove and get a 3 oz canister stove, or go even lighter with an alcohol stove. Get a better sleeping bag - a high quality down bag rated to 15-20F or a quilt rated to same. My 20F down quilt weighs 20 oz. I won't go without it. Get a lighter tent - the MSR Carbon Reflex 3 (yes, 3 person tent, very roomy) weighs half what yours does. A Six Moon Designs, Tarptent, Zpack, or other cottage gear industry shelter can cut it even a few more ounces beyond that. Exchange the fleece jacket for a down sweater, cut a few more ounces. Take a wad of toilet paper per person instead of a whole roll. Get a set of Driducks for rain gear if you are not walking through brush. Don't take the extra shirt and pants - get a layering system going that does the job, without redundancy. Dump the parachute cord and get Zing It - no stretch, good strong and very light cord that makes for much better bear bagging - doesn't damage trees as much as nylon cord. Take a bandanna and leave the camp towels at home.

Of course, you'll probably have some sticker shock on some of the items I suggest. If lighter is the issue and budget is a bigger issue, you'll be going toward tarps instead, or shopping used gear posts in forums like Backpacking Light or this one.

Those are my suggestions... I've implemented most myself. I do cook on alcohol stoves, they do work at low temps, and I do not suffer for the choice - quite the opposite. I always know how much fuel I have left and always get the hot food and beverages I like to have. And frequently I get it faster than the white gas stove users I've hiked with... it seems to be a habit for some folks to consistently overprime those things. I've met very few people who really get their stove to work well for them - they're all fiddly, and they're all dangerous to some degree.
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#153973 - 08/24/11 02:07 PM Re: Can't get my pack weight down [Re: lori]
balzaccom Offline
member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 2040
Loc: Napa, CA
You are getting great advice here. I am sure that a roll of toilet paper doesn't weight a full poind anyway---so the rest of your weights are also probably a bit off. And yes, cut down and cut back. We take a small remainder of a toilet paper roll, not the whole thing. We carry a total of 8 pounds of water between the two of us, and that's if we plan on hiking 4-5 miles without a re-supply point. just those two things alone have cut 5 pounds off your pack weight.

Yes, your tent is heavy. And yes, your stove is heavy and more complicated than it needs to be. But fixing those will cost money.

Cut the first five pounds, and take a trip. Learn from that trip what you need, and what you don't need.

There's whole discussion of this topic on our website as well, under the equipment page...

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balzaccom

check out our website and blog: http://www.backpackthesierra.com/home

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#153976 - 08/24/11 03:09 PM Re: Can't get my pack weight down [Re: balzaccom]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
I'll add to the suggestion to eat more fat. Your a vegetarian, so that would be olive oil and nuts. You will get more calories with less weight that way.

Everyone else had great suggestions, so I won't repeat.
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#153981 - 08/24/11 04:08 PM Re: Can't get my pack weight down [Re: finallyME]
Gershon Offline
member

Registered: 07/08/11
Posts: 1109
Loc: Colorado
Lori,

Thanks for the specific recomendations. That website is just what I was looking for. The nutrition site is great. I did a spreadsheet of my menu today. I found carbs are 69%, protein 15% and fat 9%. Once I get a lot of data in, I'll be able to improve those a bit. Sounds like olive oil and more peanuts are the big winners here.
.
What alcohol stove would you recommend?

There is probably a new sleeping bag in my future, but not today.

Ouch on the price of a down sweater.

One a side note, I've found if I put dehydrated stuff in the water and let it soak for 5 minutes or so, it heats quicker and tastes better. Especially for thick things like oatmeal or potato soup.

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#153983 - 08/24/11 04:23 PM Re: Can't get my pack weight down [Re: Gershon]
ringtail Offline
member

Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 2296
Loc: Colorado Rockies
Originally Posted By Gershon
Thanks for the input. It's probably simplest to agree I carry too much water. I'll probably continue to do that for awhile until I learn what we actually use. Generally we arrive at a water source with about pint and a half apiece. We don't always start with a full gallon. That's just the max.


WARNING: Graphic discussion of body functions. All of us are different but I keep my water consumption between 3 and 6 quarts per day. I get constipated if I drink less than 3 quarts per day - a moist colon is a happy colon. If I drink more than 6 quarts per day the result is that I flush out nutrients and minerals and risk osmotic diarrhea. My colon just does not have the capacity to absorb more than 6 quarts per day and that is hiking in triple digit weather. If I am drinking more than 5 quarts per day I need extra potassium so that my body can absorb the water.

Sun protection is important. Not sunscreen, but long sleeve shirts and full brim hats or even an umbrella.

If I allow my heart rate to go too high for very long then I "burn out", and can only hike a few hours per day. If I hike slow and steady then I can hike a lot of hours a day. Interval training is very good training, but is not a good hiking pace.

It is a good idea to push your aerobic capacity when you train, but not on a multi-day hike.
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"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not."
Yogi Berra

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#153998 - 08/24/11 10:42 PM Re: Can't get my pack weight down [Re: Gershon]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
What sort of cooking do you do?

I have a pretty broad variety of stoves - I have a remote canister, a Snowpeak Giga, and probably ten different alcohol stoves, several of which simmer, two of which will boil and simmer with minor adjustments. There are reasons and seasons for different kinds of stoves. I'm afraid stoves are one of my geek toys... I can't seem to resist trying out the next one. Why so many? I dunno, cause I can? Alcohol stoves are cheap.

You could very cheaply get started with two Fancy Feast cans - make a Supercat and a Simmercat. Carrying both is still far lighter than any manufactured stove. There are plans for do it yourself stoves at zenstoves.net, which also does a comparison of all fuels, all stoves and why you would or would not want to use them.

Pre-made alcohol stoves can be had from Mini Bull Designs, Zelph, Past Primitive and a few other vendors - I have three Mini Bull stoves, a White Box stove, a Featherfire and a Past Primitive. Tinny at Mini Bull has gone geeky making more complicated, strange contraptions, but he still sells his Atomic and Mini Atomic stoves - those are bombproof and work great. The Mini Atomic is one of my most used stoves. I also have one of his Blackfly stoves, which was discontinued a long time ago but a very neat concept - it will simmer or boil based on how you set the wick and has a water bath to keep the fuel from boiling, so it's a fuel conserver. I'm currently reviewing the Past Primitive Deluxe Cook set at Backpackgeartest.org (which is a great resource for reviews on all manner of gear).

If I want to steam bake, I'll pack the Featherfire - it has a knob to adjust from a boil to a low simmer. It needs more care with packing due to the legs. I usually wrap my bandanna around it before nesting it in the pot. I managed almost 45 minutes of burn with less than 2 oz of fuel with that one, boiled water then baked some biscuits with it, and had fuel left over.

The remote canister is a Primus - I'll carry that for group cooking, or when I'm doing a lot of actual cooking, ala car camping.

The Snowpeak Giga is often my loaner stove, and sometimes I forget to pick up another bottle of HEET or denatured alcohol - so some overnights, as I pick up the pack at 4 am and head out the door, I grab the Giga and one of the partial canisters and go.
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"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#153999 - 08/24/11 11:25 PM Re: Can't get my pack weight down [Re: Gershon]
james__12345 Offline
member

Registered: 10/06/10
Posts: 189
Loc: Tennessee
Peanut butter 160 callories per ounce. Also gives you some protein that can be tricky with out meat. I've done some reading on people heating it, then pouring it into a platypus bottle for storage/dispensing to deal with the weight of the container and the potential mess.

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#154000 - 08/25/11 12:22 AM Re: Can't get my pack weight down [Re: lori]
Gershon Offline
member

Registered: 07/08/11
Posts: 1109
Loc: Colorado
Lori,

I've only had one stove for backpacking for the last 34 years. The Svea 123R. It's super easy to use and doesn't break. Mostly, I just use gasoline in it that is too old for the lawnmower.

I'd make a Pepsi can stove, but I just know I'd step on it at the wrong time.

Still, it would be wrong to ask for advice and then not take good advice. So I'll at least try one of the homemade versions of an alcohol stove.

I found this good video on making the Atomizer.

http://www.freewebs.com/atomicstoves/theatomizer10.htm

Oh, on the sort of cooking. Anything from a quick boil to a low simmer. The total cooking time is usually very short. Less than 5 minutes or so.

Here is a video I made which dispels the idea they are hard to light. Usually I carry a smaller bottle of lighter fluid or some fire paste for priming. I prefer the lighter fluid, but fire paste can't spill. It took 4 1/2 minutes to boil 2 cups of water including priming time.

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#154003 - 08/25/11 07:12 AM Re: Can't get my pack weight down [Re: Gershon]
DTape Offline
member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 666
Loc: Upstate NY
In my experience (and opinion) alcohol stoves do not need to be over-engineered to be efficient and/or work in sub zero temps. I also have found the pressurized stoves like the pepsi-can stove design to be quite inefficient,a PITA to make, and don't work well in cold. The two DIY designs I would recommend are:

Supercat Stove (jim woods design) It is simple, strong, semi-pressurized but very efficient. For warmer temps this stove can hardly be beat.

For colder temps, the Fancee Feest stove (zelph design). Also simple and strong. Uses fiberglass wick so that it will light easily in sub-zero temps. Very efficient as well. This is my goto stove.

While these stoves do not simmer all by themselves, it is easy to get them too. A small strip of beer can aluminum slid up to cover the holes (of the supercat) or wick (of the fanceefeest) will allow them both to simmer.

You cannot go wrong with either of these.
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#154004 - 08/25/11 07:23 AM Re: Can't get my pack weight down [Re: Gershon]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
If you are afraid of damaging a stove, the White Box is the one - I can stand on mine.

That said, I'm a total clutz and have yet to damage any stove. Kick one over, yes - but I haven't lost or smashed any of them. And if you smash a Fancy Feast the replacement is easy to come by.

Another one I have and didn't mention - the Caldera Cone 12-10. Awesome burner, boils nearly a liter of water efficiently and the cone doubles as a pot stand, the case doubles as cup and bowl. A bit on the pricey side but you get them to match your pot.
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#154008 - 08/25/11 11:56 AM Re: Can't get my pack weight down [Re: lori]
Gershon Offline
member

Registered: 07/08/11
Posts: 1109
Loc: Colorado
I found a good website for planning food other than the commercial dehydrated meals.

http://caloriecount.about.com

If you create an account, it will analyze the nutrients. I found my backpacking diet was completely lacking in potassium and low in calcium. A cup of dehydrated fruit will fix that.

I also found I could increase the calorie count and nutrient by at least 10% for the same weights just by picking a different brand of food.

All this is probably overkill for an overnight hike. But if the calorie count can be increased by 10%, it means about a 10% reduction in food weight or maybe an increase in energy for the same weight. For a longer hike, this can make a difference.

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#154011 - 08/25/11 02:51 PM Re: Can't get my pack weight down [Re: DTape]
BarryP Offline
member

Registered: 03/04/04
Posts: 1574
Loc: Eastern Idaho
“…pepsi-can stove design to be quite inefficient,a PITA to make, and don't work well in cold.”

Something doesn’t sound right.
I don’t even use a stove that can’t easily be lit and and stays lit at 0F; and I stay away from stoves that require priming; that’s a signal it will have a hard time at cold temps.

They are hard to make but I have found a well-built pepsi stove is very efficient and easily works at 0F. It helps efficiency to keep the alcy in the pocket before use but I’ve tried it with super cold 0F alcy and it still lights; and it melts snow.

This guy gives good directions: http://www.thesodacanstove.com/stove/
The best pepsi dimension for quick boil is an 1” tall stove with the pot stand 1” above that.
Or you can buy one from Mike the Mechanic on eBay. http://www.ebay.com/itm/0-3oz-Camping-Su...=item5644356518

Careful, alcy is addictive smile

-Barry

The mountains were made for Teva’s

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#154016 - 08/25/11 04:07 PM Re: Can't get my pack weight down [Re: BarryP]
DTape Offline
member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 666
Loc: Upstate NY
To clarify, I define efficiency with stoves based on the amount to fuel to achieve the "boil", not time. Both of the stoves I identified use half an ounce of alcohol to boil 2 cups of water (starting temp 70*).

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#154031 - 08/25/11 10:47 PM Re: Can't get my pack weight down [Re: Gershon]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3967
Loc: Bend, Oregon
At 18 pounds estimated base weight, this is light weight. You do need actual weights of the actual things you take, not just the things on the list. Where you camp a bivy should do and I'd use a cannister stove. Your outer layer is too heavy - get el cheapo nonbreathable rain pants and jacket, they are warmer worn over insulation than expensive breathable shells. But you need to put this together and weigh it and read the suggested gear lists. You do not need to be fancy nor expensive to be light, just leave out the heavy stuff.
Jim
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#154033 - 08/26/11 01:26 AM Re: Can't get my pack weight down [Re: Jimshaw]
OregonMouse Offline
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6742
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
I believe we've already referred you to the gear lists on the home page of this site. The articles there have lots of suggestions for saving a half-ounce here and a half-ounce there, which can add up to several pounds. Getting your base weight (18 lbs. isn't bad, though!) down another couple of pounds will give you more leeway on the food and water.

You've gotten a lot of great advice on nutrition, so I won't add much. I've found that nuts are an excellent source of nutrition, containing healthy fats. If you can find a source of soynuts (soybeans cooked and then roasted), those are great, too, as both a protein and fat source.

I've found that, for me, I stay better hydrated on slightly less water (i.e. the water I drink stays inside instead of going in one end and out the other laugh ) by adding a little electrolyte mix to my drinking water. I use the mix at half the recommended strength. Individuals do differ, but it might be worth a try. In alpine areas of the west, there are very few places where you don't run across a water source every couple of hours or sooner. Lower elevations and desert, of course, are a different story. Drought conditions also make a difference. "Tanking up" (drinking your fill) at water sources may (again, individuals differ) let you carry less water between sources. I generally carry only a quart at a time, two quarts at the most, but I don't hike in the desert. Nor (for the sake of my dog) do I hike when it's really hot.


Edited by OregonMouse (08/26/11 02:41 AM)
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#154034 - 08/26/11 02:09 AM Re: Can't get my pack weight down [Re: DTape]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
Originally Posted By DTape
In my experience (and opinion) alcohol stoves do not need to be over-engineered to be efficient and/or work in sub zero temps.


I don't see where anyone said anything about needing to be over-engineered... just providing a description of the many types available.

The 12-10 is a pretty darn efficient stove, no moving parts.

_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#154036 - 08/26/11 06:34 AM Re: Can't get my pack weight down [Re: lori]
DTape Offline
member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 666
Loc: Upstate NY
Originally Posted By lori
Originally Posted By DTape
In my experience (and opinion) alcohol stoves do not need to be over-engineered to be efficient and/or work in sub zero temps.


I don't see where anyone said anything about needing to be over-engineered... just providing a description of the many types available.

The 12-10 is a pretty darn efficient stove, no moving parts.



No one did. I did not mean to imply that at all. Just adding to the comments about alcohol stoves. Often when people begin the journey,or as Barry aptly put it, the addicition, it is common to try to over think a design.
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#154042 - 08/26/11 03:34 PM Re: Can't get my pack weight down [Re: DTape]
BarryP Offline
member

Registered: 03/04/04
Posts: 1574
Loc: Eastern Idaho
“Both of the stoves I identified use half an ounce of alcohol to boil 2 cups of water (starting temp 70*)”

That’s a good definition. Likewise a pepsi stove meets that definition with flying colors.
And it has an added bonus of no priming needed at 0F and works great above 11K feet.
Just an fyi
-Barry

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#154043 - 08/26/11 03:37 PM Re: Can't get my pack weight down [Re: BarryP]
Gershon Offline
member

Registered: 07/08/11
Posts: 1109
Loc: Colorado
I made a simple diet coke can alcohol stove just to play with. I'll have to buy some alcohol and wait until it gets dark.

Without the holes, it would make a great little container to carry a small amount of peanut butter.

A bigger version could hold my Rich Crackers so they don't get broken. (An organic version of Ritz Crackers.)



Edited by Gershon (08/26/11 03:47 PM)
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#154045 - 08/26/11 05:35 PM Re: Can't get my pack weight down [Re: Gershon]
Dryer Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3591
Loc: Texas
I'm a Svea fanatic. I own both the old Svea, the 123R, and the R8 Hunter. Nothing beats 'em for day packing or car camping. Finest stoves ever made, hands down.
That said, lose those for backpacking. Try Esbit instead, or learn to make "cook fires". I used alcohol for a while but Esbit/cook fires won out.

Lose the tent. My poncho/shelter weighs 7 ounces and my heaviest hammock weighs 2.5 lbs. My tent was also 6 lbs....15 years ago.

Lose the toilet paper. Learn to use what nature provides and a drop of soap, a splash of water. You'll be both cleaner and lighter.

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paul, texas KD5IVP

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