I'm just curious what others thin of using tarps over a tent with zipper flaps and floors.

I'd love to use a trap or even slleep under the stars when weather permits . However , I have a issue doing it because of snakes , timber rattlers in particular .

The areas I frequent has an over population of them . I'm OK knowing they are there but give them a wide margin . With them being heat seeking creatures , I can visualize having one slide into my sleeping bag at night .

Does anyone else share this fear or concern ?

Gonzo

I don't share that specific concern, but I might suggest an alternative to the tarp: a full-net tent like the MSR Hubba/Carbon Reflex series, or the Big Agnes Seedhouse/Seedhouse SL series. You can pitch the inner without the fly on a nice night, and the all-mesh walls feel exactly like sleeping under the stars, except no bugs - and no worries about snakes.

Another option would be a mesh bivy sack, though in my opinion, you don't save enough weight with them to justify the space and convenience you give up with the tent.

Where are you hiking that you have a high population of timber rattlers? I hike in southeastern Kentucky, and adjacent areas in Virginia, which are supposed to have "high" populations, but I've only seen more than one on one trip - then I saw 3, all on a large sunny rock shelf the trail passed through. They couldn't get out of our way fast enough when they felt the vibration of our boots. (I'm not trying to downplay your concern or belittle your numbers; I'm just curious if we might be hiking in similar places.)

Often the treament for rattlesnake bites is complicated by the high blood/alcohol level of the person bitten. The other high risk group are people that handle snakes in religious rites.

Your fear is real and I respect that, but the danger is low.

I think you need to carry what it takes for you to sleep well. Glenn is right, if it takes a tent then carry a tent.

I am not going to try to talk you out of your fear, but please search the internet to get information that allows you to evaluate the danger.

Hey Gleen ,

I'm hiking in the Monogahela Nat Forest in and around Elkins, WVa .

Gonzo

Would that be the Dolly Sods Wilderness area? If so, I'm headed toward you in September, to spend a few days circumnavigating it with a buddy.

I often throw back the tarp when in my hammock and watch the falling stars. But it's not on the ground.

You might be better off with a double wall tent with a mesh inner - lots of those, some of them really lightweight. Pitched without a fly they are pretty nice on a hot summer night while still keeping bugs out.

Hi Gone
Welcome to our group.
A lot of people have fears justified or not, that for them, shapes their attitude about reality of "the wilderness". I think you might sleep better in a tent than with just a tarp. Some people go to hammocks because of their attitude about sleeping on the ground. I've found that its a good idea t do what makes you feel comfortable enough to sleep.
Jim

I share your fear. Around here it's mostly copperheads, but rattlers and cottonmouths are common too. No way in heck I would sleep outside of a tent. The way I look at it a bite would , at the very least, ruin my trip. A bad bite would land me in an expensive hospital bed. No thank you, I'll take a tent. I am looking into buying tall boots to prevent a bite on the ankle, since I've read that's where most bites occur.

Regardless of the actual danger, it sounds like the extra weight of a tent over a tarp will buy you a better night's sleep with fewer concerns.

Looks like a good deal to me.

There is a tiny risk that a rattler will cozy up to you in the middle of the night for warmth. The slightly larger risk is selecting a site by their den exit/entrance. But I would bet that it's more likely that you will be hit by a cross town bus.

Do you need to keep closed off shelter to keep snakes at bay? In the US... I don't think so. In other locations in the world... sometimes.

I would suggest the tent -vs- tarp is mostly a personal preference thing. If you are the sort of person that will worry about snakes even though there is little risk... then take a tent and get a good night of rest. If finding data that the snake risk is small calms your heart, consider a tarp.

Of course the are the compromise of tarptents that are almost as light at a tarp but still provide full bug/snake protection.

--Mark

I never used a tent when I camped in the Sequoias. I just laid in a sleeping bag or between blankets. One morning I had a big ugly centipede in my bag, but that's the worst I ever encountered.

But here, in the Ozarks, I have heard of people who partied a bit too hard and passed out in the forests. When they woke up they were tick and chigger bit pretty bad. One guy told me he had to shave his legs to get all the ticks off

So now I use a tent or a hammock. The little Eureka Solitaire might be a good choice for you. It'll keep the bugs and snakes from joining you and without the rainfly it's a lot like sleeping under the stars.

JimShaw posted a link here somewhere to a pretty good deal on one not too long ago.

Lived around those critters all my life, camped under the stars 90% of the time since I was a child, and have NEVER had an issue with a any snake or critter coming up for anything but a 'sniff'. Timber rattlers are protected here and are the least aggressive of our rattlers. Skunks, raccoons, possums, deer, javelinas, black bear, tarantulas, lizards, cats,and yeah, snakes have all wandered through camp over the years but it's more 'funny/fun' than 'threatening'. I like it...it's a reason to go out....to see those things.
Pit vipers might be 'heat seeking' but they are looking for food, not warm, fuzzy places to sleep.

My tent preference is entirely bug and flowing water driven.

One night in skeeter territory under a tarp was pretty convincing. I spent many summers in pretty open canvas wall-tents, and plenty of critters made their way in there, and that didn't bother me, but flying bugs buzzing in my ears and biting my face under that tarp was a deal-breaker for me, so I've been fairly consistently using some sort of mesh barrier ever since.

I've also spent several nights in tents with good bathtub floors when there have been rivers running through my campsite. I'm fairly confident that a groundsheet would not have kept my bag dry in such conditions, thus swaying me fairly permanently from anything without good protection beneath.

I realize that site selection could possibly prevent the latter, but in this half of the country, you're often told by the man where you can and can't camp, and the result is sometimes not being able to avoid a site that could become a river in a good rain.

Never really gave much thought to snakes and such...

Hey Glenn ,

The area I'm refering to is Otter Creek Wilderness Area .

I have only seen 1 Timber Rat on Dolly Sods and it was crossing the road. Be assured that they lurk there though .

Gonzo

Then again gonzo, another gun thread just got started......

Unless you step directly on a timber rattler it is highly unlikley to ever get bit. My Dad was a Biologist at NIU for thirty years. I watched him collect and handle many reptiles, including Rattlesanke , Copperheads ,Bats, Etc. He was never bitten in his life of searching for these critters. Leave them alone they will leave you alone. They are part of a diverce eco system!

The Bilgy Tarp tent looks like a good option check it out!
http://www.questoutfitters.com/

There are a number of options to keep those creepy crawlers out. The obvious choice is by using a bivy, usually they weigh around 7oz or less, and also offer full-weather protection. You could opt for some form of bug canopy such as the Inner Peace, MLD's Bug Bivy or Inner Nets. Gossamer Gear offers a more minimal approach with their Bug Canopy.

Another choice is to purchase a TarpTent or similar product such as ZPack's Hexamid line..

Neat. I'll keep an eye out for him, and tell him you said hi.

I think you're probably vastly overstating the risk, and you could tarp it no problem at all, as some have mentioned.

Having said that, sleeping is about personal COMFORT. If you can rationalize the risk and get a good nights sleep in a tarp for less weight, great. Do that. If your hindbrain simply can't do that and no way no how would you sleep well - it's not worth it, take a mesh enclosed tarptent at least.

I personally can rationalize away the snake fear - I have enough biology background I'd have no problem.

But the interesting part is that I *do* want to go someplace like big bend and do the desert thing someday. and I know they have *spiders* big hairy tarantulas. I KNOW rationally they are harmless - unfortunately my rational brain has nothing to do with my ridiculous arachnophobia - I won't be tarping it there for that reason. I'm out to have fun - not prove that I'm big and macho and don't scream like a little girl around spiders. (I do).

So.. do what is lightweight for you, and keeps you *comfortable*

That's a great post phat!

We all have our fears. I've found experience tempers them. We have big hairy tarantulas here. You hardly ever see them until Autumn, when they start moving around and use the roads to travel on. And they are BIG! Big as the palm of your hand.

I've caught and released two in our house. But I've found tarantulas are about the smartest spider I've encountered. They avoid people, and rare up on their hind legs to warn you away when you're getting too close. And you really have to pester them a lot to make them want to bite you. The only person I've heard of that has got bit here was a drunken old timer that picked one up to show my son they were harmless. That spider sunk it's fangs into his hand and hung on while he was trying to shake it off. The old fart's hand was swollen and sore a few days later but that was the extent of the damage.

My first summer here I developed a serious Tick phobia. I stayed out of the forest in the warm seasons for a couple years because I was afraid of getting swarmed by them.

But after that I got a bit angry with myself for being a whimp about it and finally I couldn't stand not heading out into the forest any longer so I decided I'd just tough it out.

I get tick bit every year now, but it's about like getting mosquito bit, not a big deal. But I wouldn't want to lay a bedroll on top of a new hatch of `em and fall asleep

Great post, one that I can definately relate.

I am orginally from England-- a country were one does not need to worry about such things as ticks, mosquitos, venomous snakes and spiders, scorpians etc and thus I always just used a tarp/bivy combo. When I moved to Denver many years ago, my inexperiance about the location and lack of real knowledge about the wildlife lead me to a state of fear; so much so that not only did I switch to a doubled walled tent and later to a TarpTent, but it took me hours to fall asleep and I worried about every single mosquito bite that I got because of risk of west-nile etc. I really dreaded the one the thing that I loved doing.

It is only in the last few years, when I began to educate myself and change my way of thinking about such matters that I began to enjoy all-year round camping and now I even back to my beloved tarp/bivy set-up.

Oh yeah! Big Bend has tarantulas! In fact, one trip there was some sort of 'tarantula' migration thing going on. Like a lobster migration. Tarantulas were all marching north. A couple decided to march through my off-road car camp site and one was headed right for my foot...while I was sitting in my chair eating supper. I just sat there to see if the critter would change course. Nope...walked right over my toes and kept going. Weird thing is I could barely feel it. They can jump and if really hacked off, can jab you with their long fangs, but I've never heard of anyone getting bit. Big ol' goofy spiders is all they are. Come on down Phat! You'll be cuddling with 'em before its all over.

I used to have a pet tarantula named Fur Face. Of course I also had a pet bark scorpion... Now we learn that the Giant Palouse earthworms are real... Anyway most phobias go away after a while of being tested.
Jim