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#124104 - 11/20/09 09:32 AM Disadvantages of eVent?
Steadman Offline
member

Registered: 09/17/09
Posts: 511
Loc: Virginia
Referencing Tom Trout's thread "All Gore's creations" begun 01/07/08, and the Rain gear and rain strategy thread that Pliny strated yesterday, (1) what are the disadvantages of eVent, and (2) is there another fabric besides Gore/eVent that is low cost, effective, and durable?

Jasonlivy, among others, was very eloquent explaining the differences between the different varieties of GoreTex, and what the advantages and disadvantages of each of those fabrics are.

They also explained why eVent was more breathable than GoreTex in many environments.

The thread also cited eVent as being less durable. Whether this is Gore generated propoganda or not, I'm interested in knowing if there are any eVent users out there who have experienced problems with their eVent garments, and if so, what were they?

Also, is there a lower cost (than Gore or eVent) laminate that has proven to be durable and effective?

I've a practical thrust behind my question. My HyVent NorthFace Shell started delaminating after about 5 years of use, and is no longer watertight despite refreshing the DWR. Both the HyVent and some of the seam tape are peeling off. I need a replacement in the $70-$200 range (less $ is better) and durability is a concern.

Sincerely

Steadman

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#124106 - 11/20/09 10:26 AM Re: Disadvantages of eVent? [Re: Steadman]
Keith Offline
member

Registered: 01/04/02
Posts: 1666
Loc: Michigan's Upper Peninsula
Quote:
Also, is there a lower cost (than Gore or eVent) laminate that has proven to be durable and effective?


The Frogg Toggs/Dri Ducks fabrics are very effective, probably by far the most breathable laminates out there and really cheap. Neither are they elegant. One could almost say crude. However, I have kept dry in all day rains.

They are not heavy-duty, either. However, they are adequate for on-trail hiking. And, you can just patch a rip with duct tape.

In summary,if you need features like pockets, anatomic hoods,or bushwhacking durability, these aren't for you. Also if you want a garment that can do double duty between trail hiking and trips to the mall, these won't make the fashion statement you want to make.

But if you want something that is highly breathable, waterproof for trail hiking and perhaps emergency tire-changing in the rain, these products will do quite nicely at a price that can't be approached by a wide margin by any other WPB laminate.
_________________________
Human Resources Memo: Floggings will continue until morale improves.

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#124107 - 11/20/09 10:47 AM Re: Disadvantages of eVent? [Re: Steadman]
CWF Offline
member

Registered: 08/22/06
Posts: 266
I've used eVENT and Gortex (paclite and XCR) in many environments with both bivvies and clothing. I have never had a durability issue with eVENT but have with Gprtax Paclite. However it is important to know that 3ply eVENT (used by Integral Designs for example) is much more durable than 2 ply with the exposed membrane. It is also heavier.

Not that Jason is a super guy but he is a representative of several outdoor brands, all of which, I believe, employ Gortex and not eVENT. I have found eVENT to be the best combination of durability, waterproofness, and breathability. The difference in breathability between any of the Gortex line and 3 ply eVENT is pretty extreme and immediately noticeable. I have used eVENT bivvies in constant, hard, 5 hour rain without so much as a drop of condensation. I can't sayt he same about Gortex.

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#124108 - 11/20/09 10:59 AM Re: Disadvantages of eVent? [Re: Keith]
ringtail Offline
member

Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 2296
Loc: Colorado Rockies
Keith,

I wear a windshirt over the DriDucks. Even the branches around my hammock and putting up the bear bag would snag the DriDucks. It seems goofy use a $60 shirt to protect a $15 jacket, but it works great.

Better utility than eVent,

Lighter than eVent, and

Fraction of the cost.

However, I wear the expensive parka while shopping at REI. crazy
_________________________
"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not."
Yogi Berra

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#124109 - 11/20/09 11:18 AM Re: Disadvantages of eVent? [Re: Keith]
DJ2 Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 1348
Loc: Seattle, WA
I agree. I've tried a half dozen different waterprrof/breathable jackets. The DriDucks are the only ones that have even come close to keeping the rain out while letting my self produced vapor out.

The system only works with low exertion on my part. Add hills or a pack and I'm wet inside from perspiration.


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#124110 - 11/20/09 11:21 AM Re: Disadvantages of eVent? [Re: ringtail]
CWF Offline
member

Registered: 08/22/06
Posts: 266
Dri Ducks have a lower hydrostatic head and are a fraction of the durability. Much cheaper but if you actually use them on a regular basis you will go through a few pairs a year.

Typical disposable gear - great for the landfills.

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#124111 - 11/20/09 11:22 AM Re: Disadvantages of eVent? [Re: DJ2]
CWF Offline
member

Registered: 08/22/06
Posts: 266
Which eVENT jacket did you use?

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#124133 - 11/20/09 08:54 PM Re: Disadvantages of eVent? [Re: CWF]
Keith Offline
member

Registered: 01/04/02
Posts: 1666
Loc: Michigan's Upper Peninsula
Originally Posted By CWF
Dri Ducks have a lower hydrostatic head and are a fraction of the durability. Much cheaper but if you actually use them on a regular basis you will go through a few pairs a year.

Typical disposable gear - great for the landfills.


The sad thing is that eVent and Goretex are also disposable -- just a longer interval. But, that said . . .

I had a Frogg Toggs outfit that lasted several years. As I mentioned, they are perfectly adequate for on-trail use. For bushwhacking they would shred quickly, but a person should have the sense not do use them for that application.
_________________________
Human Resources Memo: Floggings will continue until morale improves.

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#124139 - 11/20/09 11:27 PM Re: Disadvantages of eVent? [Re: Keith]
CWF Offline
member

Registered: 08/22/06
Posts: 266
On the windy west coast of Vancouver Island I had my Jacket rip at the hood. 45 minutes into my trek. For non-inclement weather I am sure the Dri-ducks are fine. For any sort of inclement conditions I believe they suck.

As far as the eventuality of any gear failing, that is probably correct. But at least the landfills aren't filled with eVENT jackets. I have a Gortex jacket that was used almost daily for over 10 years still in great shape. I don't use it anymore because of eVENT.

On the other hand, I would want to rely on gear rather than hope it makes it.

eVENT also has another benefit over the Dri-Ducks. The fabric is much better as a wind block.


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#124161 - 11/21/09 10:54 PM Re: Disadvantages of eVent? [Re: CWF]
Keith Offline
member

Registered: 01/04/02
Posts: 1666
Loc: Michigan's Upper Peninsula
Originally Posted By CWF
On the windy west coast of Vancouver Island I had my Jacket rip at the hood. 45 minutes into my trek. For non-inclement weather I am sure the Dri-ducks are fine. For any sort of inclement conditions I believe they suck.

As far as the eventuality of any gear failing, that is probably correct. But at least the landfills aren't filled with eVENT jackets. I have a Gortex jacket that was used almost daily for over 10 years still in great shape. I don't use it anymore because of eVENT.

On the other hand, I would want to rely on gear rather than hope it makes it.

eVENT also has another benefit over the Dri-Ducks. The fabric is much better as a wind block.



I understand there is a difference between Dri-Ducks and Frogg Toggs. I haven't used D-D, but apparently they are less durable than F-T. F-T is adequate for on trail. People have done the entire Appalachian Trail with F-T. So there is an un arguable track record out there.

Also, my experience with Frogg Toggs is that they do block wind. I have one of the super light 3 oz windshells (don't remember brand at the moment) which is so much nicer to handle and wear that I carry it for wind regardless of rain gear I'm carrying. In other words, F-T with proper under layers works well for rain but I wouln't want it bare against my skin.
_________________________
Human Resources Memo: Floggings will continue until morale improves.

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#124164 - 11/22/09 01:10 AM Re: Disadvantages of eVent? [Re: Keith]
CWF Offline
member

Registered: 08/22/06
Posts: 266
Better luck than me. Ironically, Propore is NOT as breathable as eVENT as some have said.

Tissue paper will block some wind, but Frogg Toggs are not as wind proof as eVENT or say Pertex, which many wind shirts are made out of.

The fact is...buy what you want. Where what you want. The OP asked about the disadvantages of eVENT. There aren't any...unless price is an issue.

(don't say weight either. Westcomb has an 8oz 3 ply eVENT jacket available in 2010)

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#124224 - 11/23/09 02:20 AM Re: Disadvantages of eVent? [Re: CWF]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
Thanks for the vote of confidence blush. Actually I used to rep for (and still am enamored by) Westcomb and feel the exact same as you concerning Gore-Tex. I will just say I'm not a fan of Gore...

I use almost exclusively eVENT and try to avoid Gore-Tex as much as possible.

One thing in regards to the durability of eVENT and Westcomb is how they tape the seams. I took a tour of their factory in Vancouver and came away tremendously impressed! One of the things I learned in regards to durability of Westcomb's taped eVENT 3-ply jackets is how they apply the seam tape. They only have 5 people in the factory that can do it and it takes them a year to be trained. It takes a serious amount of patience and concentration (it's all done by hand). They can only go at a pace of about 5 inches per second which is excruciatingly slow when compared to Gore-Tex seam sealing (around 20 - 30 inches per second). The reason why Gore can be taped so much faster is the polyurethane, monolithic membrane which plagues Gore-Tex. Because of this PU coating, taping Gore-Tex is super easy because the tape adheres to this layer. However, eVENT doesn't have a PU layer (which makes it much more breathable), but it's also not as easy to adhere the tape (like trying to apply tape to teflon). What they have to do is go really slow and apply much more pressure so that the glue is forced literally through the ePTFE membrane holes (9 billion holes per square inch) and on to the face material. Gabriel, one of the founders of Westcomb, told me that no one who works at Westcomb has ever taped a Gore-Tex shell. He said it would ruin them because you can tape it so much faster. He's afraid that they'll get in too big of a hurry and thus ruin the jacket. They put a tremendous amount of effort into durability, quality of construction, materials, and fit. It was absolutely amazing!

eVENT, currently, is the most breathable membrane available, and when combined with one of the top outerwear manufacturers in the world, Westcomb, just as durable as Gore-Tex. I don't rep for them anymore, but I do believe in them wholeheartedy and use their stuff exclusively...
_________________________
Believe, then you will Understand...

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#124232 - 11/23/09 10:57 AM Re: Disadvantages of eVent? [Re: jasonlivy]
Steadman Offline
member

Registered: 09/17/09
Posts: 511
Loc: Virginia
Jason

The only problem I have with Westcomb is that their website provides no detail as to the features, specifications, and cost of their products. Maybe I'm doing something wrong??

Also, their distribution network seems to be more west coast/ northern states as well; I live in VA, so getting to a store to check out their products is difficult.

Lacking a mass produced eVent product, this lemming is probably going to have to go with Gore as his next best solution to having a waterproof jacket that I can use for both town and field use. Look forward to seeing how the technology spreads and develops over the next couple years...

Sincerely

Steadman

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#124296 - 11/24/09 03:17 AM Re: Disadvantages of eVent? [Re: Steadman]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By Steadman
Jason

The only problem I have with Westcomb is that their website provides no detail as to the features, specifications, and cost of their products. Maybe I'm doing something wrong??

Also, their distribution network seems to be more west coast/ northern states as well; I live in VA, so getting to a store to check out their products is difficult.

Lacking a mass produced eVent product, this lemming is probably going to have to go with Gore as his next best solution to having a waterproof jacket that I can use for both town and field use. Look forward to seeing how the technology spreads and develops over the next couple years...

Sincerely

Steadman
There are a few places you can find them on the web depending on your size. The jacket I would recommend is the Westcomb Specter LT. It weighs in at 11.5 oz and had an incredible hood and amazing detail. I found a size Lg in black on Backcountry Experience's website. I know this shop well and they are top notch!

Another option is Rab. Their quality isn't quite that of Westcomb (more like North Face, Mountain Hardware) but is still pretty good. They also use exclusively eVENT. I don't know many details but have talked to a few friends who like there jackets. I've tried a few on and they fit me pretty well.

I would recommend going with eVENT even with the question of durability still up in the air. I know Rab has a lifetime warranty as does Westcomb so if you do run into problems they should take care of it. They stumble over themselves to make sure you're happy, especially as this is something they can do to compete against Gore. I think you will be much happier than getting Gore-Tex, especially when you're hot and sweaty in the Gore jacket wishing you would have gone the dry route with eVENT smile.
_________________________
Believe, then you will Understand...

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#124336 - 11/24/09 02:09 PM Re: Disadvantages of eVent? [Re: jasonlivy]
Steadman Offline
member

Registered: 09/17/09
Posts: 511
Loc: Virginia
Wow... that's a $300 jacket.

I think I'm going to have to go with one of the spray ons, or get a GORE PacLite jacket on sale. They are a little closer to what I'm willing to spend... for now.

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#124356 - 11/24/09 06:55 PM Re: Disadvantages of eVent? [Re: Steadman]
CWF Offline
member

Registered: 08/22/06
Posts: 266
@ Backcountryoutlet.com, they have the OR Zealot on sale from $199 to $79. Gortex Paclite but only one color and L and XL.

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#124618 - 12/02/09 11:27 PM Re: Disadvantages of eVent? [Re: Steadman]
BrianLe Offline
member

Registered: 02/26/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Washington State, King County
"Wow... that's a $300 jacket."

I don't intend any thread drift here, but as an aside, unless you really think that you personally (your metabolism and hiking style) will keep you dry in such a jacket, I'd consider either a cheaper rain jacket with extensive pit/side zips, or a poncho. For me (my style and metabolism), it's hopeless to think of staying really dry when backpacking much in the rain, it's about temperature control (staying warm, but not too warm). A poncho works great for me in doing that.
_________________________
Brian Lewis
http://postholer.com/brianle

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