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#102297 - 09/03/08 06:54 PM My New Water Filter Design
jasonklass Offline
member

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 551
Loc: Denver, Colorado
I finally figured out how to rig my Auquamira Frontier Pro to create a filtration system that works in both gravity mode and as a hydration system. Plus, it's under 5 ounces. I tested it out on Mt. Whitney a couple of weeks ago and am really happy with it. Here's a video about it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSYWoplv_Uo
_________________________
Gear Talk There's no such thing as having too many sporks!

Backpack Flyfishing Tight lines,light packs


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#102298 - 09/03/08 08:41 PM Re: My New Water Filter Design [Re: jasonklass]
bigfoot2 Offline
member

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 1432
Loc: Eugene , Oregon
Jason,
Very cool! Get a patent QUICK!

BF <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Hammockers aren't stuck up, they're just above it all.

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#102299 - 09/03/08 09:58 PM Re: My New Water Filter Design [Re: bigfoot2]
jasonklass Offline
member

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 551
Loc: Denver, Colorado
Quote:
Jason,
Very cool! Get a patent QUICK!

BF <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />


Hey Bigfoot,
Ha, ha. I'm sure Aquamira has already beaten me to it!
_________________________
Gear Talk There's no such thing as having too many sporks!

Backpack Flyfishing Tight lines,light packs


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#102300 - 09/04/08 03:53 AM Re: My New Water Filter Design [Re: jasonklass]
CamperMom Offline
member

Registered: 01/04/02
Posts: 1201
Loc: Eastern MA, USA
Jason-

Nice job on the video. I did a quick look at a review of the Aqua Mira filter. I'm surprised that it doesn't talk about the filter's removing bacteria or virii. It does say that the carbon filter removes foul tastes and odors. With that second piece of information, I'm thinking you could use the much cheaper chlorine bleach to kill bacteria and virii and save some $$ over the chlorine dioxide tablets or drops. That is, if you wished to do so. Chlorine dioxide's advantgages were that it tasted better and did a better job on the larger beasties that this filter does take out. Hmm!

Regards,

CamperMom

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#102301 - 09/04/08 07:21 AM Re: My New Water Filter Design [Re: jasonklass]
chaz Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Tennessee
Yes, they may have a patent on the filter but maybe not the way you use it. You could apply for a design patent but not a utility patent. I once invented a device that would hold a syringe needle so a nurse could recap avoiding contracting a disease etc. I spent several thousand dollars before I could get a medical company to pick up the idea and put into production. We had a patent attourney on retainer and even received our first royalty check. A few months went by and we were advised that the patent search turned up several similar devices and should drop the idea. About the same time the medical company decided to drop the device due to poor sales and offered us the molds and dies for several thousand dollars. I wasn't about to spend any more money and even lost the royalty check ($10.83). So my conclusion after jumping through all those creative hoops was, if you have a good idea for something either 1. forget about it or 2. put into production and hope someone doesn't sue you.

Planning my next escape...

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#102302 - 09/04/08 10:44 AM Re: My New Water Filter Design [Re: chaz]
Spock Offline
member

Registered: 01/10/06
Posts: 679
Loc: Central Texas
Chaz,
Forget about it or put it in production ASAP. That's good advice. I've designed a number of items that have gone into production, but have not patented a single one. I am philosophically opposed to current patent law which now allows patents on "state of the art" ideas. "State of the art" means the best of what everyone is commonly doing. It is best understood as "the current state of the art." Patents once were allowed only on advances to the state of the art. New stuff. The same problem applies to copyright. You can copyright common phrases, songs and so forth that are part of the public domain. The system is nuts and tends to stiffle innovation instead of encouraging it. AAAAAAAAAAA!

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#102303 - 09/04/08 12:06 PM Re: My New Water Filter Design [Re: Spock]
chaz Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Tennessee
I think the patent laws are designed for the benifit of the attoneys. You would think that they could do a patent search faster than 2-3 months. Take minibull designs for instance. He makes and sells his stuff. He may have come up with good ideas to the designs of stoves etc, but I don't think he was the first to come up with the basic idea. Seems that if you are thinking of a good idea, probably a thousand other minds are thinking about a similar idea. I was trying to form a start up electronic drum co a few years back and ran into the same problem. So many similar ideas on the net and all claim to have the newest and greatest. but in reality, they were only slightly different.
Oh and Jason, I would buy your water filter setup if you decide to produce them. I researched the pieces and although your setup is lighter, by the time I put it all together I could just buy something commercial. So think about selling em. You wouldn't be infringing on the basic idea and you wouldbe using parts for sale by others anyway. What would be their complaint? I think it's time for Klass Designs to become a viable producer of lightweight Bpacking goods. And that goes for anyone else that can pull it off with a needed product. I have other ideas that could be marketed and some are variations I learned about on this site. The irony is that I've been PMed and called brilliant for something that someone else came up with. I did fess up though and didn't take credit for it. But the idea, even though not my own could still be marketed.

Planning my next escape...

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#102304 - 09/04/08 05:18 PM Re: My New Water Filter Design [Re: CamperMom]
jasonklass Offline
member

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 551
Loc: Denver, Colorado
Quote:
Jason-

Nice job on the video. I did a quick look at a review of the Aqua Mira filter. I'm surprised that it doesn't talk about the filter's removing bacteria or virii. It does say that the carbon filter removes foul tastes and odors. With that second piece of information, I'm thinking you could use the much cheaper chlorine bleach to kill bacteria and virii and save some $$ over the chlorine dioxide tablets or drops. That is, if you wished to do so. Chlorine dioxide's advantgages were that it tasted better and did a better job on the larger beasties that this filter does take out. Hmm!

Regards,

CamperMom


Hi Campermom,
Yes, some people have already suggested to me that bleach would work just as well. I think I'll try that when my tablets run out. Does the bleach taste weird? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Gear Talk There's no such thing as having too many sporks!

Backpack Flyfishing Tight lines,light packs


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#102305 - 09/04/08 05:21 PM Re: My New Water Filter Design [Re: chaz]
jasonklass Offline
member

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 551
Loc: Denver, Colorado
Quote:
Yes, they may have a patent on the filter but maybe not the way you use it. You could apply for a design patent but not a utility patent. I once invented a device that would hold a syringe needle so a nurse could recap avoiding contracting a disease etc. I spent several thousand dollars before I could get a medical company to pick up the idea and put into production. We had a patent attourney on retainer and even received our first royalty check. A few months went by and we were advised that the patent search turned up several similar devices and should drop the idea. About the same time the medical company decided to drop the device due to poor sales and offered us the molds and dies for several thousand dollars. I wasn't about to spend any more money and even lost the royalty check ($10.83). So my conclusion after jumping through all those creative hoops was, if you have a good idea for something either 1. forget about it or 2. put into production and hope someone doesn't sue you.

Planning my next escape...


Hey Chaz,
I don't have that kind of money to even give it a shot so looks like I have to forget about it. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Gear Talk There's no such thing as having too many sporks!

Backpack Flyfishing Tight lines,light packs


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#102306 - 09/04/08 05:26 PM Re: My New Water Filter Design [Re: chaz]
jasonklass Offline
member

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 551
Loc: Denver, Colorado
Quote:

Oh and Jason, I would buy your water filter setup if you decide to produce them. I researched the pieces and although your setup is lighter, by the time I put it all together I could just buy something commercial. So think about selling em. You wouldn't be infringing on the basic idea and you wouldbe using parts for sale by others anyway. What would be their complaint? I think it's time for Klass Designs to become a viable producer of lightweight Bpacking goods. And that goes for anyone else that can pull it off with a needed product. I have other ideas that could be marketed and some are variations I learned about on this site. The irony is that I've been PMed and called brilliant for something that someone else came up with. I did fess up though and didn't take credit for it. But the idea, even though not my own could still be marketed.

Planning my next escape...


Ha, ha. Thanks for the encouragement Chaz, but by the time I bought all the components, there's no way I could sell it for a price point that could make a good profit. I'd rather just have people make their own out of the components they alreay have and enjoy! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Gear Talk There's no such thing as having too many sporks!

Backpack Flyfishing Tight lines,light packs


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#102307 - 09/04/08 07:20 PM Re: My New Water Filter Design [Re: chaz]
bigfoot2 Offline
member

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 1432
Loc: Eugene , Oregon
Quote:
I think it's time for Klass Designs to become a viable producer of lightweight Bpacking goods. And that goes for anyone else that can pull it off with a needed product. I have other ideas that could be marketed and some are variations I learned about on this site. The irony is that I've been PMed and called brilliant for something that someone else came up with. I did fess up though and didn't take credit for it. But the idea, even though not my own could still be marketed.


Actually, i have been toying with the idea. I even went so far as to contact some different manufacturing companies overseas to see what kind of price points i could sell the gear at. I have designed my own backpacks, quilts, and even tents (Tarptent Sub-Lite ring a bell?), and would love to do it just to sell some gear that I would actually buy myself, not to make a million dollars (Big Sky ring another bell?). I think we need to start a TLB co-op and design and build our own gear! We have members here that are expert lawyers, design, manufacturing and retail specialists, as well as sales reps. What are we all waiting for?

BF <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Hammockers aren't stuck up, they're just above it all.

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#102308 - 09/05/08 06:32 AM Re: My New Water Filter Design [Re: jasonklass]
chaz Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Tennessee
If you have the time you could build just a couple filters and put them up for sale. Then put the funds back into making a few more and viola, you would be in biz. Backorders are a good thing as long as people don't have to wait forever.
_________________________
Enjoy your next trip...

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#102309 - 09/05/08 06:51 AM Re: My New Water Filter Design [Re: bigfoot2]
chaz Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Tennessee
Quote:
Quote:
I think it's time for Klass Designs to become a viable producer of lightweight Bpacking goods. And that goes for anyone else that can pull it off with a needed product. I have other ideas that could be marketed and some are variations I learned about on this site. The irony is that I've been PMed and called brilliant for something that someone else came up with. I did fess up though and didn't take credit for it. But the idea, even though not my own could still be marketed.


Actually, i have been toying with the idea. I even went so far as to contact some different manufacturing companies overseas to see what kind of price points i could sell the gear at. I have designed my own backpacks, quilts, and even tents (Tarptent Sub-Lite ring a bell?), and would love to do it just to sell some gear that I would actually buy myself, not to make a million dollars (Big Sky ring another bell?). I think we need to start a TLB co-op and design and build our own gear! We have members here that are expert lawyers, design, manufacturing and retail specialists, as well as sales reps. What are we all waiting for?

BF <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />


It's a good idea and like Jason pointed out it takes capital to do it right. I have several ideas myself but are not new just a little different. I love the cottage industry style of producing and selling goods and keep the big boys out of it.
Example, when I was in the music biz (many years) we hired music lawyers to shop us to major lables and blew a lot of OPM (other peoples money) to no aviale. We then decided to produce our own stuff and release it ourselfs with moderate success. It's still available for sale and a couple of tunes were picked up to replace music in a couple of old TV episodes. Google- Calculated X- (my 80's band)
It would be fun and maybe profitable to start a TLB co-op. I would like to see my ideas and others for sale here. With a portion going to support this site. And maybe enough $$ to do R&D in the woods. Imagine, what a lifestyle.

Planning my next escape...

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#102310 - 09/05/08 07:21 AM Re: My New Water Filter Design [Re: jasonklass]
bigfoot2 Offline
member

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 1432
Loc: Eugene , Oregon
Jason,
Check this out from Tin-Man at AGG:

http://www.antigravitygear.com/proddetail.php?prod=AGGH20

Told ya' it's a good idea!

BF

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Hammockers aren't stuck up, they're just above it all.

Top
#102311 - 09/05/08 09:44 AM Re: My New Water Filter Design [Re: jasonklass]
CamperMom Offline
member

Registered: 01/04/02
Posts: 1201
Loc: Eastern MA, USA
Quote:
[quote]Jason-


Hi Campermom,
Yes, some people have already suggested to me that bleach would work just as well. I think I'll try that when my tablets run out. Does the bleach taste weird? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


Hi, Jason-

If your home water is from a treated public source, you may well taste a bit of chlorine in it, unless you use a filter at home. Brita and others use a cartridge that contains carbon, among other things, to remove chlorine and lead, etc. The filter you chose mentions carbon as a component. It SHOULD take out the chlorine taste. Just be sure you are using plain chlorine bleach, not the newer scented stuff. BTW-the chlorine dioxide does leave some chlorine taste, just not as much as bleach.

CM

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#102312 - 09/05/08 02:11 PM Re: My New Water Filter Design [Re: jasonklass]
Ben2World Offline
member

Registered: 10/26/04
Posts: 1754
Loc: So Cal
Those using chemicals alone should use chlorine dioxide like Micropur to treat all 3 types of baddies: viruses, bacteria and protozoa/cysts.

OTOH, those who pair chemicals with a filter (e.g. Frontier Pro) should just use bleach to kill the first two types -- and rely on the filter to block out the third (larger and harder to kill) type. Why?

Cost Comparison - Treating 30 Quarts of Water

1. Micropur - 30 tablets (1 x 30) - $12.95 plus tax

2. Bleach - 120 droplets (4 x 30) - essentially FREE!!!

A huge three-quart size bottle of bleach costs only $1.79 in a supermarket. 120 droplets thus cost essentially nothing!

Finally, the carbon element in Frontier Pro will remove bad taste in water -- including chemical tastes like chlorine (bleach) or chlorine dioxide (Micropur) -- so no problems treating with either.

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#102313 - 09/05/08 05:27 PM Re: My New Water Filter Design [Re: bigfoot2]
jasonklass Offline
member

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 551
Loc: Denver, Colorado
Quote:
Jason,
Check this out from Tin-Man at AGG:

http://www.antigravitygear.com/proddetail.php?prod=AGGH20

Told ya' it's a good idea!

BF

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />


Thanks for the link. Only problem is that the information on the AGG site is totally wrong. First of all, the Frontier Pro filters down to 2 microns, not 3 as stated. Second of all to effectively remove Cryptosporidium and Giardia, you need a pore size of 1 micron or smaller. So the Frontier Pro does NOT effectively remove them. That's why I use the chemicals in addition to the filter. I wouldn't trust the AGG one without adding chemicals.

The other thing I don't like about the AGG design is that it can ONLY be used as a gravity filter. Mine can be used as a gravity filter, in drinking straw mode, or as a hydration system so it's more versatile. I'm not saying the AGG is a bad design, just a different animal and not as effective in my opinion.


Edited by jasonklass (09/05/08 05:29 PM)
_________________________
Gear Talk There's no such thing as having too many sporks!

Backpack Flyfishing Tight lines,light packs


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#102314 - 09/05/08 06:16 PM Re: My New Water Filter Design [Re: Ben2World]
ToddHeyn Offline
member

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 47
Loc: Easton, PA
How many drops of bleach would or should you use per liter?
_________________________
"Not all who wander are lost." -J. R. R. Tolkien

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#102315 - 09/05/08 06:25 PM Re: My New Water Filter Design [Re: ToddHeyn]
Ben2World Offline
member

Registered: 10/26/04
Posts: 1754
Loc: So Cal
Todd - The American Red Cross website states 16 drops of chlorine per gallon -- meaning 4 drops per liter or quart of water.

However, the EPA website shows a chart with different dosage for different kinds of bleach. Chlorox, for example -- has 5-6% chlorine -- so only 1-2 drops per liter or quart are needed.

For me, I'll stick with 4 drops of Chlorox -- for two reasons:

1. A stronger formula will be more effective in treating viruses and bacteria -- as well as the smaller sized protozoa/cysts. This way, the filter only needs to block out the bigger sized protozoa/cysts.

2. The filter's carbon element will remove any strong chlorine taste -- so no harm in using the stronger "Red Cross dosage".

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#102316 - 09/05/08 06:40 PM Re: My New Water Filter Design [Re: jasonklass]
Ben2World Offline
member

Registered: 10/26/04
Posts: 1754
Loc: So Cal
Jason:

The Frontier Pro pore size is 3.0 microns according to Cabela's product description (Aquamira itself is silent on this). Curious, where did you get your 2.0 micron info? Three micron is a pretty big pore size -- which is why we had our earlier discussion that the Frontier Pro should NOT be used alone -- but should be paired with chemicals -- like Micropur or Aqua Mira or bleach/chlorine.

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#102317 - 09/05/08 07:44 PM Re: My New Water Filter Design [Re: jasonklass]
jshannon Offline
member

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 410
Loc: North Texas
Why does Aqua Mira not give the pore size on their website? They do say their microfilter removes 99.9% of Crypto and Giardia.

If YOU say their filter doesn't effectively remove those bugs, and you treat for 30 minutes before filtering as per your video, are you really treating long enough to kill crypto? No. I'd think the filtering could be removing the chemical from the water, so your chemical treatment time beyond 30 mins could not be relied upon. Your use of "big stuff" and "small stuff" is ambiguous.

With all due respect, using the term invention is best reserved for true inventions, not cutting up a bag to use as a scoop when it's been done by others for years. A ziplock freezerbag is lighter. The same goes for adding string to a platypus to use it upside down. Been done for years by others. Some of the talk of inventions and designs seem odd.

Quote:
Thanks for the link. Only problem is that the information on the AGG site is totally wrong. First of all, the Frontier Pro filters down to 2 microns, not 3 as stated. Second of all to effectively remove Cryptosporidium and Giardia, you need a pore size of 1 micron or smaller. So the Frontier Pro does NOT effectively remove them. That's why I use the chemicals in addition to the filter. I wouldn't trust the AGG one without adding chemicals.

The other thing I don't like about the AGG design is that it can ONLY be used as a gravity filter. Mine can be used as a gravity filter, in drinking straw mode, or as a hydration system so it's more versatile. I'm not saying the AGG is a bad design, just a different animal and not as effective in my opinion.
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Ten Essential Groups

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#102318 - 09/05/08 08:45 PM Re: My New Water Filter Design [Re: jshannon]
Ben2World Offline
member

Registered: 10/26/04
Posts: 1754
Loc: So Cal
Quote:
Your use of "big stuff" and "small stuff" is ambiguous.


John:

I was the one who suggested to Jason that he should pair the Frontier Pro with chemicals. With a 3.0 micron size (according to Cabela's product page of the Frontier Pro) -- the filter is nothing but A TOY. To me, any filter that can't even filter out bacteria reliably is a toy. Period.

However, as a comparison, a "do it all" filter like the First Need is bulky and heavy (15 ounces) -- as opposed to the Frontier's mere 2 oz. My idea was to pair up this "toy" with chemical treatment -- and take the best of both:

(1) use chemicals to kill/neutralize the tiny and easy-to--kill stuff like viruses and bacteria -- then...

(2) use the filter to block out the bigger stuff that would otherwise take chemicals a long time to kill (like giardia with their protective shells).

This combination effectively:

(1) shortens the wait time because the chemicals are not relied on to kill the biggest stuff -- and...

(2) reduces the need for a complex/bulky/heavy filter because it is not relied on to block the very smallest stuff

But to be fair, John, water treatment with any hand-held unit is always going to be both a science AND an art! This is why even fancy filter makers (MSR, Katadyn, etc.) always emphasize the need to find the best water source available! Is that not also ambiguous? As well, one has to be judgmental about treatment time -- depending on both water condition and water temperature (again an art to say the least). If you use chemicals, then you are already "guessing" at treatment time. It's no different at all from guessing how long to wait before passing the water through the Frontier Pro -- as in Jason's video. 30 minutes is merely an example.

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#102319 - 09/05/08 10:24 PM Re: My New Water Filter Design [Re: jasonklass]
mugs Offline
member

Registered: 12/24/05
Posts: 500
Loc: Kent, WA.
Great ideas, would work well in a base camp or when I am out on the rare ocasion with my wife. Other wise too much stuff, weight and clutter. Give me some KLEER and a platy thats all. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
I miss my 4.8lb base weight as a ground dweller. But I sure don't miss the ground.

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#102320 - 09/06/08 06:25 AM Re: My New Water Filter Design [Re: jshannon]
chaz Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Tennessee
Quote:
Why does Aqua Mira not give the pore size on their website? They do say their microfilter removes 99.9% of Crypto and Giardia.

If YOU say their filter doesn't effectively remove those bugs, and you treat for 30 minutes before filtering as per your video, are you really treating long enough to kill crypto? No. I'd think the filtering could be removing the chemical from the water, so your chemical treatment time beyond 30 mins could not be relied upon. Your use of "big stuff" and "small stuff" is ambiguous.

With all due respect, using the term invention is best reserved for true inventions, not cutting up a bag to use as a scoop when it's been done by others for years. A ziplock freezerbag is lighter. The same goes for adding string to a platypus to use it upside down. Been done for years by others. Some of the talk of inventions and designs seem odd.

Quote:
Thanks for the link. Only problem is that the information on the AGG site is totally wrong. First of all, the Frontier Pro filters down to 2 microns, not 3 as stated. Second of all to effectively remove Cryptosporidium and Giardia, you need a pore size of 1 micron or smaller. So the Frontier Pro does NOT effectively remove them. That's why I use the chemicals in addition to the filter. I wouldn't trust the AGG one without adding chemicals.

The other thing I don't like about the AGG design is that it can ONLY be used as a gravity filter. Mine can be used as a gravity filter, in drinking straw mode, or as a hydration system so it's more versatile. I'm not saying the AGG is a bad design, just a different animal and not as effective in my opinion.


YOU think the talk of inventions and designs see odd. Go tell that to Nike when they apply for a patent on a different design for the shape of the bottom of an athletic shoe. It's called a design patent. No one invented the wheel per se'. but there are thousands of patents for things that go round.
BTW sorry for quoting the whole post. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Enjoy your next trip...

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#102321 - 09/06/08 07:16 AM Re: My New Water Filter Design [Re: jshannon]
jasonklass Offline
member

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 551
Loc: Denver, Colorado
Quote:
Why does Aqua Mira not give the pore size on their website? They do say their microfilter removes 99.9% of Crypto and Giardia.

If YOU say their filter doesn't effectively remove those bugs, and you treat for 30 minutes before filtering as per your video, are you really treating long enough to kill crypto? No. I'd think the filtering could be removing the chemical from the water, so your chemical treatment time beyond 30 mins could not be relied upon. Your use of "big stuff" and "small stuff" is ambiguous.

With all due respect, using the term invention is best reserved for true inventions, not cutting up a bag to use as a scoop when it's been done by others for years. A ziplock freezerbag is lighter. The same goes for adding string to a platypus to use it upside down. Been done for years by others. Some of the talk of inventions and designs seem odd.


On the first point are you suggesting that after the 30 min. the filter removes the checmical and so any effects it would have had are negated? Whatever the chemical killed is already dead so even if the filter removes the chemical, it doesn't mean that it reverses it's effect. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point?

On the second point, I'm not really interested in debating the semantics of the word "invention" in this thread. That's just the syntax I chose in the video which wasn't scripted or scrutinized for such details. You can substitute "invented by" for "suggested by" if you like. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Gear Talk There's no such thing as having too many sporks!

Backpack Flyfishing Tight lines,light packs


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#102322 - 09/06/08 07:19 AM Re: My New Water Filter Design [Re: Ben2World]
jasonklass Offline
member

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 551
Loc: Denver, Colorado
Quote:
Jason:

The Frontier Pro pore size is 3.0 microns according to Cabela's product description (Aquamira itself is silent on this). Curious, where did you get your 2.0 micron info?


That's what it said on the website where I bought it but maybe that was incorrect? I went Aquamira's website and they don't give the pore size--just like you said. I'm going to contact them to find out what the true size is.
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#102323 - 09/06/08 07:44 AM Re: My New Water Filter Design [Re: Ben2World]
CamperMom Offline
member

Registered: 01/04/02
Posts: 1201
Loc: Eastern MA, USA
Guys-

A few things about chlorine bleach. It can be carcinogenic. I use it for laundry and some cleaning at home, but try to avoid inhaling fumes/vapors and skin contact. I don't want to ingest more of it than is necessary. I don't know if the carbon filters remove the carcinogenic properties with the taste. I would hope so. Sometime it is how a chemical reacts with other things that leads to carcinogens, so maybe those are still in the water. Again, I don't know on this one.

You can use less bleach (or Aqua Mira) if you increase the contact time, FYI. So, If you can let the water sit for double the time, such as overnight, the dosage can be reduced. This can save money, chemical exposure, AND our taste buds.

Check the label on your bleach bottle. The house brand from the "Dollar Store" may well have a lower concentration of chlorine than Clorox brand, and now bleach is being sold in the "Ultra," or concentrated form. You may wish to plan your number of drops accordingly. And, repeating from another post, make sure you use the plain, old-fashioned bleach, not the fancy, scented stuff.

Letting water sit uncovered for several hours can also allow chlorine to evaporate, too.

Regards,

CamperMom

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#102324 - 09/06/08 08:00 AM Re: My New Water Filter Design [Re: CamperMom]
Ben2World Offline
member

Registered: 10/26/04
Posts: 1754
Loc: So Cal
Good points, CamperMom!

More is not always better -- which is why I looked into various websites -- such as the American Red Cross and EPA -- for chlorine dosage. One good thing -- when following directions and using a reasonable quantity -- the carbon in the filter will remove (adsorb) leftover chlorine -- and thereby removing its taste as well.

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#102325 - 09/06/08 08:09 AM Re: My New Water Filter Design [Re: CamperMom]
chaz Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Tennessee
Quote:
Letting water sit uncovered for several hours can also allow chlorine to evaporate, too.


Our drinking water here is treated with cholrine and you can taste it. When filling/changing the fish bowl we let the water sit in the window for 24 hrs before putting the fish in it. I also have a small fish pond and when I top off the water, they kinda go into a mild shock for a few hours. I have lost fish that way. I think ingesting any chemicals is probably bad but what would be the result of getting sick from untreated water. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
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#102326 - 09/06/08 08:56 AM Pore Size = 2 microns or .2 microns? [Re: jasonklass]
DJ2 Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 1348
Loc: Seattle, WA
Just checked REI's info on filters. They say the filters they sell range in pore size from .2 microns to .4 microns. Note the decimal point.

Is the aqua mira filter really 2 or 3 microns? Note the lack of decimal point.

In other words, is the pore size of the aqua mira about 10 times bigger than the pore size of the more commonly used filters?

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#102327 - 09/06/08 09:11 AM Re: Pore Size = 2 microns or .2 microns? [Re: DJ2]
DJ2 Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 1348
Loc: Seattle, WA
Just checked Cabella's web site. Here's what they say:

"removes 99.9% of giardia, cryptosporidium and other contaminants down to 3 microns," (that's without a decimal point)

REI says the contaminants can be as small as .5 (with decimal) microns so that leaves a lot of room for bad things to go through the filter.

The words in the quote above don't really say the filter takes out 99.9% of the contaminants. It says it takes out 99.9% of the contaminants down to 3 microns in size. I could say, similarly, that a chain link fence fabric takes out 99.9% of the contaminants down to 2" in size.

Soooo, I like the gravity system idea but I would use a finer filter (and probably not bother with the micropur tablets in the Pacific Northwest).

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#102328 - 09/07/08 08:46 AM Sawyer Inline Filter [Re: jasonklass]
DJ2 Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 1348
Loc: Seattle, WA
The Sawyer Inline Filter may be a good alternative to the filter in your system. It filters down to .1 (with decimal) according to REI and weighs less than 2 ounces. Here's a link:

http://www.rei.com/product/778041

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#102329 - 09/07/08 10:59 AM Re: Sawyer Inline Filter [Re: DJ2]
bigfoot2 Offline
member

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 1432
Loc: Eugene , Oregon
Great choice, but more than twice the cost.

BF <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
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#102330 - 09/07/08 02:45 PM Re: Sawyer Inline Filter [Re: DJ2]
Ben2World Offline
member

Registered: 10/26/04
Posts: 1754
Loc: So Cal
DJ2:

The numbers are correct. Quality pump filters have pore sizes of 0.2 (MSR) to 0.3 (Katadyn) micron. Sawyer purifier is 0.1, Seychelle inline is 2.0 and the AquaMira Frontier Pro is 3.0. I would NOT use either a Seychelle or a Frontier Pro all by itself. A filter that can't block out bacteria reliably is a toy. However, these "toys" can still serve a purpose if paired with chemicals.


I've used the Sawyer in-line purifier. Two big negatives (for me):

1. No carbon element -- meaning the purifier cannot improve water taste by adsorbing chemicals. If the water source tastes bad -- or if you've added chemicals for treatment -- then the water passing through the purifier will still carry the bad taste.

2. Priming -- this purifier requires priming with a water faucet attachment before each use -- not just the first time when new -- but EVERY TIME after it's been dry in-between uses! If you don't, then water will come out tediously slow -- be it sucking or using as gravity feed. The force of a faucet is required to thoroughly prime (wet out) the filter -- priming CANNOT be done by giving the thing a few extra suckings while in the field.

No. 2 essentially renders the filter's dry weight as meaningless. The true carry weight is the weight of the filter soaked -- I don't remember what that was exactly any more, but likely around 6-7 ounces.

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#102331 - 12/08/08 04:13 PM Re: My New Water Filter Design [Re: CamperMom]
cistchap Offline


Registered: 12/08/08
Posts: 4
Loc: KY
When using a filter, I prefer to NOT use a chemical. Instead I use coloidal silver. Silver has been used for generations to kill bacteria including Giardia and Crypto. I understand it kills on contact and wait times are reduced as well as being unaffected as much by temp. I have a link somewhere to NASAs use of silver in the space program.
I have sampled water from a pool of water containing crypto. I gave it to a lab tech in the water business to confirm this. We added five drops of CS 500 ppm to 8oz container and the crypto was dead in 2 min (room temp). We did not retest on larger quantities though.
Although there was Crypto in the water, I want to explain that it was NOT abundant!
It was estimated that there was a VERY small concentration in the gallon we collected. However, since it only take one protozoa to cause problems.....

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#102332 - 12/08/08 06:16 PM Re: My New Water Filter Design [Re: cistchap]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
Quote:
When using a filter, I prefer to NOT use a chemical. Instead I use coloidal silver. Silver has been used for generations to kill bacteria including Giardia and Crypto.


So you don't trust the filter? I'm given to understand filters usually work fine on Giardia and Crypto and fail at virii, which are killed rapidly by a few drops of chemistry.
_________________________
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#102333 - 12/09/08 11:08 PM Re: My New Water Filter Design [Re: cistchap]
ronin Offline
member

Registered: 08/09/04
Posts: 41
Quote:
When using a filter, I prefer to NOT use a chemical. Instead I use coloidal silver. Silver has been used for generations to kill bacteria including Giardia and Crypto. I understand it kills on contact and wait times are reduced as well as being unaffected as much by temp. I have a link somewhere to NASAs use of silver in the space program.
I have sampled water from a pool of water containing crypto. I gave it to a lab tech in the water business to confirm this. We added five drops of CS 500 ppm to 8oz container and the crypto was dead in 2 min (room temp). We did not retest on larger quantities though.
Although there was Crypto in the water, I want to explain that it was NOT abundant!
It was estimated that there was a VERY small concentration in the gallon we collected. However, since it only take one protozoa to cause problems.....


I call BS on this one.

Peace,

Richard.

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#102334 - 12/10/08 03:39 PM Re: My New Water Filter Design [Re: ronin]
cistchap Offline


Registered: 12/08/08
Posts: 4
Loc: KY
http://www.doulton.ca/silver.html

Call what you want. Read the above material and do some research BEFORE you call anything. Unfortunatly I cannot produce findings for my experiment. It was not done on an official basis however anytime you want to join me for a drink of infected water treated with silver I'll drink the first glass.

[color:"red"]"It was NASA that first designed an ionization system for their Apollo flights. The Johnson Space Center developed an electrolytic silver ion generator only slightly larger than a cigarette pack and weighing only 9 ounces. This small ionizer required minimal power and no astronaut monitoring. Mounted at various locations in the potable water supply and wastewater systems, the ionizer would dispense silver ions to eliminate bacteria and viruses. In 1962, silver was approved for use in drinking water by the U.S. Public Health Service.

Today, copper is recognized as one of the best algaecide killers known to man. Oxides and sulfates of copper are used for pesticides, algaecides and fungicides. Pool stores worldwide sell copper based algaecide to kill black algae - the toughest of all to kill.

Silver has been known as an effective bacteria and virus killer for centuries. Silver sulphate is the standard antibacterial treatment for burns and any type or an open wound, and is used to protect the eyes of newborns. Activated carbon filters, for drinking water purification, are impregnated with silver to prevent bacterial build-up. Silver is used as the drinking water purification for half the world's airlines and in over 1,000 passenger ships. Soft drink, beer, liquor, wine and other beverages are rendered safe and more palatable by the addition of silver in over 60 countries."[/color]


taken from : www.biophysica.com/water.html

also read www.edc-cu.org/pdf/Silver%20Paper.pdf



I don't put myself at unnecessary risk in the wild. I've traveled many miles and have stayed in the wilderness far beyond the trails that most people walk on. I teach outdoor survival skills and I know what I'm talking about.

Let's have that drink


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#102335 - 12/10/08 03:43 PM Re: My New Water Filter Design [Re: lori]
cistchap Offline


Registered: 12/08/08
Posts: 4
Loc: KY
Read the post. "WHEN USING A FILTER....... I just do not add chemical to the water. In my opinion it's more dangerous than the water sometimes. I use silver.

If you do not have a filter that will catch the smaller protozoa than you need to use another method in combination perhaps. If you wish, you can simply boil the water.

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#102336 - 12/11/08 04:34 PM Re: My New Water Filter Design [Re: cistchap]
chaz Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Tennessee
Quote:
"It was NASA that first designed an ionization system for their Apollo flights. The Johnson Space Center developed an electrolytic silver ion generator only slightly larger than a cigarette pack and weighing only 9 ounces. This small ionizer required minimal power and no astronaut monitoring. Mounted at various locations in the potable water supply and wastewater systems, the ionizer would dispense silver ions to eliminate bacteria and viruses. In 1962, silver was approved for use in drinking water by the U.S. Public Health Service.

Today, copper is recognized as one of the best algaecide killers known to man. Oxides and sulfates of copper are used for pesticides, algaecides and fungicides. Pool stores worldwide sell copper based algaecide to kill black algae - the toughest of all to kill.

Silver has been known as an effective bacteria and virus killer for centuries. Silver sulphate is the standard antibacterial treatment for burns and any type or an open wound, and is used to protect the eyes of newborns. Activated carbon filters, for drinking water purification, are impregnated with silver to prevent bacterial build-up. Silver is used as the drinking water purification for half the world's airlines and in over 1,000 passenger ships. Soft drink, beer, liquor, wine and other beverages are rendered safe and more palatable by the addition of silver in over 60 countries."


Wow! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />Compelling information...... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> I'm sold. What filters for Bpacking use silver? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Enjoy your next trip...

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#102337 - 12/11/08 05:48 PM Re: My New Water Filter Design [Re: chaz]
cistchap Offline


Registered: 12/08/08
Posts: 4
Loc: KY
I have never researched which filters are available with this feature outside of the studies done in the sited links. All I do is dip water from a creek, add 10 - 15 drops of coloidal silver 500ppm to a quart. If the water is very questionable I filter it with MSR after 10 min.
Usually I just drink it after 10 - 15 min of swirling it around.
I've taken water from still water and moving rivers. I only got sick once in my life from water(Giardia). I was in Cancun Mexico. I had no silver with me. Thats somewhat ironic because Mexico is the worlds largest silver producer!

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