Many people believe the old addage that a dull knife is dangerous and a real outdoorsman has a bowie knife sharp enough to shave with. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> When we buy a new Gerber its as sharp as they can hone it. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> There is never a statement on the package saying "This knife is only 90% sharpened for your safety." <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
So put it this way, if you are camping and you are going to cut yourself, would you rather have a run in with a butter knife or a scalpel? I made this rule for myself - If I am carrying an extremely sharp knife [ I no longer hone my knives toextreme edge] I would stop at the first rock at the trailhead and open the blade and draw the edge once over the rock, to dull it. Its hard to cut to the bone with anything but an extremely sharp knife. And why do we need a sharp knife camping - to cut nylon string - use scissors. Scissors are much more useful on most camping trips than a knife - except for a butter knife which can be wooden even. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> YMMV Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
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These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.
I carry a miniBuck 350 multi-tool and a pair of sewing scissors. I expect to use some part of the miniBuck about once per week of hiking - and that is generally to assist someone else.
I use my scissors a half dozen times a day.
I carry light pruning shears when hiking with a wood burning stove.
I also carry a 1.3 oz. Sierra Saw. I once sprained my ankle while hiking solo and while I was able to hike out I considered making a crutch.
I love a utility knive to clean up edges when wood working in the shop.
I still tend to prefer a sharp knife. When backpacking I carry one of two things
1) a small opinel folding knife - when I carry this, I keep it's carbon steel blade nice and sharp - as since it only has one blade, I use it for everything. It's lighter than option number 2 below. However I have to buy another since I stupidly ended up with it in my carryon in reno airport last fall and had to huck it out before going through security.
2) A small Swiss Army knife. - and yes it as scissors, and I agree with you on their usefullnes. I use the scissors, tweezers, toothpick and both blades extensively. In this case I tend to keep the larger blade merely decently sharp . I keep the small blade honed very sharp. I use the small blade pretty much only for fine work (ie. swiss army surgery <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ) and the big blade an scissors a lot more often.
When hunting I tend to take number 1), or a Mora knife, and a wyoming knife, and then I want them very sharp.
I'm a sticker for a "proper edge" and a sharp one at that. The purpose of a tool determines it's edge. I shave with a 5/8ths inch straight razor I strop a couple times a week and hone every two weeks. It's truly 'razor' sharp, which means it's edge is thinner than foil and as fragile as an edge can be. It's great for hair, and that's about it. My pocket knives have a 'double bevel' working edge which holds up to abuse and is very easy to restore with a couple passes over a crock stick. They will 'pop' hair after honing, which is really useless in the real world, but gives them a good start. Once I've ground and sharpened an edge, I can usually depend on it to stay in good shape for years, with a touch up on the hone every couple of months. I detest serrated blades. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> The point (pun <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) of a sharp edge is that it requires the least amount of effort to push through work, reducing the likelihood of slipping and doing yourself real harm. I'm also careful about what I cut and how...keeps the blade intact for months. Don't ask to borrow my knife. You'll get my loaner...which will cut butter or saw through string. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
A butter knife is certainly safer, but won't cut anything either.
Yup, scissors are on the little Swiss Army knife. Use 'em all the time. I find the pliers on my Leatherman Squirt just as useful if not more so....that guy is the most useful pocket tool ever.
Jim, Jim, Jim....you're way out there on this one, buddy <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> I am a Grocery Manager by profession and let me tell ya'...there's a reason meat cutters keep their knives so sharp and it has nothing to do with cutting rump roasts! A sharp knife makes a much cleaner cut that is easier to stitch. I have taken many apprentice meat cutters to the hospital that learned this lesson the hard way <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
BF
p.s.--butter knife...check, drool guard...check, football helmet...check...ready to camp! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
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Hammockers aren't stuck up, they're just above it all.
nothing to do with cutting rump roasts! A sharp knife makes a much cleaner cut that is easier to stitch.
Personally, I find the easy way to avoid stitching in my rump roasts is to not cut anything anywhere near my butt - but ymmv <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Really! Spent a decade of my teenage/young adult life at Safeway (slaveway <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) Nothing worse that a dull box cutter blade when working night crew, cutt'n and markn', and yes, as you say, the meat cutters keep crazy sharp knives. That was in the seventies/eighties. Do you know what a 'Garvey' is/was? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Anyone who needs a speciality knife should have one. I have butcherd meat and I know why you need a sharp knife. Phat needs a wyoming knife to clean game - cool.
BUT THE POINT REMAINS for camping, a razor sharp knife is a liability. A sharp knife being safer IS a fallacy unless you are doing something that a duller knife will not do easily. I used to own a leather shop. Everyone got a safety lecture and was shown that tools which can work oak tanned leather will remove your fingers without even slowing down.
And as far as wounds healing - a jagged knife cut will close and self heal a long time before a razor cut will. The smooth cut simply somehow has less surface area to knit. Midnightsun - comment?
So if you're not a butcher, samari, leather cutter, hunter or sushi chef - why take a really sharp knife camping? Answer - its ego - when I was a Boy Scout we all spent hours honing our knifes to see who had the sharpest one. Often it was me, then I cut myself to the bone - I learned, some of you haven't. Jim
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These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.
Hmmmm....ego, huh....I respectfully yet humbly disagree. There are lots of different kinds of 'edges' you can put on a blade. For camping, or utilitarian use, a 'working' edge is what's needed. The best honed working edge in the world can not be "razor" sharp. The bevel is to obtuse and metal is simply to thick. If it passes the 'thumbnail' or 'hair popping' test, it's plenty sharp. A working edge will cut whats needed and stay sharp, as well as hold up to abuse, similar to an ax. For camping, I like a sharper knife over a duller knife any day, and if I were to cut myself (as I did last week), I'll take a sharp blade over a dull one, no question. My 'super glued' finger is completely healed after one week, cut to the bone by a razor knife blade, my stupidity. My shin, barked by the corner of my utility trailer 3 weeks ago, is still healing....from a 'sharp' piece of angle iron. Would you allow a surgeon to operate with a dull or sharp scalpel? I inspect my straight razors and other knife blades under a 100 power microscope (available at Radio Shack for under $20)....sharpening is kind of a hobby to me. A dull blade has nicks, cracks, burrs, and 'coves' where bacteria will hang out and is uncleanable. A well ground/sharpened/honed blade will have tiny, even serrations instead.
A rusty nail or a house key will 'cut' and is better than no tool at all. If I'm going to bother carrying a knife, it might as well be in the best working condition possible, ground to the task.
If you are of the opinion that a sharp knife is a liability and you can get by with scissors, go the scissors route. In that case a dull knife takes up space and weight and is just as much of a liability. Why bring it along at all? A knife is a tool for cutting. A butter knife is a tool for spreading butter and cutting butter at the dinner table. Diminishing the effectiveness of a tool's intended function makes it a less effective tool. You then have to weigh safety (which is debatable) vs. utility. Carrying a butter knife around maybe safe, but it is useless around the camp unless you want to butter something. Having used knives for cooking, butchering, whittling, and other utility chores I still believe a sharp knife gets the job done more easily and safely. I know that more force is needed behind a dull blade to get it to do its job, this means less control through possible slippage and fatigue and there is more likelihood of causing injury to yourself or others (if you are violating one of the Boy Scout rules by using a knife in proximity of other people).
If you are using a knife in a survival situation to make wood shavings for fire, construct shelter, process food (if you are lucky enough to catch something) a sharp knife will also save your energy in that you don't have to work as hard to get the same job done.
My question is, if a jagged wound heals faster, why do surgeons use scalpels?
There is nothing wrong with bringing scissors instead of a knife if that is all you need to get the cutting jobs done, but I wouldn't bring a dull knife along just for the sake of having a knife. Just my opinion. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Ouch! I still do not agree...but i WILL agree to dissagree <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
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Hammockers aren't stuck up, they're just above it all.
Geen and tan and Bigfoot. I expect to agree to disagree with Bigfoot. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Hes my friend... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> And I'm playing myth buster so I don't expect any classiscists to agree with me.
B&T quote" _____________________________________ If you are of the opinion that a sharp knife is a liability and you can get by with scissors, go the scissors route. <snip> A knife is a tool for cutting. A butter knife is a tool for spreading butter and cutting butter at the dinner table. <snip> Carrying a butter knife around maybe safe, but it is useless around the camp unless you want to butter something. <snip> I know that more force is needed behind a dull blade to get it to do its job, this means less control through possible slippage and fatigue and there is more likelihood of causing injury to yourself or others ______________________________________
In fact you are agreeing completely with my concept. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> A sharp knife is a tool for cutting or butchering <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> - but in my opinion that "need" is not really a part of modern LNT BPing. I'm saying that the only real repeatable need that you have for that knife is eating and spreading butter/jam. [unless you are hunting, a samari, or otherwise require it as part of your mission gear] Whittling is against the Boy Scout code as an unecessary dangerous way to "play" with knifes. I had a Tote and chip card - I know. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> That said - I like chip arrowheads which is even sharper than anybodies knife and very dangerous, but I don't feel its a necessary part of camping. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
<<If you are using a knife in a survival situation to make wood shavings for fire, construct shelter, process food (if you are lucky enough to catch something) a sharp knife will also save your energy in that you don't have to work as hard to get the same job done. >>
I agree with you, only I would want my axe instead of a knife. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> And if I am going to be in a survival situation there are other things I'd like to have too. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
<<My question is, if a jagged wound heals faster, why do surgeons use scalpels? >>
A surgeon is not concerned with the cut healing, he can glue it together, cauterise it, and probably injects you with a blood thickener so you don't bleed as much. A surgeon is concerned with precision cutting which a dull blade will not do. I do not require this precision to cut my potato or a piece of rope. And I do not butcher anmals while camping - normally - this year was different.
<<<There is nothing wrong with bringing scissors instead of a knife if that is all you need to get the cutting jobs done, but I wouldn't bring a dull knife along just for the sake of having a knife. Just my opinion. >>>
Again I have to whole heartedly agree. A pair of scissors will cover about all I ever need to do, so I tend to carry a miniature SOG mini tool with gear powered scissors, one inch long knife blade and tweezers I think. I would never carry a dull knife just to have a knife, but I would cary a utility knife that was too dull to cut my hand severly. Just like I don't need a scalpel or even a box cutter to any camping activity. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
Ok so the last time we needed a knife was last September when we used a dull swiss army pocket knife to cut the legs off a whole duck my girl friend packed in. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Now if your a BPing chef - carry a fine set of knifes. Bottom line - Big sharp knifes, axes, campfires, and guns for camping are VERY RETRO... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> If yer gonna give your kid a knife to play with, er uh I mean learn to be responsible for, are you gonna start with a razor knife cause it'll be easier to sew his fingers back on? Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
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These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.
Jim I know you are trying to be the myth buster, but a myth buster must be challenged or it makes for a boring show. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
As you pointed out I do not entirely disagree with you about bringing scissors instead of a knife.
I don't agree with your comments in reference to Scouting. You wrote " Whittling is against the Boy Scout code as an unecessary dangerous way to "play" with knifes. I had a Tote and chip card - I know."
That may have been a rule for your particular unit, however, I am not finding any reference to whittling being forbidden in the most current Boy Scout Handbook. In fact In Chapter 4 in the Second Class Scout section on page 77 the book says.
"Pocket Knife Ever need to cut a rope? Open a can of food? Whittle a tent stake , slice a biscuit or punch a hole in a belt?"
On page 78 under knife use the book says "Do keep your knife sharp and clean. A sharp blade is easier to control than a dull one.
I am not a medical professional, however, I think surgeons would be concerned with the healing of the incision. On another medical note I have had stitches from broken glass and other non-knife lacerations. The people doing the stitching have commented that clean (not jagged) lacerations were easier to stitch, and less likely to scar. This would translate to better healing I would think.
Grenn and tan Thanks - a myth buster is useless without disagreement... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
In my scouting unit whittling was a violation. And the scout manual says the same thig it did then. BUT - I have NEVER had to puch a hole in a belt. I do not whittle anymore - not since I was a scout. AND I have never had to whittle a tent stake. These are remnants of the scout manual that also emplored you to keep your axe razor sharp so it wouldn't bounce - maybe if you're a lumberjack, but not for splitting wood. Heck I use a ten pound wood bomb thats as dull as they come - splits wood nicely. Just a sharp axe is all thats required, no need to shave with it - see my avatar <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
As far as "slicing a bisquit" what would I need a sharp knife to do that?
ANYWAY all I'm trying to do with this thread is to say - YOU DO NOT NEED A SHARP KNIFE OR EVEN ANY KNIFE TO BP, and perhaps there are safer lighter weight alternatives that provide that same function. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Jim
This in addition to the assertion that you also do not NEED a compass, first aid kit, cell phone, GPS, map, flashlight, or even fire starters. As per John Muir - a warm coat and a loaf of bread is enough. Everything else is just for your comfort level. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
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These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.
Jim You are absolutely right! There is so little that we really need to walk in the woods. I don't think I would even need a butter knife to half a biscuit <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> And by the way, I don't always agree 100 per cent with the BSA Handbook either. A dull knife would be safer for me because I would leave it at home instead of carry it, so I guess the outcome is "plausible." Take it easy, G and T
I went to the internet and read some neat stuff about sharpness and edge durability testing and found a websight where the following quote is from - and this was the general concensus of others on this websight as well. Quote" ___________________________________________
<snip>"Scalpel blades are not as sharp for a reason [As a microtomb - used for slicing tissue perfectly flat and thin for microscopic viewing]. The razor edge [ of a scalpel] cuts cleanly but not as cleanly as a highly polished blade (sharpened with an extra fine stone). This is a good thing if you want to reclose the cut which in most surgical cases is the goal. The roughness helps blood clotting giving it better binding sites and speeds up healing. ________________________________________ they said scalpels are no sharper than razor blades. There was also a statement that a new spyderco is sharper than a scalpel. "The knife you cut yourself with is sharper than the scalpel I am using to fix it" surgeons? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
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These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.
Being a lifelong woodworker, I've worked with many sharp tools. I have no use for dull ones. I'm the same with pocket knives. I have no use for a dull one.
Sharp knives? Interesting... I'm a sometimes-professional wood carver, and my experience is that it's not just a blade's sharpness that makes it safe or unsafe. About 90% of safety comes from blade awareness; use a particular style of knives long enough and you will gain a sense of when body parts are inline with the cutting action, as well as how the material you're cutting will behave with the knife. Sharp knives make for less slippage and need less force. That makes sharp knives safer, but it's not a replacement for good blade handling.
That said, I usually use a tiny swiss army knife when I'm camping, and I agree that a scissors is what gets used the most. I might carry something more substantial if I take up hunting. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
I think Wolfeye hit it. The way you use the knife is way more important than its sharpness. I think this goes with what you have said all along with guns, Jim. Isn't it you who has always been saying that if you don't know how to use a gun, it won't help you to bring it? I think your advice with guns translates to knifes. If you don't know how to use a knife properly, don't even bring it. I agree that 90% or more of your cutting tasks are done BETTER with scissors. That is why I always have a pair (either those paramedic types, or something smaller). But, there are those times when I want a knife, and a sharp one at that. I am not as particular as Dryer when sharpening, but I do keep my blades sharp and can't stand serrated edges (cuz I can't sharpen them). I am also very careful. When I was a new Boy Scout, I saw my friend slice open his finger with my knife. I am as vigilant with a knife as with a firearm. They are just as deadly.
So, my point is, that if you don't know how to handle one, bring scissors. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
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I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.
<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I'm not as particular as I made myself sound. I only micro-inspect a blade the first time I grind and sharpen it, so I know what I'm working with, or if trying to work out chips when restoring a use one. This is especially useful with razors. After that, a blade will only see a hone or steel and I don't much care. If good judgement is used as to what is cut, an edge can hold up for years......especially if you don't loan out the tool. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
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