WD 31 hours into this thread we have 246 hits and 24 responses - so I guess its a subject that OTHER people want to rehash OR to read for the first time. Ours is to distribute good information freely...
<If a rope is going to get you into stuff you have no buisness doing, the hardly adds safety to your trip.>
:)I guess that statement sort of confuses me. But then as you have said we are very different.
Jim
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These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.
People with 4wd vehicles sometimes drive too far on snowy roads that they would have not done without the 4wd. Then they high center and are stuck. The 4wd enables them to get into situations they would not have done without it. Of course, once you really know what you are doing with a 4wd, you realize that it is not going to do you much good if you high center, nor is it going to help you stop on ice.
Same with a rope. It is a too that enables you to do stuff you would not do without it. Fine if you know the limits of the rope and what you are getting into. You and I well know that if we rappel off a cliff we had better have a plan on either how to get back out or know of a route at the bottom that gets us to where we want to go. Another example of a rope making you less safe, is if you use it incorrectly to cross a stream. (there is a correct way to use a rope to cross streams). If you did not have the rope to begin with, you would judge the stram too risky, and retreat. But you and your buddy have this rope and think you are safer and tie into it. Wrong. So instead of retreating you think you have a safety line, and cross, fall in and are pulled under.
We used to have a saying in Wyoming, that only people with 4wd's ever got stuck; everyone else had enough sense to stay home during a big storm.
I dare say that most backpackers do not know how to properly use a rope.
I was not implying that this thread is not worthwhile. I just do remember that this is a "rerun". I personally have trouble digging up old threads, so I see why we repeat stuff. It would be interesting to pull up that old thread and see what was said.
Finally If you see meaningful pics of extreme happenings, they were posed. Modern cameras are too slow and human reaction time too slow, not to mention that when yer up to yer waist in alligators, you tend to forget why you were there in the first place and the camera ain't the first thing ya think of. If you're taking pictures, you ain't that scared.
Heck is that Sasquatch sitting with Jimmy Hoffa and Jackie Onasis over there, wheres my camera? Jim
Jim, I was talking about this.
Originally Posted By Jimshaw
A buddy of mine wants me to help him set up a semipermanent snowcamp up near the snowpark on Friday. I may do some firtree hole camping next week.
That is not an emergency. You have plenty of time to take pics in the process.
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Another example of something that tempts people who have no business doing something into doing it would be the Half Dome cables, the biggest money pit in the national park system - all the dollars that flow into rescues, trying to pre-SAR the hike, trying to choke back the flow of thousands of people trying to wangle and scalp and finagle permits, dollars spent chasing the scalpers, all from taxpayers pockets into perpetuating that giant attractive nuisance pulling all those tourists up the trail, limping and blistering all the way, to ascend a rock face they have no business ascending and ignoring every piece of advice doled out on pamphlets, websites and by people sitting at the table in Happy Isles....
Any piece of gear needs to be used appropriately regardless. It could be argued that there is a dangerous way to set up a tent. Ignorance in the wilderness is in general going to increase your risk to unacceptable levels. Rope can be dangerous, just ask any newbie trying to toss up a bear bag line. (Ow! $%^@#, I'm just sleeping with it....)
It's sort of tempting, roping everyone together when facing a stretch of really exposed slope, but it takes some kind of training or experience to tell the rest of the group what the risks of doing that are if no one in the group knows how to arrest and can do it with three other people dangling from their belt. And despite the strength of paracord (that favorite rope recommended in so many gear lists newbies read) in some conditions, it can and does snap in nothing flat under others - why there is a ton of it dangling in the tops of trees all over Yosemite. All you have to do is look up when you get to a spot that has flat spots clearly used by tenters and fire rings.
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"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki
Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: California (southern)
Paracord is not what we are talking about here. This about real rope that can actually catch and hold a moderate fall. Paracord is a very useful product, but it has no application in climbing situations (well, maybe as shoelace). People have died demonstrating that.
Backpackers who also think that simply by bringing an ice axe or crampons makes it safe to cross steep snow will have a real surprise if they actually fall. The use of both these pieces of equipment are a skill that takes considerable practice to perfect. And even for those who are experts, there is a real limit to stopping yourself. If you do not get it done in the first few minutes it is not going to happen.
Microspikes add to this problem. I am all for microspikes to use on low angle slick snow or ice, but I would not use them on any slope where you have a possibility of a long fall, even a moderate angle slope.
All these gadgets, rope included, can give you a false sense of security. Using this gear with a full pack on your back is also very different than using them on a day climb.
I personally do not carry anything more than parachute cord to lower my pack when needed. I feel no obligation to carry nearly a pound of rope just in case I run across someone who is in trouble. Frankly, on most of my trips off-trail, I may see less than a handfull of people on the entire trip.
Paracord is not what we are talking about here. This about real rope that can actually catch and hold a moderate fall. Paracord is a very useful product, but it has no application in climbing situations (well, maybe as shoelace). People have died demonstrating that.
Which is exactly the point - I've heard people claim that paracord can be more than it is.
It isn't even a good bear bagging rope. I'd be using it to repair gear, lower a pack down something steep, spare guy line, or other non critical applications - never as a climbing rope. That's it's often added to gear lists without explanation of this is part of the problem.
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"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki
Paracord is not what we are talking about here. This about real rope that can actually catch and hold a moderate fall. Paracord is a very useful product, but it has no application in climbing situations (well, maybe as shoelace). People have died demonstrating that.
Interstingly my first emergecy use of that rope was to go up. I had descended into a blind ravine of loose talus and suddenly found myself in very loose rock looking over a 100 foot drop. I sat down very carefully and grabbed the end of a broken bush about 2 inches in diameter as the only solid hold. I pulled the rope out of the outside pocket where it lived and tied one end to the stump and one to me. I then very carefully crawled back up the slope to another stump and retied the rope. Then I had to go back down holding onto the rope, untie it, tie it to me and carefully reascend. Then I repeated the process one more time to safety.
There were several life threatening stages - the first crawl up, what If I had slipped over the edge with a small rope tied to my leather belt? Incidentally, thats one reason why people used to have rivited belts with double "hookers", so they could hold your weight. Yep I have also rappeled on that same leather belt looped through the eyes of my jeans. This was not a good example of danger management and since I didn't slip, I guess I really didn't need the rope, but without it I might have just sat there screaming for help.
If somebody goes through an ice bridge and lives and you want to get them out of a stream, a good piece of rope is gonna help. Jim
Edited by Jimshaw (03/02/1207:31 PM)
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These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.
Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: California (southern)
Good example. While rappelling is a common use, the rope is often employed to help some who is a little shaky over a class three (almost a 4!) stretch. I used "my little it of rope" routinely to belay my daughter climbing up the dock ladders when going out to the Channel Islands. Pop her into a kid's harness; precede her up the ladder; drop the rope and Mom ties her in;Mom also is right behind her while she come up the ladder. This is about a fifteen foot climb usually and falling down into the water while a boat is bumping up against the ladder would be very unfortunate.
I must have a bit of Sam Gamgee's DNA in my makeup.....
Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6800
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
Hadn't thought of that one! My daughter insisted on taking my day pack up those Channel Island ladders, but she didn't really need to. I thought that carrying two packs put her more at risk!
Edited by OregonMouse (03/02/1201:42 PM)
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May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey
Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: California (southern)
When did this happen? Island Packers is very good about handing packs up. (They have a much better and safer setup for boarding than the NPS boats) - At least in the last ten years or so....
Registered: 11/23/03
Posts: 430
Loc: Kitsap Peninsula, WA
All this sounds reasonable to me. The only two avalanches I have been been near didn't quite hit me (in one I hid behind a big rock). I used to carry the thin red "avalanche cord" but haven't seen that for 40 years! Nowadays we simply don't hike/climb below any loaded slopes when the NW avalanche center reports any hazard at all. We have found plenty of places to hike and snow shoe and climb and sky w/o tons of snow lurking above us.
Registered: 08/16/10
Posts: 1590
Loc: San Diego CA
I suppose it is just too much of a draw to just rip the cables out. Either that or just charge a whole lot for the permits so that even in a crazy year, you make more money than you spend on rescues. I don't know...but most of those people don't have any idea what they may or may not be getting into.
I carry some rope on overnight hikes. I use it as a ridge line for my lean-to. If I ever needed it in an emergency I probably wouldn’t be able to get to it fast enough as it is usually buried in my pack.
As a chimney sweep I once tried to throw a long length of rope over a snow covered house. I was unsuccessful but the customer lent me his kayak rescue rope. It was a floating line in a canvas bag. I anchored the end of the rope and threw the bag out over the house with great ease. As the bag went out it took the rope with it, laying it over the roof so I could tie it securely on the other side. It worked so well I had my wife make me a bag system which I have used several times now. The neat thing is, it never tangles as it comes out of the bag. I don’t need floating rope and so it cost a whole lot less than the kayak setup. I have never taken the bag line hiking but it might not be a bad idea. It is an easy way to throw a rope to a person in trouble.
Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: California (southern)
I have bagged all my ropes for the last several years; it works quite well. You can throw the rope more accurately,or, if on rappel, simply hang the rope bag from your harness and pay it out as you descent. I understand that Yosemite SAR (which as far as I know developed this technique) bagged their special El Capitan rope (3000 feet long) in a military duffel bag.
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