JAK - (welcome back, by the way - haven't seen you post for a while!)
Have you ever read The Worst Journey in the World, by Apsley Cherry-Garrard? It's an account of his experiences with the Scott expedition in the Antarctic. He and a couple other guys took a side trip on skis for weeks in winter, sleeping in bags of caribou fur (if I am remembering correctly) that got heavier and stiffer with frozen condensation each night (temps got down to -77F). Every time I am cold in the mild SF bay area, I think about that book.
I've heard of such horror stories, even recent ones. We can get a few days in a row each winter with daytime highs of 10F and nighttime lows of -25F, but only 3-5 days in a row at most. Still wouldn't want to be caught in that unprepared. Imagine a day and night of freezing rain before that. Haven't checked out the statistics on that. At least we have some trees to burn here. Still, good in theory, but practice usually takes some practice.
Remember the scene in Never Cry Wolf where he falls through the ice after getting dropped off. Now that would be terrifying.
I prefer sleeping in the nude, especially since my guy and I zip our bags together, but there have been a couple of trips when it was so cold we kept our base layers on. It all boils down to your own personal comfort. And no, that doesn't make you a freak. Anyone who thinks you a freak for that is the one with the problem.
I do not sleep well in clothes. I have had to wear long johns and a fleece to bed when temp dipped way below my bag rating. I normally prefer just shorts or undies. As for dirt I carry a Kitchen sink. I cut the top off a Gallon milk jug and take a nice sponge bath after supper. This is better than slepping in my dirt! My long Johns wouldnt smell realgood to sleep in after hiking all day! I am a warm sleeper though.
JAK - (welcome back, by the way - haven't seen you post for a while!)
Have you ever read The Worst Journey in the World, by Apsley Cherry-Garrard? It's an account of his experiences with the Scott expedition in the Antarctic. He and a couple other guys took a side trip on skis for weeks in winter, sleeping in bags of caribou fur (if I am remembering correctly) that got heavier and stiffer with frozen condensation each night (temps got down to -77F). Every time I am cold in the mild SF bay area, I think about that book.
That book blew me away. His teeth were chattering so hard that he broke most of them. Just to grab a few penguin eggs. The part where his frostbite blisters freezing was brutal too. I don't do clothes either as my girl just mentioned above.
In summer, I use a lighter bag (or even a bag liner), and I sleep in just my undies. In winter, I wear longjohns and socks, and occasionally a toboggan. I've yet to experiment with bag liner and clothes inside my bag, but from what I've read it won't make much difference. If you compress the insulation too much it won't work right so you'll end up colder.
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"Stand in the ways and see, and ask for the old paths, where the good way is, and walk in it; then you will find rest for your souls."
Registered: 02/26/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Washington State, King County
Quote:
"I've yet to experiment with bag liner and clothes inside my bag, but from what I've read it won't make much difference. If you compress the insulation too much it won't work right so you'll end up colder."
I'm not a big fan of a bag liner for warmth (might make sense to keep the bag clean, but IMO doesn't do that much relative to the weight and hassle factor for warmth).
But I do like to augment my sleeping bag rating with insulated clothing that I'm carrying (and wearing) anyway. Just under a year ago I was using a down parka inside my 20F rated sleeping bag to sleep comfortably down into the teens --- I'm completely certain that it made a big difference, given that my sleeping bag was sufficiently large that it didn't constrain the insulation of the parka.
I'm do think that if the only criteria is to have a warmer sleeping bag for X weight, then it's more efficient to put all of that weight into the sleeping bag insulation. But given that we often want some relatively warm clothing too, it only makes sense to me to factor that in when selecting the sleeping bag.
I'm do think that if the only criteria is to have a warmer sleeping bag for X weight, then it's more efficient to put all of that weight into the sleeping bag insulation. But given that we often want some relatively warm clothing too, it only makes sense to me to factor that in when selecting the sleeping bag.
I normally do just as you are doing, and augment the bag with warm clothing. it often means I'm carrying a lighter bag..
But I have thought long and hard about this - my *clothing* is proabably heavier than a warmer bag. - so just suppose for a minute that instead of carrying two merinos and a fleece, in addition to my walking around clothing, I only carried one merino, my long johns, and resolved to dive into my (warmer) bag when I got cold..
I know the difference between my -3C and my -15C rated bag for weight is a lot less than the weight of that clothing.. which I don't wear when I am moving around... If I'm content to hike all day and just dive into the bag at night - food for thought..
Registered: 02/26/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Washington State, King County
Quote:
"so just suppose for a minute that instead of carrying two merinos and a fleece, in addition to my walking around clothing, I only carried one merino, my long johns, and resolved to dive into my (warmer) bag when I got cold.."
I think we're seeing this exactly the same, just articulating it slightly differently. My point here is that the one merino and one set of long johns you are going to be wearing can be factored in when deciding how warm a bag you need on that trip. For a person that is relatively more willing to "hop into the bag" when cold, the "worn" warmth layers can indeed be reduced. OTOH, for a person who prefers, or for a situation that demands relatively more warm clothing, then the weight hit from that can at least be somewhat offset by a lighter bag.
That, of course, assumes sufficient granularity of choices between various sleeping bag options at home --- something that more normal (sane) people likely have less of! :-)
[quote] That, of course, assumes sufficient granularity of choices between various sleeping bag options at home --- something that more normal (sane) people likely have less of! :-)
- Normal people don't sit around on the internet buying gear all day...
- Oh really?.. ready normal people...
The internet is for gear.. The internet is for gear...
My factor isn't so much where I use my insulation as much as it is where I use my money and how many items I have. I own three sleeping bags. One was purchased for "camping out" in my parents' living room when I go to visit. It is a heavy, rectangular bag that may or may not keep me warm down to +25 or so. I will probably never take it out, unless it's an overnight car camp. The second bag is a North Face down-filled which I got from a friend. I haven't cleaned it or tried it out yet, but it is a long, and I am short, so I am not overly hopeful.
The third bag is a Coleman +20 (which means +30-35, right?), which I got on clearance for $5. With synthetic longjohns, in a hammock but no tarp, I got it down to +15 with only cold toes. I think that, were I to add a layer of insulation below the bag (between bag and hammock), my tarp, a pair of socks, and a toboggan, I could get it down to +10 or perhaps even +5. Crazy, I know, but I can't deny what the thermometer said that morning. I've had it out in +25-30 temps with no problems, either.
The thing is, even though I know that there are some really great down bags out there, I cannot justify plunking down the Benjamins for one, when I have one that will do what I want. Also my usual haunts are rarely that cold. In summer it *might* get down to 85 at night, which means I won't even be taking a bag. Just a light blanket and a sheet. If I think I need to get it down colder, I can either take an additional layer of clothing, or maybe a bag liner (which serves the dual purpose of being a warm-weather bag -- a win-win for me).
From what I've read, bag liners are more hassle than help. So I may buy one for a warm-weather bag, and experiment with it in my back yard come winter.
Just my two cents. That an a couple dollars will buy you a mocha latte.
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"Stand in the ways and see, and ask for the old paths, where the good way is, and walk in it; then you will find rest for your souls."
Having survived a night at -40 in the open at altitude in a light sleeping bag and snowmobile suit, I now have the attitude of carrying MORE vs less sleeping bag. I HATE to be cold in my sleeping bag. So anyway this is what I do, YMMV: WM Super Kodiak
Getting into my bag is a process. First I may need to get in with everything I have on and wait to warm up. I basically prefer to sleep completely unencumbered at home (Read nude), but in a tent I do wear a light pair of insulated long underwear and a fleece jacket and sleeping gloves and balaclava. thats all
I then get out and pull off my down bibs and tuck them under my head, then I have to get the underpants off and the longunderwear back on which generally means another dive into the bag to warm up. Then its time to remove the big coat and strip down to a thin warm layer on top and then the final dive into the bag. no socks... A quality sleeping bag should keep your legs and feet toasty warm without socks. In fact if your feet are cold in the footsak of a mummy bag it means the blood getting to your feet is cold: Insulate your legs more, but put your big down jacket over your sleeping bag in extreme cold to insulate your torso. For that matter a cord tied lightly around your sleeping bag say just above your knees, will make your bag warmer by dividing it up into compartments that closes off drafts inside your sleeping bag. been there, done that... The only requirement for my system to work is a pee bottle. If I had to get out of the tent in the night I would wear the down bibs to bed, then reach for my big coat, put it on, dive into the bag and when I was warm I would get out and put my boots on and leave the tent.
I'm not certain that thick leg insulation as in pants or bibs, actually makes you warm because your legs can't warm each other up. I'd rather pull the down bibs into the bag to take up air space and add insulation, say behind my back, especially in extreme winds. Jim
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These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.
I wonder if you can get a down filled skirt with a long, fold down cuff, down filled lower with a zipper that will go around the feet to make a sleeping bag, and a zip off mini dress for those fun times in camp... it looks more useful to me than a tartan. and reasonabley priced too... Jim
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These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.
_________________________
"Stand in the ways and see, and ask for the old paths, where the good way is, and walk in it; then you will find rest for your souls."
Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6800
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
Back to the question of clothes in the sleeping bag: Just a note that the EU's EN13537 ratings assume the sleeper (a test dummy) is wearing a base layer and a knit hat inside the bag. For 10-20* F bags, they also assume a sleeping pad with an R value of 5 (warmer than most 3-season pads). Of course most of us are not "average," and hopefully none of us are dummies!
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May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey
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