Babybunny

Its the fleece under the down jacket that makes you "WARM", not the down in the outer shell.

It is my own humble opinion that high number down should not be used in down jackets <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> - 650 makes for a warmer garment because the down does not compress so much. I think your experience should show others that UL down jackets are garbage and will not keep you warm. In my humble opinion any GOOD down garment should have areas insulated with thinsulite or some other synthetic - like shoulders and where your straps go around you wearing a pack.

The message here is - UL down jackets alone will not keep you warm, <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />AND 800 down jackets do not have down which is strong enough to hold the shape of a garment without flapping and loosing warm air from inside it. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />Its exactly the same for down bags - 800 down and gossamer fabrics = flapping and warm air being lost. Its a case of weight over function being driven by UL nuts. Yes you guys... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I would not personally rely on a single 800 down coat weighing under 2 pounds to keep me warm when its below freezing. And frankly they don't weigh that much do they. These jackets have less down in them than the draft tube in my winter bag and people have the idea that they will be warm. WHY? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

You want to be warm and buy a garment that will last 2 decades? _ get a TNF cheapo down jacket - or Cabelas or someone who still will sell you a coat made of lower number down and use more of it because they know you are buying a coat to keep you warm, not a coat that weighs less than the other guys. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />