good point phat, I've seen by normally environmentally conscious people not worry about max # in a group since we know what we are doing. Burning beer cans and garbage in coastal campsites so they don't have to pack it out. Sad, here I'm a little bit redneck and I would not do that stuff, can't do anything about the group size since I was invited and not organizing the trip, I can pack it in and pack it out though which I do and police my site, usually for something to do.