Hi Carter
Thanks for the test report. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I noticed a blue ground cloth poking out from under one tent. Do you normally use a ground cloth? Have you tested these tents without a ground cloth? It just seems to me to add extra weight and have little effect. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Years ago my buddy and I did some experimenting with ground cloths in the Winter. I have always felt that they are a negative. I always got wetter with them than without. So I always used a 2 ounce piece of super thin plastic under everything in my tent and I was dryer - no condensation from the floor on my gear. One trip my buddy decided to put his thin plastic under his tent on purpose just to check things out and his bag was so wet in the morning that we would have gone home only it was a sunny day and the bag dried hanging in the wind and sun. That night he moved the vapor barrier inside and enjoyed a dry night. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I never use and ground or vapor barrier anymore and I don't seem to get any condensation in my old Toddtex Bibler Eldorado. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The vestibule is not integral to the Eldorado, and I only use it when camped with a buddy so we have room to put our packs. Camped alone I slightly unzip the bottom of the door, which is heavily covered and protected by a flap, to allow a low air intake spot, and I leave the two zippered roof vents open all the time unless the wind is driving snow into one, then I only use the downwind vent. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

The Eldorado is always bone dry except sometimes there is frost on the aluminum poles which are inside. One quick wipe with my towel and its gone. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> If I am camped with a buddy and the vestibule is on, we open the top of the door a bit to get some airflow in from the protected vestibule. We rarely get any snow blown in. Vestibules protect the door and are often a real help in keeping a good airflow, especially if the top of the vestibule door will unzip and lay over creating a 1-3 inch high, foot wide vent into the vestibule, and the same arrangement in the inner tent door. This way any snow blowing into the vestibule will stop there whereas the air will come through.

Often when I camp alone in the winter, I'll take my Bibler hanging stove and light it up hanging from the crossed poles at the apex of the tent. I then melt snow and make breakfast INSIDE the tent. When I do this I open the top of the door also so there is a crack for air high and low on the door and the roof vents. The pot will be steaming, the burner on high, pumping over 10,000 BTU of heat into the tent. I then sit in my long underwear in the warm tent and "dry out". <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The point is - I do not get condensation in the winter even while melting snow inside the tent because there is enough heat to drive the moisture right out. AND I always feel confident that I can press the bag against the side of the tent and it will not pick up ANY moisture from the contact. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think a lot of the "breathable" single walled tents perform about as well as the old canvas tents in a rain - OK if they are large enough that you don't touch the side or it may drip. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Forgive me for repeating myself but I have a TNF MTN 24 tent - excellent round doors on each end with independent zips for mesh and nylon doors, nice integral vestibule. Besides my Eldorado, this is the best driest 4 season tent I've ever used. It is always dry, vents extremely well, and is quiet in a wind and strong under snow drifts. I loaned it to two buddies once, I camped next to them in the Eldorado and in the morning they were both drenched along with all of their gear. What the difference was had to operator Error. TomD and I used the same tent for two nights in a storm in Yosemite and it was completely dry. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />