If we ever start living sustainably, as we should, it's actually going to get even more complicated to decide how to go about it, not less. Where do we encroach? How do we encroach? What is natural? What is traditional? What is most desirable? What are all the principles that apply? How do we decide which principles over-ride others in any given situation? Who wins? Who loses?
We all more or less agree to separate Church and State and Nature? The real question is how?
Registered: 04/23/08
Posts: 260
Loc: jersey city NJ
If I had to deal with brown bears on a continuing basis around my home, I'd upgrade my shotgun collection... And the Winner Is?????.....Me for sure....Always, I'd hope.
That's one kind of "sustainability" that I can relate to. There are also others that I like.
Almost certainly, my personal solution would be the same for black bears....
Of course, I'm just talking tough here. Not lusting to kill or anything like that...
And these two species are VERY different in their agressiveness and orneriness, NOT LEAST regarding backpacking considerations.
Ought somebody live in brown bear habitat? Well, I certainly don't know, but maybe this in itself isn't totally responsible. I'm certainly not going to condem a quarter million-plus residents of Anchorage on this account.
(MUCH stricter local zoning laws in Anchorage are needed --despite the remarkable strength of right-wing "property rights" advocates in that state.)
I happen to live in a large metro area, NOT particularly by choice. By mere happy coincidence, this doesn't contribute to sprawl and I don't much use a car and am not directly affected by gasoline prices. I'm certainly not battling bears.
I fully expect that for reasons I don't really control, I'll never live in bear habitiat. As a visitor, the question is in theory, if not otherwise, different.
After reading this post and having no interaction with bears, I'm definatly rigging a tarp several hundred feet from my sleeping set up. I usually don't carry food that is too pungent an odor,except maybe some jerky sealed in it's package. (i may rethink that) But I will increase my overall weight with my 45cal. next trip. BTW when I was camping last trip, I heard hunters blasting away at deer and that night I was awaken by what sounded like a pack of dogs chasing and killing something probably about 200 to 300 yards away. Something got chased down, killed and eaten. Couldn't tell from the yapping what kinda dogs they were.
I think the thread has kind of mutated from the OP's intention, and that of my reply, which is to encourage people to think about it and be responsible in how they choose to camp in bear country. without having to be paranoid about it (i.e. sealing themselves in an aloksack and/or eating in a boy-in-a-bubble setup, bringing along an anti-bear MPLS system, etc.)
The basics are real simple, keep sleeping area away from cooking and eating, and away from food storage, stow your foor properly, and make some noise while you hike. and really, that should be all you need do.
The reason I say it's more for the bear's safety than mine, is the most likely outcome of an encounter in camp if I don't follow the rules, will be a bear gets my food bag. Once the bear starts taking a hiker's food bag, it becomes conditioned, and means it's gonna get shot. The next most likely long term outcome, is I end up having to hike with a freaking can on my pack when they bring in bear canister requirements because they give up and decide hikers are too busy worrying about what ammunition to carry to john wayne down a charging grizzly in an appropriately manly fashion rather than ensuring they do the right thing to just avoid a problem in the first place.
I live and hike with grizzlies as well as black bears, and frankly, as I mentioned we have a lot more tourists than bears. Unlike California, we still *have* our grizzlies, and I'd really not like to see them dissappear from our mountains. I'd certainly not like to see *any* bear get shot due to my hiking activity.
And please don't call me anti-gun, or a tree hugger more worried about the bear than myself. I've shot my way into A class IPSC competitions and have placed as high as 3rd in the province here. I've probably run more high powered handgun rounds downrange than I bet most of the people on this board have, and there's a lot of places here where if I thought a handgun was appropriate, I'd carry it, legal or not (it is not legal to do so in canada, so of course I haven't) I know what it takes with a firearm, and I know what it takes with bear spray. I carry spray - It's lighter, and on the whole when you consider the accuracy requirements for it to be effective at all, it's a heck of a lot more effective.
Notwithstanding that, the chances of you ever haviing to *use* the spray are very low. I never have. ESPECIALLY if you are doing the right thing, like the original topic, when in the boonies. (as Earthling's .sig says - Pepper spray ain't brains in a can) Bear safety is not all about preparing for the ultimate man versus beast showdown. It is about a little ounce of prevention to keep everyone (including the bear!) safe in the usual encounter scenarios. I have had MANY bear encounters. never anything problematic.
Now yes, very occasionaly predatory bear attacks occur. They are extremely rare. Yes, perhaps on the off chance I was every targeted by one I might wish I had my M-14 with a 20 round stick of 220grain nosler partitions instead of my bear spray. In complete honesty, the chances of that every happening rank somewhere below me being propositioned to share a hot evening of naked fun in a 3 man tent with two twenty something hiker chicks while on the trail. So, frankly, before I even think about the weight of a gun, at least I'd have a comb for my back hair in my pack (I don't) I'd also just stop going hiking at all because there would be such a giant chance of me dying:
1) on the road to work thinking about hiking 2) on the road to the trail 3) From eating a gas station bathroom egg salad sandwitch at a stop on the way to the trail. ... 5000) from me breaking a leg on the trail and dying of exposure .... 5,000,000) from a rock pinning my arm in a crack and my knife being too dull for me to cut my arm off and walk out because I left my knife at home and borrowed one from Jim Shaw. .... 18,789.293,090) From the above mentioned proposition happening on the trail and my having a spontaneous heart attack from the shock of it. 18,789.293,091) from my wife finding out about the hiker chix above and the resultant amateur surgery to my nether regions with a butter knife becoming septic, etc. etc.. ... 18,789,293,091 + N) Oh gosh I might get eaten by a grizzly that is determined to eat me in spite of proper bear safety and my bear spray won't chase him off. Better pack my 11.5 pounds of gun....
This does not mean you don't take sensible precautions to prevent the otherwise likely encounters (food related) or less likely encounters (surprising a mom with cubs, or a bear on a kill). But focusing on a gun, or freaking out over the chance of the most unlikely type of encounter happening (a predatory type attack) is simply not productive.
Sorry, I'm in a ranting mood this morning. Had to cancel a planned trip ;(
5,000,000) from a rock pinning my arm in a crack and my knife being too dull for me to cut my arm off and walk out because I left my knife at home and borrowed one from Jim Shaw.
LOL! That comment made me laugh out load at work : ) Ive read that thread about knifes that are too sharp can be more dangerous then not.
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My gear is no where near lightweight
I am very encouraged that the hiker chix proposition is more likely than the predatory bear. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
Member of the testosterone clan should be glad that the estrogen clan are not as shallow as us. I think I am more likely to be struck by lightening than to see an attractive man.
Oops... Forgot.
Well said. ROTFLMAO
Edited by food (07/10/0809:54 AM)
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"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not." Yogi Berra
Phat, no need to apologize - that was one mighty fine rant (except that it was too full of intelligence to be just a rant). My favorite lines, and ones that should be burned into everyone's brain, were:
Quote:
Bear safety is not all about preparing for the ultimate man versus beast showdown. It is about a little ounce of prevention to keep everyone (including the bear!) safe in the usual encounter scenarios.
And thanks for the many laughs in your post too! Loved the listing of relative odds. But sorry about your trip cancellation.
For the noise part, I talk to bears all the time. A little silly, but do you talk to bears too? I say stuff like "hello bears, I am on the trail, I mean no harm, take your babies and move off to the same side, I have babies too, grandchlidern too, what is your baby's name?
Wow, if someone were to meet me they would think I was really crazy!
Yeah, I talk to them too - if I'm just walking along with one in view I'll have an entire one sided conversation with them about the pass we're in, what the names of the mountains are, etc. and stop to let them go by, or walk on past if they have their own space and are leaving me in mine. I have my little schtick I always do thanks to my own toilet habits - like the old joke I've always asked every bear I've met since I was about 16 if his poop sticks to the fur on his butt too - I haven't had an answer yet.
I don't think it's silly at all. without sounding like a flaky new age freak, I'm pretty convinced that talking normally like that puts you in your normal "socializing" type mood, and that your tone and manner are definately sensed by an animal like a bear - it lets them know you are aware of them, and you're not afraid but you're paying attention - just a good thing.
Although in grizzly country, when one is not in view, and I'm in trees (as opposed to the alpine) I tend to give little loud "yip yip" every few minutes - just so the bears know I'm coming down the trail, and aren't surprised when I come over a knoll.
Registered: 04/23/08
Posts: 260
Loc: jersey city NJ
Yeah but you're in Alberta. Most N.Amer backpackers never get within 500 miles of a grizzley. The story in the lower 48 is much different. You were just on Vancouver Island and were fully aware of the abscence of brown bears.
Also, circumstances regarding both brown and black bears obviously vary, depending on the rare population nodes, or local infestations.
Mainly within their respective ranges, neither bear is commonly encountered. But there are certainly exceptions.
It's important not to lump the two species together. I'm not saying just go and pet the rabid racoons, but I'd definitely yell and scream (with caution) at a black bear, and be much more circumspect around browns. As we know, they are not the same.
I end up having to hike with a freaking can on my pack when they bring in bear canister requirements because they give up and decide hikers are too busy worrying about what ammunition to carry to john wayne down a charging grizzly in an appropriately manly fashion rather than ensuring they do the right thing to just avoid a problem in the first place.
I liked that part of your rant the best. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
An "encounter" requires that both parties see each other. I venture to guess that most backpackers DO pass by bears but simply are unaware. Just about every trip I go on I see one if not more black bears. But I REALLY look for them. If I want to see one, I just am very quiet; if I do not want to see them I make lots of noise and then still have a good chance of seeing them! That goes for other wildlife too. If you are jabbering to others and have your eyes on the trail, you will miss most of the wildlife.
What I am trying to work on right now, is to be fast enough to get a photo of the bears I see. For some reason, when I see a bear grabbing my camera is the last thing on my mind. By the time I do, it is too late. All my "wildlife" photos I have are horrible - little dots in the distance! I guess you have to really make an effort to get good wildlife photos.
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