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#86346 - 01/07/08 04:14 PM All Gore's creations
TomTrout Offline
member

Registered: 08/23/06
Posts: 18
Referring not to Al Gore, but to Gore-Tex.

Can someone simply explain the differences between Gore-Tex, Gore-Tex XCR, Gore-Tex PacLite, Gore-Tex Performance, and Gore-Tex Pro?

Also, how do these products compare to eVent?

I think Gore-Tex has been improved and its base product is now "Gore-Tex Performance".

I think Gore-Tex PacLite is Gore-Tex's lightest offering. Not sure how it compares to others in breathability and water repellancy. . .

I think Gore-Tex XCR was Gore-Tex's highest tech offering, and it has now been upgraded with Gore-Tex Pro. Not sure if it is just a name change or if the technology is better.

I suspect there is little real world difference encountered among all these if you took the same jacket using all these different materials, but I am just curious. . .

And how does Gore's Windbloc fit into all this? Would it be another layer added to one of the aforementioned membranes? Has it been supplanted?

Color me confused. . .

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#86347 - 01/07/08 06:07 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: TomTrout]
EdK Offline
member

Registered: 01/08/02
Posts: 120
Tom...I have some original Gore-Tex stuff from about 10 years ago, an LL Bean Mountain 3 ply jacket. I also have a couple of Marmot's with their take of a Gore-Tex membrane. Recently, I purchased a Gore-Tex Pac Lite jacket, and to be honest with you, the "breathability" of all of these items is questionable at best. The most all-around comfortable, is the oldest....the 3-ply LL Bean Mountain jacket. Ed

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#86348 - 01/07/08 07:47 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: TomTrout]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
Ahhhh, Gore-tex...

We owe a lot to the Gore people for creating the first w/b membrane that has made it possible for us to be slightly more comfortable and safe in the backcountry. As with all technologies however, especially as long as Gore has been on the market, there is bound to be another company come along that figures out how to do it better.

First, the story about Gore-tex (short and sweet version). Gore-tex started out with their First Generation which was the most breathable of all the current Gore-tex membranes. However, it wasn't able to combat oils, dirt, and other contaminates which would cause it to leak (yes, Gore-tex can leak). The reason why it is possible for it to leak is that most of the membrane is space, 80% to be exact. It is true that by taking a square inch of Gore membrane you get 9 billion pores that are smaller than a water droplet, but larger than a water vapor. However, the size of the pores aren't what keep the water out or results in a material that's durably waterproof (waterproof that can withstand pressure). This is accomplished by it's surface energy. Without this surface energy (weak bonds of the water molecules), water would find a way to seep through the pores no matter how small and no matter what state they were in. Again oils, dirt, and other contaminates broke down this surface energy.

Gore-tex then upgraded the membrane to the second-generation. This was the same as the first (ePTFE or expanded Teflon), but with an added layer, PU (polyurethane). This PU layer combated the contamination breakdown allowing the membrane to maintain it's surface energy no matter how dirty the membrane got. Thus it solved the "leak" problem. However, it created another. PU is a hydrophilic (water-loving), monolithic (solid) membrane. In order for the water to pass, it has to 'diffuse' (going from a lesser concentration to a greater) through the solid PU membrane which can easily become overwhelmed. At this time, Gore-tex still remained the most 'breathable' when compared to other membranes and coatings because the PU membrane was so thin. Gore was able to attach a very thin PU membrane to the ultra-smooth ePTFE membrane unlike other PU membranes like Marmot's Precip or The Mountain Hardware's Conduit which had to be much thicker due to the lumpiness of the nylon or polyester in which it covered and had to adhere to. So even though PU was the culprit for creating less breathability for the 2nd gen Gore, it was still more breathable than any other PU membrane available (at that time there was only one ePTFE/PU membrane, Gore-tex; all the others were PU). Second Generation Gore-tex includes Goretex Classic, XCR, Paclite, Windstopper, and the new ProShell (these all include a thin PU membrane). It's true that XCR and Paclite is slightly more breathable than Classic, but not by much. ProShell is identical to XCR except for the tricot protective 3rd layer. Instead of using tricot, ProShell uses a durable protein layer that protects the vulnerable Gore-tex membrane from abrasion but allows it to be lighter and more packable. Packlite, again identical to XCR, does this as well, but isn't as durable as ProShell. It's all pretty confusing. The thing to remember is that XCR, Paclite, Windstopper, and ProShell all have the same breathability.

eVent (created by BHA Technologies in Kansas City, MO, a division of GE Corp), on the other hand, is the only other ePTFE available and the only one that doesn't use PU. What makes it unique is that it uses a patented super-critical gas treatment to encapsulate the ePTFE membrane with a polymer that is hydropholic (water-hating) and oleophobic (oil-hating). This polymer does the same thing that the PU membrane does for Gore-tex (that is maintain the surface energy), except for the fact that it doesn't inhibit it's breathability. Thus eVent is 30% (high humidity levels) to 200% (low humidity levels) more breathable than Gore-tex! This goes beyond it being significant; it is a staggering difference. One other thing to keep in mind with Gore-tex when comparing it to eVent is that Gore-tex works best at high humidity levels. What this means is that in order for Gore-tex to work optimally, there needs to be 100% humidity inside the jacket. This obviously is not good because that means you're, at the very least, clammy (we've all experienced this with a Gore hardshell) and at the worst, wet! Remember the PU is hydrophilic (water-loving). The PU absorbs the humidity and transfers it to the outside. Gore-tex believes this is good because it works best when you sweat (it really isn't that good). However at low-humidity levels, Gore-tex is almost worthless because it can't transfer moisture due to the solid PU membrane. eVent, on the other hand, works best at low-humidity levels (when you need it most) because it allows the early water vapor to escape, not allowing the jacket to get to the high-humidity levels that Gore works 'well' in. Thus you don't fell clammy. It's interesting to note that even though Gore's best results are at high humidity, eVent still out-performs it by 30% at these levels (this is according to non-biased Army lab tests)!

As you can probably guess, I'm not the biggest fan of Gore, although I own several pieces. Gore did a great job in selling me into it. Now that eVent is available, and since I've been using it, I've noticed a HUGE difference beyond lab results and marketing. The stuff is incredible and has given me the desire to wear my hard shells again. eVent is really the future of w/b material and if you are planning on spending your hard-earned cash on a $400+ shell, you would be nuts to buy Gore. I learned this through several training sessions and my own research after picking up the new outerwear line Westcomb (the best eVent stuff available) who uses eVent exclusively. It has been an eye-opener to say the least.

Gore-tex is still the king of the hill and has a huge marketing budget. Because of this, and other financial reasons, you most likely won't see companies like Mountain Hardware, Arc Teryx, Patagonia, Marmot, The North Face, etc. using eVent. In fact, Gore-tex has told these guys that they will no longer be allowed to use their membrane if they use any eVent. Nike, who doesn't need the marketing dollars, has dropped Gore completely. You might see others following suit once the word gets out. As of today, Westcomb is the only high-end manufacturer, made in North American company who uses eVent. We are also the only direct competitor to Arc Teryx based on quality and similar specs. It is really nice stuff and the fit is amazing!
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#86349 - 01/07/08 08:28 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: jasonlivy]
Ben2World Offline
member

Registered: 10/26/04
Posts: 1754
Loc: So Cal
Quote:
The thing to remember is that XCR, Paclite, Windstopper, and ProShell all have the same breathability.

eVent (created by BHA Technologies in Kansas City, MO, a division of GE Corp), on the other hand, is the only other ePTFE available and the only one that doesn't use PU.


Jason -- Great writeup! The first part is consistent with my understanding that despite all the different names and successively louder hype -- the Goretex laminate is basically little changed over the years.

As for ePTFE that doesn't use PU, MontBell's Breeze Dry Tec laminate shares that characteristic with eVENT -- although the two are not identical.

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#86350 - 01/07/08 08:44 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: Ben2World]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
As for ePTFE that doesn't use PU, MontBell's Breeze Dry Tec laminate shares that characteristic with eVENT -- although the two are not identical.
I haven't heard much about Montbell's Breeze Dry. Is it an ePTFE membrane? I checked out Mont Bell's website but couldn't see what it was made of. It looks like it is a microporous membrane with similar characteristics as eVent as you mentioned, but little more is said about it. Do you have any more info on it? Have you used it? Thanks in advance. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
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#86351 - 01/07/08 09:37 PM MontBell's Waterproof But Air Permeable Laminate [Re: jasonlivy]
Ben2World Offline
member

Registered: 10/26/04
Posts: 1754
Loc: So Cal
Hi Jason:

You may already have read this blip, but just in case not, click here for MontBell's description. And yes, it is an ePTFE membrane as well. I got that in separate email exchanges with MontBell.

I've been using MontBell's Peak Shell jacket for almost three years now, and have been very happy with it. Back when I was shopping for my wp/b jacket, I wanted both high breathability and venting options -- and that basically narrowed down to two: eVENT vs. MontBell.

I believe that eVENT is the more breathable of the two, although the difference is probably very slight, given that both laminates are air permeable. Unfortunately, the eVENT jackets at that time had no venting options aside from the front zip itself. The Peak Shell jacket, on the other hand, came fully featured with extra long pit zips, hand pockets, adjustable hood, etc. and weighed just 11 ounces.

I've worn the Peak Shell snowshoeing uphill for two hours in the high 30's -- and all throughout, I was complety dry and comfortable -- and never needed to unzip even the front zip at all, never mind the pit zips. Afterwards, I took off the jacket and checked my baselayer just to be sure -- and yup, it really was totally dry, as was the inside of the jacket itself. Still, I like the fact that the jacket comes with different zips for venting -- for use in warmer or more humid occasions.

Separately, I once read a post from a hiker who owned both ID eVENT and MontBell Peak Shell. He wrote that all zipped up, the ID was more breathable, but with pit zips, the MontBell was the more comfy and versatile of the two.

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#86352 - 01/08/08 12:20 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: jasonlivy]
Woubeir Offline
member

Registered: 03/24/06
Posts: 22
Quote:

Second Generation Gore-tex includes Goretex Classic, XCR, Paclite, Windstopper, and the new ProShell (these all include a thin PU membrane).

At least for Windstopper, Im not sure this is the case. Put a windstopper laminate under a bubbler tester, and you will see that air bubbles right through it, at a comparable level as eVENT. And even Gore admits on its own Windstoppr site that it passes some air.

Quote:

I ProShell is identical to XCR except for the tricot protective 3rd layer. Instead of using tricot, ProShell uses a durable protein layer that protects the vulnerable Gore-tex membrane from abrasion but allows it to be lighter and more packable. Packlite, again identical to XCR, does this as well, but isn't as durable as ProShell.

I don't think Pro Shell uses a protein. Instead of a tricot knit lining, generaly made from 40 denier yarns, it uses a woven liner made from 15 denier yarns. It makes the lining lighter and more durable. Paclite does away with a lining by adding carbon to the PU-layer. Nice in theory bu it's very condensation prone. The membrane in itself appears to be same although the PU-layer appears to be thinner from the appearance from XCR. Possibly, and surprisingly, there's a good possibilty that the pores from the Gore membranes are also covered with a hydrophobic and oleophobic coating just like eVENT. Why they would use both this coating and the PU-layer is unclear to me.

Quote:

The thing to remember is that XCR, Paclite, Windstopper, and ProShell all have the same breathability.

Not exactly. As explained windstopper is slightly air permeable and should perform like eVENT. But what can make a big difference is the combination of the membrane with face fabrics and scrims. These have an influence on breathability too.

Quote:

eVent, on the other hand, works best at low-humidity levels (when you need it most) because it allows the early water vapor to escape, not allowing the jacket to get to the high-humidity levels that Gore works 'well' in.

More exactly, since eVENT functions independently of the humidity gradient, it works equally well at low and high humidity levels.

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#86353 - 01/08/08 01:16 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: jasonlivy]
Aviprk Offline
member

Registered: 10/26/05
Posts: 82
Quote:
As of today, Westcomb is the only high-end manufacturer, made in North American company who uses eVent. We are also the only direct competitor to Arc Teryx based on quality and similar specs. It is really nice stuff and the fit is amazing!


Right there, you give the impression that you work for Westcomb, by saying "we." How about Integral Designs?

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#86354 - 01/08/08 01:17 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: Aviprk]
Aviprk Offline
member

Registered: 10/26/05
Posts: 82
Quote:
Quote:
As of today, Westcomb is the only high-end manufacturer, made in North American company who uses eVent. We are also the only direct competitor to Arc Teryx based on quality and similar specs. It is really nice stuff and the fit is amazing!


Right there, you give the impression that you work for Westcomb, by saying "we." How about Integral Designs? Did you omit it because they only make rain jackets?

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#86355 - 01/08/08 02:08 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: Aviprk]
Ben2World Offline
member

Registered: 10/26/04
Posts: 1754
Loc: So Cal
Aviprk:

I am not Jason, but having read his posts, Jason is very honest and upfront about whom he works for -- and just as importantly, he is pretty careful to distinguish between speaking as a company rep versus a regular gear freak (like the rest of us).

If you click on Jason's handle, you will see the following under his occupation:

"Traveling Outdoor Industry Sales Rep (Cascade Designs, Princeton Tec, Granite Gear, ACR, ProBar, Westcomb Outerwear)"

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#86356 - 01/08/08 02:28 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: Woubeir]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
I don't think Pro Shell uses a protein. Instead of a tricot knit lining, generaly made from 40 denier yarns, it uses a woven liner made from 15 denier yarns. It makes the lining lighter and more durable.
Your right in regards to the woven, rather than knit, 3rd liner of the ProShell. Thanks for the clarification. This liner does seem to be an advantage over the current tricot that's being used currently. However, the Gore membrane is the exact same as the XCR which means the breathability, when comparing just the membrane, is the same. This info I obtained from Alan DIxon of backpackinglight.com. Alan is considered one of the most respected authorities on w/b performance fabric in the outdoor industry and is not affiliated with any company.
Quote:
At least for Windstopper, Im not sure this is the case. Put a windstopper laminate under a bubbler tester, and you will see that air bubbles right through it, at a comparable level as eVENT. And even Gore admits on its own Windstoppr site that it passes some air.
To be totally honest, I guessed on Windstopper hoping that someone would clarify it for me, so thanks <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. I assumed that all of the membranes Gore makes use a PU layer to which I acknowledge my mistake. I tried to do some research on Windstopper and couldn't find anything specifically on how it works. I did surmise that it probably doesn't include the PU membrane, but instead is meant not to be durably waterproof like the other Gore membranes, but maintain it's windproofness even if it is contaminated. Gore's website did say that it uses a hydrophobic 'coating' to keep external moisture from seeping through. However, once this membrane become contaminated with dirt and oil it will leak, thus it is considered only a water resistant and windproof membrane. You are right in saying that Windstopper most likely has the same breathability as the 1st generation Gore or similar to eVent. Windstopper should be in another category of laminates, not in the waterproof/breathable discussion. Thanks for the correction. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Quote:
Possibly, and surprisingly, there's a good possibilty that the pores from the Gore membranes are also covered with a hydrophobic and oleophobic coating just like eVENT. Why they would use both this coating and the PU-layer is unclear to me.
Though you would think that with as much time as Gore has had in figuring out how to get rid of the PU component from it's membrane, it hasn't. The fact is that it still uses it to fight the contamination issue. Until they figure out how to maintain the surface energy of the membrane without using PU, it will never be as breathable as eVent no matter what kind of marketing spin Gore uses.

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#86357 - 01/08/08 02:39 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: Aviprk]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
Right there, you give the impression that you work for Westcomb, by saying "we." How about Integral Designs
I do work as a Westcomb rep in the Rocky Mountains (I mentioned this in my post). Integral Designs was one of the first companies to use eVent and I failed to remember they made jackets to which I apologize. You are exactly right, Integral Designs, another North American company also uses eVent. Actually before I started with my current rep agency, we represented Integral. Evan Jones is an acquaintance of mine and a visionary thinker. I have much respect for him. I was saddened when, because of outdated fire-retardency laws, was required to stop using eVent in his tents. This is the perfect material for this application.

Westcomb specializes in outerwear and that's all. They started two years ago in Vancouver, Canada and have made some significant strides since then. Our agency picked them up this year and are very excited to see it take off. Most of the companies currently using eVent are from Europe.

I appreciate the clarifications on my post. I want people to get the most accurate info and I would never claim to have all the facts. This is what's so great about forums such as this. I would welcome any other corrections that I may have misrepresented.
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#86358 - 01/08/08 02:47 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: Ben2World]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
Thanks Ben. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
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#86359 - 01/08/08 02:48 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: jasonlivy]
Woubeir Offline
member

Registered: 03/24/06
Posts: 22
Quote:
However, the Gore membrane is the exact same as the XCR which means the breathability, when comparing just the membrane, is the same.

Exactly my idea. I do not contest this.

Quote:
This info I obtained from Alan DIxon of backpackinglight.com. Alan is considered one of the most respected authorities on w/b performance fabric in the outdoor industry and is not affiliated with any company.

Alan Dixon's article about waterproof/breathables was one of the primaryn reasons for me to take a subscription on BPL

Quote:
I did some research on Windstopper and couldn't find anything specifically on how it works. I did surmise that it probably doesn't include the PU membrane, but instead is meant not to be durably waterproof like the other Gore membranes, but maintain it's windproofness even if it is contaminated. Gore's website did say that it uses a hydrophobic 'coating' to keep external moisture from seeping through. However, once this membrane become contaminated with dirt and oil it will leak, thus it is considered only a water resistant and windproof membrane. You are right in saying that Windstopper most likely has the same breathability as the 1st generation Gore or similar to eVent. Windstopper should be in another category of laminates, not in the waterproof/breathable discussion. Thanks for the correction. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I suspect that the hydrophobic coating refers just to the hydrophobic properties of the PTFE membrane and not a specific coating.

Quote:
Though you would think that with as much time as Gore has had in figuring out how to get rid of the PU component from it's membrane, it hasn't. The fact is that it still uses it to fight the contamination issue. Until they figure out how to maintain the surface energy of the membrane without using PU, it will never be as breathable as eVent no matter what kind of marketing spin Gore uses.

I know they still use the PU-layer. But the strange thing is that already as early as 1994, Gore did figure out how to coat the inner structure of the PTFE layer. That's much earlier than BHA with eVENT. For some reason they've never taken the step to bring a product to the market that relies completely on this coating. Even more interestingly, I 've read several documents which seem to describe things like the XCR membrane, paclite, GTX soft shell, stretch gore-tex and even pro shell in which this inner coating was added to the PTFE layer, making the PTFE layer itself also oleophobic. But for some reason, always a PU coating was added on top of the PTFE layer. I still don't understand why they would use both the inner coating and the PU-coating unless they're afraid of durability issues (the argument they use against eVENT)

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#86360 - 01/08/08 03:18 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: Woubeir]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
I still don't understand why they would use both the inner coating and the PU-coating unless they're afraid of durability issues (the argument they use against eVENT)
You are probably right in saying this. I've heard that as well.

I know one of the benefits of having a PU component is in the lamination and taping processes. Because PU adheres so well to the adhesive, Gore most likely thinks that the sacrifice in breathability is made up for in its durability. We discussed this at length at our Westcomb sales meeting.

The explanation I got from the material engineers is that instead of relying on the PU layer for lamination (which makes building a Goretex jacket much easier), Westcomb actually forces the glue through the pores of the membrane (again 80% of the ePTFE membrane is air) at a much higher pressure than is needed for Goretex allowing for the tape to adhere to the face material. This requires the person applying the tape to go much slower and be much more precise. This might also mean why there are fewer companies willing to use eVent. By taping the jackets this way, although it takes much more time to produce, they have found that the seams are just as strong and the tape to be as permanently bonded and wear-resistant as Gore taped seams. Westcomb has also not seen any delamination issues throughout their extensive lab and field testing.

One thing Westcomb has tried to do is narrow their seam tape, but they can only go so far. The narrowest they have been able to use without compromising durability is 11mm. Arcteryx uses 9mm because of the Goretex's PU membrane. This does give credence to the fact that the PU membrane does allow for a better surface adhesion.

Here's an interesting article which explains the new process eVent is using in its application of the hydrophobic, oleophobic polymer. This will actually increase the breathability and performance of the membrane. Innovation is good. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
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#86361 - 01/08/08 03:33 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: jasonlivy]
Ben2World Offline
member

Registered: 10/26/04
Posts: 1754
Loc: So Cal
Jason:

You are welcome. Given your expertise and experience -- methinks it would be enlightening for all concerned if you can do a real life "user test" comparing and contrasting amongst Goretex, eVENT, and MontBell shells. How about it?

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#86362 - 01/08/08 03:38 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: jasonlivy]
Woubeir Offline
member

Registered: 03/24/06
Posts: 22
Quote:

I know one of the benefits of having a PU component is in the lamination and taping processes. Because PU adheres so well to the adhesive, Gore most likely thinks that the sacrifice in breathability is made up for in its durability. We discussed this at length at our Westcomb sales meeting. The explanation I got from the material engineers is that instead of relying on the PU layer for lamination (which makes building a Goretex jacket much easier), Westcomb actually forces the glue through the pores of the membrane (again 80% of the ePTFE membrane is air) at a much higher pressure than is needed for Goretex allowing for the tape to adhere to the face material.

This indeed sounds very logic to me. In fact, I think it's the same way Gore solved delamination problems they had by forcing the PU layer partly inside the PTFE-layer

The supercritical gas based production method is indeed a very cool thing (literaly <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ). Perhaps the coolest feature is what I would call the self-healing property it adds to the membrane.

I've taken a look to Westcomb but currently the main problem is it's very hard to get any detailed information abou them. Their products are hard to find. I received their 08 catalog but it doesn't explain enough what makes them so different. Now, if they would add pit zips to their lighter jackets, that would be something.

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#86363 - 01/08/08 03:57 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: Ben2World]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
You are welcome. Given your expertise and experience -- methinks it would be enlightening for all concerned if you can do a real life "user test" comparing and contrasting amongst Goretex, eVENT, and MontBell shells. How about it?
I do have a "hookup" with Mont Bell. I'm also planning on going to Ecuador this summer for a mountaineering expedition to climb Cotopaxi. I already own several Gore and eVent jackets so I'm 3/4 the way there. I would be very interested to feel the difference between eVent and MontBell's Breeze Dry (and owning another jacket is always a good thing). Bring it on! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
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#86364 - 01/08/08 05:09 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: jasonlivy]
TomTrout Offline
member

Registered: 08/23/06
Posts: 18
I'm interested in a real world comparison. How does an eVent product compare to the latest and greatest from Gore? Assume rainy weather, and hiking with a pack. Can you actually feel a breathability difference?

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#86365 - 01/08/08 05:28 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: TomTrout]
Carter Offline
member

Registered: 01/05/02
Posts: 355
Loc: Missoula, MT
One of the best ways that I've heard of for testing competing shell materials is to divide the material laterally down the middle--with one side Gore (for example) and the other eVent. I read that Patagonia did this once, and perhaps they still do. Of course, this would require considerable expertise in garment construction, but you would really be able to test the effectiveness of each material in a real world application.

I have several garments made with eVent (plus many more in all manners of Gore, H2No, Precip, etc.). So far, I think that eVent is excellent, but there are some limitations. First it is surprisingly not 100 percent windproof. Maybe that's OK for most people, but I want something windproof when skiing downhill at 30 mph at 0 degree F.

Second, I've found that the scrim on all the eVent stuff I have is much more prone to abrasion (from Velcro and other rough stuff) than the tricot used on garments made from Gore and H2No. Others have commented that the scrim can conceiveably be made from tougher material, but I haven't seen it yet.

Third, I haven't seen the eVent stuff from RAB in person, but all the rest of the jackets and pants in eVent are underwhelming (to me) in the fit and features department.

As for the breathability of eVent vs. Gore PacLite, my experience is rather similar to that of the Outdoors Magic test done some time ago--there isn't much practical difference:

Outdoors Magic

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#86366 - 01/08/08 05:46 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: TomTrout]
sabre11004 Offline
member

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 513
Loc: Tennessee


All these fabrics are different fabric...all with the "Gore-Tex" material in them for a water proof or resistant property..Hopes that helps...sabre11004....


The first step that you take will be one of those that get you there....
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#86367 - 01/08/08 05:49 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: TomTrout]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
See my PM.
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#86368 - 01/08/08 05:53 PM Re: All Gore's creations/windstop [Re: Woubeir]
sabre11004 Offline
member

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 513
Loc: Tennessee


I may be wrong but I think that"windstop" is a "PolarTec" trademark fabric..sabre11004....



The first step that you take is one of those that will get you there... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
The first step that you take will be one of those that get you there 1!!!!!

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#86369 - 01/08/08 06:23 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: Carter]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
As for the breathability of eVent vs. Gore PacLite, my experience is rather similar to that of the Outdoors Magic test done some time ago--there isn't much practical difference:
This has not been my experience at all. One example I would give is a trip I made to the Olympics in Washington mountain biking. It was raining a slow drizzle that slowly increased throughout the day. My options were to either get soaked or wear a jacket and get slightly less soaked. I knew that a Gore jacket would leave me drenched (as has been my experience in the past, including PacLite), but I was wearing a Pearl Izumi eVENT and hadn't really pushed it to its limits. I thought this would be the perfect opportunity.

I frankly thought that I would be shedding it a mile down the trail, but this was not the case. I actually wore it the entire 18 miles and was only slightly damp at the end. I was definitely dryer than if I were to have not worn it. Mountain biking is a strenuous activity, far more than simply hiking. This caused me to reflect on how amazing it was that I was only damp. I was impressed to say the least.

Since I am on the road a lot, I tend to do some pretty low key tests as I drive. One of these is wear different w/b shells. If, at the end of my trip, I feel clammy in any way, I make a note of it. Every time I wear a Gore tex jacket, not matter if it's XCR or Paclite, I feel slightly clammy. However, all of the eVENT jackets (including a new Westcomb softshell jacket that uses a stretch woven outer material laminated to an eVENT membrane, which is then laminated to a light-weight Merino Wool layer; only one of its kind), I have never felt clammy. The most important reality is that I simply wear my eVENT shells where I don't my Gore shells anymore.

Quote:
Second, I've found that the scrim on all the eVent stuff I have is much more prone to abrasion (from Velcro and other rough stuff) than the tricot used on garments made from Gore and H2No. Others have commented that the scrim can conceiveably be made from tougher material, but I haven't seen it yet.
I personally haven't seen any difference in the tricot durability between Gore and eVENT. I think it's pretty standard stuff as far as I can see. I'm not discounting your experience, just sharing mine.


Quote:
Third, I haven't seen the eVent stuff from RAB in person, but all the rest of the jackets and pants in eVent are underwhelming (to me) in the fit and features department.
Check out this jacket. It is like no other available incorporating an iPod controller using copper-infused material as the 'wire' to transmit the signal to the iPod. It is cutting edge technology almost relegating the eVENT membrane to the back seat. It is constructed as well as any jacket on the market and is the only true competitor to Arcteryx. I say this and repeat it here only because very few people have even heard of Westcomb. I barely heard about it a few months ago. Since then I have toured the factories in Vancouver and have used several of their jackets in different conditions. It is as good as stuff as I have ever seen (I'm pretty picky) and the fit is the best I have ever worn (size medium). I am working hard to get it into more stores so that it can be seen by the general public. I believe they have ideas beyond eVENT that will revolutionize the outerwear market. They have already won 2 Polartec Apex Awards and ISPO BrandNew Award for 2007. It's a brand to keep your eye on for sure.
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#86370 - 01/09/08 01:07 AM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: Carter]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
I have several garments made with eVent (plus many more in all manners of Gore, H2No, Precip, etc.). So far, I think that eVent is excellent, but there are some limitations. First it is surprisingly not 100 percent windproof. Maybe that's OK for most people, but I want something windproof when skiing downhill at 30 mph at 0 degree F.
I'm interested to know why you think it isn't windproof? I'm not discounting your experience, just curious. As most w/b membranes are completely windproof due to the fact that they have to be because of their waterproofness, I'm not sure how eVENT isn't completely windproof as well.

Air permeability, that which gives fleece and softshells a one-up on hardshells in terms of ventilation, is recorded through cfm measurements. The only air permeable w/b membrane that I know of is Schoeller's WB-400 which records 3 cfm (cubic ft per minute), helping it's breathability. This laminate, after it is applied, expands slightly resembling very fine foam. This 'foaming' action gives it it's air permeability. It is only used with 4-way stretch woven, or softshell, materials. All other membranes and laminates are completely windproof, or, in other words, record 0 cfm.
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#86371 - 01/09/08 05:19 AM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: jasonlivy]
Woubeir Offline
member

Registered: 03/24/06
Posts: 22
Quote:
I know one of the benefits of having a PU component is in the lamination and taping processes. Because PU adheres so well to the adhesive, Gore most likely thinks that the sacrifice in breathability is made up for in its durability.

Actually, I'm not sure this is the exact argument Gore uses. Don't forget that first generation Gore-tex had no PU-layer (and thus was even more breathable than eVENT). Even now almost 30 years later, the only argument I've heard why they added the PU-layers was the contamination issue. What I have heard is that Gore assumes or assumed that the inner coating is/was not durable enough and that in the medium or long term, contamination of the PTFE membrane could still take place. But to my knowledge, the enhanced production method used by BHA should address part of this problem. OTOH, even if contaminants would physically start to block the pores of the eVENT membrane, it would be much easier to remove than in first generation gore-tex since the bonding strength of the contaminants with the membrane woulde be lower in case of eVENT.

Even if the lack of a PU layer makes the construction harder and thus more difficult, then I still can't see why Gore wouldn't investigate this route. Can you imagine that a brand like Arc'teryx wouldn't jump on this wagon. They praise themself as the masters of lamination technology. Look at their line of packs or the new climbing harnesses; lamination is a distinct feature of all those products. I can 't imagine that they would leave this challenge to others. So what if it is more expensive. Since when has the price been an issue for Arc'teryx?


Edited by Woubeir (01/09/08 05:47 AM)

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#86372 - 01/09/08 05:21 AM Re: All Gore's creations/windstop [Re: sabre11004]
Woubeir Offline
member

Registered: 03/24/06
Posts: 22
Quote:


I may be wrong but I think that"windstop" is a "PolarTec" trademark fabric..sabre11004....



Windstopper is a Gore trademark. The trademark from Polartec is Windbloc.

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#86373 - 01/09/08 05:42 AM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: jasonlivy]
Woubeir Offline
member

Registered: 03/24/06
Posts: 22
Quote:
Check out this jacket. It is like no other available incorporating an iPod controller using copper-infused material as the 'wire' to transmit the signal to the iPod. It is cutting edge technology almost relegating the eVENT membrane to the back seat. It is constructed as well as any jacket on the market and is the only true competitor to Arcteryx. I say this and repeat it here only because very few people have even heard of Westcomb. I barely heard about it a few months ago. Since then I have toured the factories in Vancouver and have used several of their jackets in different conditions. It is as good as stuff as I have ever seen (I'm pretty picky) and the fit is the best I have ever worn (size medium). I am working hard to get it into more stores so that it can be seen by the general public. I believe they have ideas beyond eVENT that will revolutionize the outerwear market. They have already won 2 Polartec Apex Awards and ISPO BrandNew Award for 2007. It's a brand to keep your eye on for sure.

The problem of Westcomb is that they're a still a small company. I believe they only exist since 2004. The first time I heard about them was somewhere in 2006 and I have been trying to find out more since then. But there website has little information and the catalog/workbook I received has little more. They should pay more attention to what makes them different from the rest. Ok, they use eVENT but so do brands like Integral Designs and Loki and European brands like RAB are trying to get a piece of the NA market. So the fact that they use eVENT is not enough to make them different.
I have a number of catalogs and workbooks from Arc'teryx and they are a master in showing there attention to detail. I think Westcomb should try to do the same.

The problem is that if nobody offers the perfect mix of all. eVENT has a distinct advantage in its mebrane technology while Gore seems to have the edge if you look to construction. An eVENT membrane combined with a Pro Shell backer should be awesome. Arc'teryx offers some features which e.g. Westcomb doesn't seem to offer and vice versa. One of the things I regret is that the latest jackets from Westcomb have no specific ventilation openings. BHA can tell me what they want, no membrane currently works that well that I can't overwhelm it.
Things can change very quicly by the way. As already mentioned, Gore has the possibility to make membranes similar to eVENT. They already have them, just not in jackets currently.

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#86374 - 01/09/08 05:55 AM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: jasonlivy]
Woubeir Offline
member

Registered: 03/24/06
Posts: 22
Quote:
I'm interested to know why you think it isn't windproof? I'm not discounting your experience, just curious. As most w/b membranes are completely windproof due to the fact that they have to be because of their waterproofness, I'm not sure how eVENT isn't completely windproof as well.

Air permeability, that which gives fleece and softshells a one-up on hardshells in terms of ventilation, is recorded through cfm measurements. The only air permeable w/b membrane that I know of is Schoeller's WB-400 which records 3 cfm (cubic ft per minute), helping it's breathability. This laminate, after it is applied, expands slightly resembling very fine foam. This 'foaming' action gives it it's air permeability. It is only used with 4-way stretch woven, or softshell, materials. All other membranes and laminates are completely windproof, or, in other words, record 0 cfm.

That's not exactly true. As already metnioned before, membranes like eVENT and windstopper have an open pore structure which allow a tiny amount of air to pass through. These amounts aren't certainly in the same league as true soft shell fabrics like WB-400, Powershield or stretch wovens which have CFM ratings from 3 up to 40 or 50. If I remember correctly, the CFM ratings for windstopper and eVENT lies between 0,3 and 1 CFM. Not much but enough to have an effect on breathability (it is the reason why eVENT performs that well) and why you can feel a slight breeze through the fabrics. Why do people say this about eVENT and not about windstopper ? It could be because windstopper garments in general seem to use heavier face fabrics and linings which have an effect too.

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#86375 - 01/09/08 06:03 AM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: Woubeir]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
I don't think goretex, etc are neccessary over wool.
It is useful as a bivy.

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#86376 - 01/09/08 10:35 AM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: Woubeir]
Ben2World Offline
member

Registered: 10/26/04
Posts: 1754
Loc: So Cal
Woubeir:

When buying a jacket that uses a proven and well-known key component such as eVENT, I'd just check on the workmanship -- making sure the stitching and seam sealing are done properly. I would also check to see that it has the features I want at the weight that I can live with. The fact that the jacket is made by a newish, smallish company is of very, very little concern to me. What's the hang up about company size or history when you are buying a jacket? It's not like you're investing in an entire IT system...

Goretex's breathability is significantly INFERIOR to eVENT in large part because of its extra PU coating. You keep mentioning about Goretex having something similar... but the reality is that for whatever reason, Goretex has chosen NOT to go that route even if it means much-improved breathability. I think I can deduce why.

Companies like Integral Designs are much smaller -- and they cater to a smaller crowd -- hikers who give UL and breathability a very high priority -- and they tend to understand the strength and limitations of eVENT and are willing to abide by them.

In contrast, Goretex is really for the mass market -- from "real hikers" all the way to the proverbial "soccer mom". Ultralight and ultra breathability are perhaps not as critical as a garment that will last -- particularly since many wear their jackets 'in town'. In the mass market, many buyers expect their so-called "extreme garments" to be just as convenient, comfortable, stylish and dependable as any of their other garments!

Often, if you want "cutting edge" performance -- it comes with limitations -- and are therefore offered mostly by smaller, more specialized companies. But if you -- like folks in the mass market -- value brand and dependability -- then stick with the mainstream. Just understand that they generally can't afford to take the same risks as smaller outfits. The Goretex laminate itself hasn't changed much in the last 20 or so years. Writing on and on about other goodies that Goretex might have in their product lab is just a waste of time -- if Goretex is not prepared to bring them to market.

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#86377 - 01/09/08 11:52 AM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: Ben2World]
Woubeir Offline
member

Registered: 03/24/06
Posts: 22
Ben,
just to be clear, I have no problem with Westcomb being a small company. On the contrary, all big companies started as small companies, often in their garage. And most of the time, they were created because of dissatisfaction with what was available at that time. I'm always on the look-out on what small companies like Tarptent, MLD, ULA, ... are bringing to the market. My main problem is that it's very hard to find any of the Westcomb products (being from Europe doesn't help here) and almost as difficult to find out why I should take a look at their products.

What branding concerns, all that interests me is performance, value for money. I don't care from which brand it comes.
The fact that I still point to the capabilites of Gore to make something similar, has more to do with the fact that currently people seem to disregard Gore as something from the past. How often have I seen people write that they would never buy Gore again. If it's gore-tex, it's automatically inferior to eVENT. That's just silly.

Well, back to my tarptent, thermawrap jacket, torsolite pad, valandre sleeping bag, all from mass market brands <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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#86378 - 01/09/08 11:59 AM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: Woubeir]
Ben2World Offline
member

Registered: 10/26/04
Posts: 1754
Loc: So Cal
Woubeir:

Your wrote above, "The problem of Westcomb is that they're a still a small company."

So good that you clarified. I hope you see my point about Goretex as well. Indeed, I do associate them with "the past" -- meaning simply that their products are not cutting edge (with all the associated pros and cons) -- but that's really because of the much-wider market that they serve -- not because their scientists aren't smart enough or anything like that.

My needs are different and yes, I do disregard Goretex completely. But for every fringe guy like me, Goretex focuses on and serves 10,000 others. No need to get defensive... some of us are simply NOT part of the market that Goretex has chosen to serve.

It's the same reason why the gear you just mentioned above mainly come from smaller companies that serve a more specialized clientele.

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#86379 - 01/09/08 12:00 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: Woubeir]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
If I remember correctly, the CFM ratings for windstopper and eVENT lies between 0,3 and 1 CFM.
I have no idea where you're getting this info, but every source I have says otherwise. These materials do not rely on air permeability for their breathability. Schoeller's WB-400 was designed for softshell stretch wovens and relies on it's small amount of air permeability for it's breathability. In fact, what makes this Schoeller material unique is that it has a slight bit of cfm something that no other membrane has been able to accomplish. The only thing close would be Polartec WindPro which it's cfm is around 20 or so.

I stand by what I said and have not doubts. I'm certain that eVENT is completely windproof recording 0 cfm. I will have to respectfully disagree.

By the way, WB-400 is similar to Windstopper in that both are a laminate. The difference, again, is that WB-400 has a slight bit of air permeability where Windstopper has none.
Quote:
Not much but enough to have an effect on breathability (it is the reason why eVENT performs that well) and why you can feel a slight breeze through the fabrics
The reason why eVENT performs well is not because of air permeability. eVENT does well because it doesn't have a solid PU membrane blocking the moisture from escaping. It has nothing to do with how much air can pass through. The pores are simply too small. A way of demonstrating this is to take a piece of eVENT or Windstopper and try to blow through it. I've done this countless times in demos and have never felt a thing. If eVENT allowed a slight breeze to pass I should be able to feel my breath which I don't.

eVENT works slowly through a pressure build-up inside the jacket forcing the moisture through the membrane. Goretex relys on the PU membrane to absorb moisture once it's built up, thus the diffusion principle when mated with a hydrophilic material.

I would also dispute that the 1st generation Gore was more breathable than eVENT. I would say they had similar characteristics, but I doubt one was better than the other in this regard. Again, why Gore has floundered with it's technology when they owned it for so long is beyond me. For many, it's hard to believe that they are relegated to take a back seat to another w/b brand. I think their intro of ProShell is an indication that they are floundering.
Quote:
Why do people say this about eVENT and not about windstopper ? It could be because windstopper garments in general seem to use heavier face fabrics and linings which have an effect too.
With all due respect, this statement doesn't really make much sense. If Windstopper has the same ePTFE characteristics as eVENT, they they should perform similarly. Windstopper is typically either laminated to stretch woven material in a softshell application or to 100 weight fleece. Both these materials are the worst at stopping wind. On the other hand, eVENT is typically laminated to tightly knit outer material that is much better at keeping wind at bay. In fact, most of the outer material that eVENT uses has a very high thread count per square inch. So by my deductions, the eVENT material would perform much better than Windstopper in stopping wind.
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#86380 - 01/09/08 12:03 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: Ben2World]
ringtail Offline
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Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 2296
Loc: Colorado Rockies
Well said, Ben.

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#86381 - 01/09/08 12:29 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: Woubeir]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
The problem of Westcomb is that they're a still a small company. I believe they only exist since 2004. The first time I heard about them was somewhere in 2006 and I have been trying to find out more since then. But there website has little information and the catalog/workbook I received has little more. They should pay more attention to what makes them different from the rest. Ok, they use eVENT but so do brands like Integral Designs and Loki and European brands like RAB are trying to get a piece of the NA market. So the fact that they use eVENT is not enough to make them different.
I have a number of catalogs and workbooks from Arc'teryx and they are a master in showing there attention to detail. I think Westcomb should try to do the same.
You are exactly right about how available and how hard it is to find info on them and their products. This is something they are working on, but they are very limited with their time, personnel, resources, money, and a million other road blocks. Arcteryx had similar issues when they first began. However, Westcomb owns their own factories, something that Arcteryx never has (being made in China now). In fact, Westcomb built many of the Arcteryx jackets back when they were made in Canada. As you inspect both Westcomb and Arcteryx jackets, you will see similarities. We were sued twice by Arcteryx, and won both times. I guess they're a little scared<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />. We aren't going away and you will soon see some very compelling reasons why we should be taken seriously.

The outdoor industry is all about companies like Westcomb that bring new innovation and ideas to market. This is a small percentage of goods, but most of the ideas from other companies come from small startup ventures. I'm honored to be a part of it and look forward to the future. I'm not looking to make millions of dollars, but rather am passionate about new innovation and workmanship. I like owning something that I can be proud of. They are taking huge risks and sacrificing a lot to bring their ideas and products to market. This is what most of us crave as consumers in this industry.
Quote:
One of the things I regret is that the latest jackets from Westcomb have no specific ventilation openings. BHA can tell me what they want, no membrane currently works that well that I can't overwhelm it.
The Mirage and iMirage both have pit zips. We have a couple of other jackets that also have pit zips. The use of eVENT does allow us to not include them in our lightweight shells, but all of our more 'heavy duty' shells do incorporate pit zips.
Quote:
Things can change very quicly by the way. As already mentioned, Gore has the possibility to make membranes similar to eVENT. They already have them, just not in jackets currently.
Fine. I'm all for innovation. If they bring out something better than eVENT then I'll be all over it. Right now, however, eVENT is putting a big hurt on Gore, like it or not.
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#86382 - 01/09/08 12:41 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: jasonlivy]
Woubeir Offline
member

Registered: 03/24/06
Posts: 22
Quote:

I have no idea where you're getting this info, but every source I have says otherwise. These materials do not rely on air permeability for their breathability. Schoeller's WB-400 was designed for softshell stretch wovens and relies on it's small amount of air permeability for it's breathability. In fact, what makes this Schoeller material unique is that it has a slight bit of cfm something that no other membrane has been able to accomplish. The only thing close would be Polartec WindPro which it's cfm is around 20 or so. I stand by what I said and have not doubts. I'm certain that eVENT is completely windproof recording 0 cfm. I will have to respectfully disagree.

And I'm afraid I have to disagree with you
I have the air-permeability numbers right in front of me.
and take a look at:
http://www.outdoorsmagic.com/news/article/mps/UAN/3921/V/2/SP/
I'm not saying air permeability is really big; just in the range of 0,25 to 0,4 CFM. Not much but noticable.
Other air permeability figures (offical figures from Polartec):
powershield 6 to 10
powershield O2 40
windpro 60


Quote:
I
By the way, WB-400 is similar to Windstopper in that both are a laminate. The difference, again, is that WB-400 has a slight bit of air permeability where Windstopper has none.

For windstopper, go to the windstopper website where you will see that Gore claims an air permeability of no more 5L/mē.s (or equivalent in imperial units) (watch the movie)

Quote:
The reason why eVENT performs well is not because of air permeability. eVENT does well because it doesn't have a solid PU membrane blocking the moisture from escaping. It has nothing to do with how much air can pass through. The pores are simply too small. A way of demonstrating this is to take a piece of eVENT or Windstopper and try to blow through it. I've done this countless times in demos and have never felt a thing. If eVENT allowed a slight breeze to pass I should be able to feel my breath which I don't.

see the test as performed in the Outdoorsmagic link.
The fact that eVENT has no solid PU-layer allows it to use the porous structure of the PTFE layer to its full potential. The slight air permeability helps. When I put my sleeping bag in my dry bag with eVENT bottom, I can definitely feel the air being pushed through the eVENT layer, not the seams.

Quote:

I would also dispute that the 1st generation Gore was more breathable than eVENT. I would say they had similar characteristics, but I doubt one was better than the other in this regard.

First generation Gore-tex used a bare PTFE layer. eVENT uses the PTFE layer but coated with a tiny layer of a fluorocarbon based acrylate or methacrylate. This makes the pores a tiny bit smaller and thus also the breathabilty. Ever seen the famous Gibson graph in which a number of membranes and coatings were compared to PTFE? In fact, minimising the thickness of the coating layer seemed to be one of the challenges in creating the eVENT membrane. Putting the coating inside was not the problem, just chemistry and using the right solvent (IPA), finding a stable chemical emulsion and a polymerisation process which didn't clog the pores was the real challenge. Of course, now they use CO2 as a solvent.

Quote:

If Windstopper has the same ePTFE characteristics as eVENT, they they should perform similarly.

And I know people who have used both who say they do have similar characteristics. But you can actually really compare both if all factors except the membranes are kept constant.

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#86383 - 01/09/08 12:51 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: jasonlivy]
Woubeir Offline
member

Registered: 03/24/06
Posts: 22
Believe me, I really hope they can make it. I really do. It perhaps sounds as if I'm all into Gore but I'm certainly not. Recently I asked some very critical questions to Gore, over and over again when their answers were too vague and in the end I still hadn't got my answer but they were sounding nervous and irritated. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


If you think eVENT is the top, do a search on "ion masking" and "P2i". These guys are claiming waterproof membranes and coatings have had their best time and will be outdated in a very short time. Very interesting stuff.

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#86384 - 01/09/08 01:31 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: Woubeir]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
Your talking about 'feeling' wind through the membrane, not just a few bubbles coming through after a significant amount of pressure is applied. Even at 1 cfm (which is way more than eVENT would ever allow) you would have to really concentrate to feel this amount of air.

Try blowing through Polertec Powershield. You do feel your breath (at least I do). This is at 6 cfm. Now try blowing through eVENT or Windstopper. No breath is felt. Hmmm.... Air permeability is not in the equation for eVENT. I would acknowledge that a very tiny bit of air is able to help dry out the membrane, but no way is there wind or air coming through that can be felt. Something is playing with your mind.

I've read all the articles you've read and checked out all of the online resources available. I've also got some inside data from Westcomb where they've gotten it from eVENT. Their livelyhoods depend upon the accuracy of this data. They also do inhouse tests on the fabric before using it. They have told me, without question, that eVENT is completely windproof.

I stand corrected on WindPro. It was a total guess, but my point was that materials such as Polartec's WindPro are designed to allow air to pass through it to allow it's air permeable nature to help keep the person comfortable in certain situations. WB-400 is designed to be far more windproof, but allow for a tiny bit of air permeability. eVENT and Windstopper are absolutely windproof.
Quote:
For windstopper, go to the windstopper website where you will see that Gore claims an air permeability of no more 5L/mē.s (or equivalent in imperial units) (watch the movie)
They also claimed that Windstopper is 'absolutely windproof'. After watching the video, it showed Windstopper settle at around 2.1 l/mē (compared to 740 l/mē, or 26.1 cfm, for standard fleece). This converts to 0.07 cfm. That, in my mind, means that wind can in no way be felt through the membrane. I would dare say that this would be the case for eVENT as well in that the two membranes are so similar. Even if it was 5 l/mē, this would convert to only 0.17 cfm.
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#86385 - 01/09/08 01:52 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: TomTrout]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Wow, I learned a whole lot about gore and event. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> Keep up the good work guys. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
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#86386 - 01/09/08 01:54 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: Woubeir]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
If you think eVENT is the top, do a search on "ion masking" and "P2i". These guys are claiming waterproof membranes and coatings have had their best time and will be outdated in a very short time. Very interesting stuff.
This stuff looks pretty cool! I think it should be used as the ultimate DWR, but I don't know if it will replace laminates. I would have to see if it is durably waterproof first before I was totally convinced.

The fact that it is only nanometers thin and encapsulates the fibers with a chemical bond makes it highly desirable.

Schoeller's Nanosphere is similar in that it uses nano particles to chemically bond to the surface of the material in an encapulation process. It doesn't wash away and has been shown to be one of the best DWRs on the market. In my demonstrations, I pour juice, pop, or whatever I have on me to show it's water resistance and stain resistance.

Hopefully P2i will be at the Outdoor Retail Show so I can take a looksee.
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#86387 - 01/09/08 01:55 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: Ben2World]
Woubeir Offline
member

Registered: 03/24/06
Posts: 22
Ben,
you wrote:[
So good that you clarified. I hope you see my point about Goretex as well. Indeed, I do associate them with "the past" -- meaning simply that their products are not cutting edge (with all the associated pros and cons)

I actually do agree with you: currently Gore-tex seems to have been fallen behind. But I purposely use the term "currently" because things can change, sometimes very fast. Perhaps I haven't explained myself very well. What I mean when I say that people disregard Gore completely, is the fact that a lot of people had already an opinion on and were disregarding gore-tex pro shell when nobody exactly knew what was it all about, nobody knew what had changed and nobody had had a chance to test the stuff. It was a gore-tex product so it was automatically inferior. That, I think, is silly. For me everything is an option untill someone has prooven it shouldn't be.

Actually, I do hope that Gore comes with something similar like eVENT for the simple reason that up to now, I haven't seen a single eVENT jacket which gives me that very exciting feeling. The cut is wrong, the details are wrong, the lay-out is wrong, construction is crap and when I find a jacket that could be it (like the Westcomb Specter), it has not ventilation openings. And I think you know very well what Mark Verber said about the comparison between his eVENT shell and his Peak jacket.
Otoh, some gore-tex based jackets seem to have almost everything I prefer, except that they are using gore-tex. Of course, if someone just would make the perfect eVENT shell, that would be a lot easier. Is someone hearing me? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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#86388 - 01/09/08 02:14 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: jasonlivy]
Woubeir Offline
member

Registered: 03/24/06
Posts: 22
Jason,
let's agree that we will perhaps never completely agree. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

My own experience is that under some circumstances, a slight breeze can be felt through the membrane. That's not a guess, that's a fact.
I'm not saying it's enough to get chilly, I'm just saying that tiny amount is enough to enhance breathabilty a bit. and every bit counts for me.

Quote:
I've read all the articles you've read and checked out all of the online resources available.

That's a very bold claim. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

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#86389 - 01/09/08 02:19 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: jasonlivy]
Woubeir Offline
member

Registered: 03/24/06
Posts: 22
Quote:
This stuff looks pretty cool! I think it should be used as the ultimate DWR, but I don't know if it will replace laminates. I would have to see if it is durably waterproof first before I was totally convinced.


They're going to use it in footwear from fall 2008. They claim to have tested these shoes with all the regular tests used for waterproof footwear (flex tests, ...) and no leaks were observed. Very intruiging stuff.

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#86390 - 01/09/08 02:26 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: Woubeir]
Ben2World Offline
member

Registered: 10/26/04
Posts: 1754
Loc: So Cal
Quote:

It was a gore-tex product so it was automatically inferior. That, I think, is silly. For me everything is an option untill someone has prooven it shouldn't be.

And I think you know very well what Mark Verber said about the comparison between his eVENT shell and his Peak jacket.

Otoh, some gore-tex based jackets seem to have almost everything I prefer, except that they are using gore-tex. Of course, if someone just would make the perfect eVENT shell, that would be a lot easier. Is someone hearing me? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Agree. Who knows what good things are lurking inside Gore labs. But as I said, big companies tend to move much slower. I bet there are tons of good things lurking in GM labs as well -- but we all know how conservative that behemoth is...

Mark Verber spoke very highly of the Peak jacket. All zipped up, his eVENT jacket was still the more breathabe of the two -- but with the Peak's many venting options, he thought the Peak was the more comfy of the two -- everything considered. I have a Peak jacket myself, and I really, really like it!

Looking ONLY at what's actually available on the market, and knowing that current Goretex stuff is very much inferior compared to either eVENT or Peak -- this is why I completely disregard Goretex. Obviously, in the battle for our wallets, every genuinely new product announcement opens up a totally new battle front! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#86391 - 01/09/08 02:54 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: finallyME]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
Jason why don't you bridge the gap for us here and have the company advertise on a banner here at our forum. Surely there would be a group buy interest from some here; and that would infuse cash into the small company for a minor outlay for advertising here. WE are their market after all.....ok, us and those 'other folk' over at BPL <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
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#86392 - 01/09/08 10:36 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: Woubeir]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
That's a very bold claim.
Your right. What I meant to say is that I've read all of the articles you presented in your post prior to this discussion, not to imply that I've read EVERY article you've read on the subject (my mistake). Also I should clarify that I've searched the internet tirelessly, but it is really impossible to say that I've checked out EVERY source available on the net. Again, my mistake.

I have spent more time than I wish to admit finding out the real story about w/b technology. I've thought about it probably way to much. I want to make sure that I'm not being influenced by marketing hype and heresay, which includes the companies I represent. My goal is when I recommend a product, I know as much of the truth as I can about it. This is a tall order when it comes to technical gear, especially when representing 7 companies! I pay attention to different folk's experiences through forums and reviews, as well as study, both in print and on the internet, published professional reviews that are non-biased. It's easy to see bias for me and I tend to disregard this info. Just the facts, please. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I've enjoyed our conversation and have learned much about this topic. I have new questions that I plan to ask the experts at the OR Show. Eventually I hope to be considered a person that can be relied upon as someone who knows what the @#$% he is talking about. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
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#86393 - 01/09/08 10:44 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: Earthling]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
Jason why don't you bridge the gap for us here and have the company advertise on a banner here at our forum. Surely there would be a group buy interest from some here; and that would infuse cash into the small company for a minor outlay for advertising here. WE are their market after all.....ok, us and those 'other folk' over at BPL <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I will recommend this to Westcomb in our next meeting in a couple of weeks. Great suggestion! I would love to hear your opinions on these jackets. I agree, we (I feel like your are all family <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />) are Westcomb's primary market.

I'm going to start a new thread about the 'perfect' jacket so as not to hijack this one.
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#86394 - 01/10/08 01:08 AM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: jasonlivy]
Woubeir Offline
member

Registered: 03/24/06
Posts: 22
Quote:
I have spent more time than I wish to admit finding out the real story about w/b technology. I've thought about it probably way to much. I want to make sure that I'm not being influenced by marketing hype and heresay, which includes the companies I represent. My goal is when I recommend a product, I know as much of the truth as I can about it. This is a tall order when it comes to technical gear, especially when representing 7 companies! I pay attention to different folk's experiences through forums and reviews, as well as study, both in print and on the internet, published professional reviews that are non-biased. It's easy to see bias for me and I tend to disregard this info. Just the facts, please. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I think at this point, we're not that different from eachother. Every company, big or small, is selling itself to the public and does this (or has to do this) with very bold (and often entirely) misleading claims. So I do the same thing as you: I begin to search as a madman to find out as much as possible and to find out if those claims make any sense. Sometimes they do, often they don't.

Quote:
I've enjoyed our conversation and have learned much about this topic. I have new questions that I plan to ask the experts at the OR Show. Eventually I hope to be considered a person that can be relied upon as someone who knows what the @#$% he is talking about. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I too have learned interesting things. And please, feel free to share what you've learned at the OR show because there is always more to learn.
Based on the input you've given here ove the years, I think most people already dare to relie on what you say. But it raises the stakes: getting there is the easy part, staying there is much more difficult <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

PS: not to hijack this thread but if you are at OR, try to ask the guys from MSR how the pressure regulator in the Reactor stove works. I can see it work in limiting too high pressure but not in enhancing performance in freezing temperatures (when pressure inside the gastank is low). I've tested another stove with a regulator and its effect was zero. Another one of those bold claims <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

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#86395 - 01/11/08 04:35 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: jasonlivy]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
Well, we consider you part of our greater family here too Jason <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Glad to have you stirring the fire here with us. Maybe you can start a thread titled,"Questions for jason to ask the Reps' at the OR show" <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> Then take a mini recorder to get the answers <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
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#86396 - 01/11/08 05:34 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: Earthling]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
Well, we consider you part of our greater family here too Jason <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Glad to have you stirring the fire here with us. Maybe you can start a thread titled,"Questions for jason to ask the Reps' at the OR show" <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> Then take a mini recorder to get the answers <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
I do take pretty good notes. I like your idea. I'll do it, start a new thread that is. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
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#124000 - 11/18/09 10:03 AM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: jasonlivy]
Steadman Offline
member

Registered: 09/17/09
Posts: 510
Loc: Virginia
All

Thank you for the education. It generates a question:

What durability concerns go with owning an eVent jacket?


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#124077 - 11/19/09 04:53 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: Steadman]
Woubeir Offline
member

Registered: 03/24/06
Posts: 22
Wow,that's an old thread.
Perhaps this has been updated already but in case it's not, I need to rectify something. In one of the first posts, it was said that Gore Pro Shell used a protein as a liner. Now, I don't know if this has been rectified already but in case it's not (and should be since I passed here already), the main difference (and perhaps the only real) between XCR and Pro Shell is that in the 3-layer version XCR uses a warp knit lining while Pro Shell uses a low density woven lining that is supposed to be more breathable, lighter and more durable. So no prtein involved.

For the rest, realise that both Gore and GE (BHA) probably knows eachother weak points and strong points and probably will only admitt their strong points and never their weak points. A very few times, someone from Gore admitted that eVENT was more breathable but this was immediately followed that in th long rong Gore-tex was still more durable. Some manufacturers said they would keep on using Gore-tex because it was more durable.

Does that mean they are right? No idea. Just realise that they will all tell us the story they want us to hear.

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#124105 - 11/20/09 09:34 AM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: Woubeir]
Steadman Offline
member

Registered: 09/17/09
Posts: 510
Loc: Virginia
Woubeir; thanks... I started a new thread so that my question wouldnt be buried under all the old stuff.

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#124360 - 11/24/09 08:43 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: Ben2World]
Kent W Offline
member

Registered: 10/15/09
Posts: 607
Loc: IL.
While minor improvments over time are inevitable. I strongley beleive Gor Tex probably hasnt changed much. For the most part marketing stratgy is the key. Give it a Name and they will spend! Fabrics are not as high tech as computer processors. NYlon is nylon and coatings are coatings. I may be wrong here but there are now many generic versions of Gor Tex. I do own a set of Gor Tex I Purchased at Cabellas over ten years ago. Until I see strong non biased evedence of comparing apples to apples and oranges to oranges, I have no intention of laying out another 250.00 to 300.00 to replace it!
Happy Trails!


Edited by Kent W (11/24/09 08:44 PM)

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#124413 - 11/25/09 05:21 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: TomTrout]
jasonklass Offline
member

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 551
Loc: Denver, Colorado
I was recently at one of Gore's facilities in Maryland. For anyone who is interested, I posted some videos showing the techniques they use to test Gore-Tex products:

Footwear Testing

Facility Tour

eVent vs. Gore-Tex Demo

How to Care for Gore-Tex Products
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#124422 - 11/25/09 07:50 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: Kent W]
CWF Offline
member

Registered: 08/22/06
Posts: 266
I take it you have never tried eVENT.

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#124448 - 11/26/09 03:12 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: CWF]
Woubeir Offline
member

Registered: 03/24/06
Posts: 22
Whether he has tried it or not, the pure fact that the information is from a disputed source (W.L. Gore in this case)makes that any information is regarded as suspect (informative or not).
Fortunately, there as much in the design as in the materials being used. And there's currently no design that I like so they make it easy on me. So I keep on waiting (because I can).

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