So, I am planning a camping trip with my girlfriend at the beginning of December. I imagine she will freeze in the 20 degree temps. I was looking online and have researched some Sterling engines. They are intended to be used as stove fans, but I had a bright idea. Hopefully you all will tell me just how bright it is <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

How effective do you think it would be to take some rocks and leave them in your campfire for period of time, then close to bedtime, wrap them in foil, and set the Sterling engine on top inside your tent? We've used hot rocks to heat the tent this fall, but I was wondering if it might be more effective with the Sterling engine. I look forward to your speculations! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

In my experience, I hope you're car camping because there is no way, again in my experience, to heat a tent safely and reliably. The best way I've come across is a propane heater, but you have to vent the tent which is counter productive, not to mention to keep you alive. So, if you're backpacking, a good clothing system, fire, sleeping bag and maybe some chemical heater packs/hot water bottle is the answer. Some wine, at the right moment, might help.

The Sterling engine fan I think you're referring to is intended to circulate the air over a wood stove. It requires a higher temperature than you're likely to get from a hot rock. At best all it will do is move air around. BTW make sure rocks you put in a fire are dry. Rocks with water trapped inside can explode with surprising force.

There are little backpacking stoves you can get from one of the site sponsors, Titanium Goat. They are designed to be used with their pyramid tents.

Instead of fooling around with hot rocks and some gizmo, why not just get a warm bag and some warm clothes? I get cold easily and that is what I have-Down bag, down parka, insulated pants, warm socks, gloves, etc.

There are plenty of suggestions in the Winter Forum.

Thanks for bringing me back to practicality Tom. I'm a maintenance engineer so I tend to overthink solutions <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I'll take a look over at the winter forum and see if there is something more there. Thanks again!

The only safe way is to fill a lexan (leak proof) botttle with hot water & slide it into the sleeping bag. Gives you body temp water in the morning to get the oatmeal ready quicker.

You are camping with your girlfriend, and you don't know how to keep her warm at night?

Well, anyways, lets assume that putting hot rocks from a fire in your tent is a good idea. (I will leave that one up to you.) It is more efficient to just use the rocks. They are the source of heat. The more "things" between you and source, the less you get. Energy is always lost in the system.

Personally, I have never had a problem keeping my wife warm while camping.

Hey now! This is a family site. But I must say, the one time I had early symtoms of hypothermia, I was with someone who literally radiated so much heat, she would sleep with her bag half unzipped most of the time. I was shivering pretty badly and I was in a mummy bag.

After a bit of a snuggle (and, ahem, nothing more), I was fine after a while. BTW, this is a recommended treatment, no matter who you are with, so choose your companions wisely. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Well, I did buy a double sleeping bag for a reason...and it wasn't cause I like to carry an extra 12 lbs on a hike <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I tend to run hot...I'm the guy who just bought his first winter coat in 10 years and it's only because I'm going camping. I planned on being most of the heat <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Seriously though, I followed some advice on the winter boards and bought us some expedition weight thermals. I think that will make a difference from our past experiences this fall. Also I was going to give some wool mitts a shot, after boiling them. Do any of you have experiences, good or bad, with them? Also, I was thinking about using a latex medical gloves as a barrier in between the wool and a thermal liner...Wicker's brand if that matters. Do you think we'd see a problem with too much moisture kept in?

I use my UCO candle lantern. I have sierra designs lightening tent. It keeps it above freezing in there and provides light all night long. I hang it a few inches from the top with a reflector to point the heat back down. Also makes a nice cozy ambient light source.

Doug

I'll second the Nalgene bottle idea. Since I already have the stove, the bottle and the water all it takes is a little extra fuel. Before I doze off I'll lie on my back and place the bottle between my legs at mid thigh. That warms up the big femoral arteries and spreads the warmth all over my body. Ahhhhh.........it keeps me 79% warmer.

The bottle stays warm well into the night.

This system carries no fire or CO risk. Just remember to keep the lid tight.

Hey, what's the deal? When I did that, it only kept me 59% warmer. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Warming a tent is very, very inefficient. Not only is there too much air inside that needs to be warmed, but you'll lose heat to conductivity almost as fast as you distribute it against the thin nylon fabric of the roof and walls. Tents are far worse insulated than a snow cave!

The sensible thing to do is to insulate yourself, using clothes, hat, gloves, sleeping bag, and so on. The hot water bottle idea is an oldie and a goodie. The snuggling idea is even older and better tested, plus it meets with near-universal approval from those who try it. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Hence the Aborigine expression "three dog night" (also a famous band from the very late 60's-70's for all you kids out there). Still around, according to their website.

It is well known fact that "snuggling" on the other had, will keep you 92.4 per cent warmer <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Camping trip over, and wouldn't you know, we survived without heating the tent! I had never been cold weather camping before so I was a little worried about freezing. Everything went well, despite the 2 full days of rain, and the following day of snow. 2 days of rain makes clothing really wet...and a day of snow means water freezes... It was quite comical to see me melting my frozen pants by the fire in my thermals.

On a side note, I definately learned my lesson about making a gear checklist. I forgot one of the more important conveniences...a bic lighter <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I got to learn the pros and cons of using my backup magnesium/flint bar. It's hard to get wet wood to burn with it!

As in their 'Black & White' album <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

MistaBrown:

Glad to hear the trip went fine -- and warm. Was it the thermals that made the difference? What brand were they? What were the temps at night?

BTW, what's that about boiling the wool gloves? We don't have any sheep -- or wool gloves -- down here in Florida, so that passed me by..,

.

I'll second a candle or candle lantern, at least in very cold weather. It won't warm the tent
up to shirtsleeves of course, but it will cut the chill, and what I've found most importantly, if you
leave one burning you get enough warmth and air movement in bitter cold through the tent
with the candle exhausting the top that you get *far* less condensation inside at night without
having the tent open and vented *as much*.

OTOH I do lots in a larger wall tent with a bigger wood stove. That's stylin to the max, you can
be in your shirt sleeves in 30 below while it's going, and you can dry out anything soaked.

I have my Eye on a tigoat stove at the moment, but havent bitten and ordered one yet because
I still have notions of making one.

Only one truly reliable, safe way to heat a tent (well, only one g-rated way). Dogs!

The first two nights were 35-40 degrees F. The third was 10 degrees. Definately the thermals made the difference. We had gone camping before on 40 degree nights and were miserably cold. The only change were the thermals and the closed cell pads. The thermals were Wickers brand. My other layers were of old winter clothes, so I think the breathability suffered, so on a couple hikes I got quite sweaty. The coat I also got had terrible ventilation, but was also terribly warm. I think though if it had been colder I would have had some trouble considering how much I was sweating on some of the hikes. The thermals did a very good job getting the moisture away from my skin though, and I spent the coldest morning in just the thermals while my pants were thawing <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

About the wool gloves and boiling... I have read here that some people like to boil the wool gloves and then wear them as they cool. As I understand it, it is to give them a closer fit and also to tighten up the stitch, to increase wind and water resistance. I had ordered some of the Wickers brand liners and they worked very well keeping my hands dry, with wool fingerless mittens.

I little piece of info that I discovered by accident...I was working on my mother's brakes over Thankgiving, which was a 20 degree day, and I was using the nitrile mechanics rubber gloves. Surprisingly my hands were very warm for only having that thin rubber glove on. I thought on my camping trip I would try the liners, with the nitrile gloves over them, then the mitts over those. I went so far as to submerge my hand up to the wrist in the lake we got our water from. Even while swirling my hand around for approx. 5 minutes, I never felt any cold on my hands or fingers. It worked out very well considering we spent 2 of the days soaking wet. Also, sweat or moisture was not a problem with the liners inside the rubber gloves. 3.99 for 500 gloves is a good deal, considering I spent hours with dripping wet gloves without consequence. It would be nothing to bring 3-4 extra pair in case of tears...turned out to be a happy accident <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Years ago I was camping with a group. An older guy put a rock in the fire and later took it out and wrapped it in a towel. He said he put it in the bottom of his bag to keep warm.

Young and stupid, I put a big rock in the fire. Got so hot it broke in two! I put one half in a thin towel and trugged off to bed. Long story short, I moved it from my feet to my side due to scorching temps, then moved it outside because it was WAY to hot. In the AM I woke up and found a charred towel covering the rock and a hole melted in the bag where I put it at my side.

Moral of the story, he who stows hot rock can get burned! (or at least his bag can). Sure am glad I put it outside the tent! Would have melted a nice hole in the floor.
<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

That's pretty funny <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I've heard about the hot rocks but I've never tried it. Almost all the old timers here say they did that when they were kids. Must be an art to getting the rock just the right amount of hot.

Bill

What a great follow-up!

Sounds like she really toughed it out. Good for her!

As someone who's getting close to an old timer, I should tell you, girlfriends that still talk to you, and still like you, after taking them on a camping trip like that are almost always worth promoting to wives (if they'll accept the offer). I really believe that.

Here's how I looked at it, I always asked a date if they liked camping...

If they said "I would never do that", we were done.

If they had to bring hairspray, we were done.

If they had to be near a flush toilet and a hot shower, and especially a mirror, we were done.

If we made it that far and they still talked to me after giving it a try, I'd keep dating.

If they still liked me after a few trips (especially one like yours)... well, there was one, and I was done after that. I knew I'd got lucky. Really lucky.

My wife doesn't go backpacking with me now but we still go camping and hiking and canoeing, and every now and then she'll insist I get out and spend some time in the forest. She just knows when I need that. Ya really gotta love a woman like that...

So, are you done yet?

Bill

After going on quite a few trips now with more experienced cold weather campers, I've got some really good advice...

Most have suggested to never use an artificial source to heat yourself when camping in winter. It tells your body it can stop making heat, and in the middle of the night when your heat source is gone, you won't be ready to make your own heat. It mkes sense to me, and I have been sleeping just as warm as before, even when I went on a "freeze" and camped out in 15 degree temps without shelter. I was overly warm actually, just by making sure I ate something right before bed and I didn't spend too much time near a campfire.

No, we are still growing strong. Everything is great, and she even asked me a couple weeks ago if we could go camping again. I think we have a convert! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

We are going to have a chance for one more winter trip, and we are gonna go backpacking this time. It's something she hasn't done, everything has just been a short hike in at most. In fact, yesterday we went and walked a 4 mile trail with our packs to see how she would take a hike with gear. She seems pretty excited about it. I was asking her as we walked how she thinks she would like a cross country trip, which is a goal of mine. She said that maybe after a couple seasons of camping in different weather she would enjoy that.

And just so you guys know, she's all mine <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

And the "old timers" slept on wool blankets, not easy-to-melt nylon. The way I remember using hot rocks was by burying them under a thin layer of soil. Then you slept on top of that. Don't thrash too much in your sleep though - if you scrape the soil off a rock you'll know pretty darn quick!

Added Thought: I'd better say this before someone else does - DON'T DO THIS! It's definitely not LNT since the hot rocks will cause sterile zones in the ground. Definitely don't do this in forest duff - you might start a forest fire and not even know it. If you are on duff, you really have no business starting a fire anyway unless it's in an approved fire ring.

What Nity said; and Bill you ARE such a lucky man! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

MistaBrown,

Trappers and aboriginal peoples build a long fire, let it burn down, then cover it with a few inches of soil and sleep on top of it. It would be easy to set up a tarp over it.

On overnight ski trips on snow I have used a Whelen nylon lean-to with fire in front of it. It is real luxury to warm your feet, socks, and boots by the fire. If your prepare wood ahead of time it is easy to wake every 3 hours or so and add some wood.

A great source for winter camping info is www.wintertrekking.com
Unfortunately, someone hacked the site a while back for who knows what reason and wrecked the site. They hope to get it back up in a while. It is really a shame because that site was by far the best source for traditional cold weather camping tips, gear tests, you name it. Several members here besides me belong to it so if you guys are wondering what happened, that's the answer.

There is some info about the hack and the site owners' attempts to get it back online on www.bushcraftusa.com

I went snow cave camping last year and with a really good all synthetic sleeping bag and a flannel liner I was warm down to 4 degrees, BUT the getting up in the morning was a killer diller. I brought a change of shoes. Boots for day use and small rubber sock type for camp site use. In the morning I put a couple of heat packs in the boots, when the boots were warm and toasty I put the heat packs in my pants back pocket.

Home is where the heart is, it does not have to be a house.

I used a Whelan type rig and a fire on a cold Northern Arizona backpack. It was quite nice.

I think I have a clue, but anyone know where I can view a photo of a "Whelan" type rig?

I am assuming it's set up kind of like this, from a side view. The "L" would be a person sitting inside the rig, and "#" would be the fire in front of it:

    ^
  /   \
 /
/  L        #

That's it. In a more elaborate version, you will have a backstop/reflector for the fire,making it even more cozy.

Would the MSR Fast Stash tent be an example of a Whelan-style tent?

http://cascadedesigns.com/en/msr/tents/essential-series/fast-stash/product

glenn,

The tent you reference is a step in the right direction. I like how you can hang out under the canopy but out of the tent. The Whelen design looks more like a closed version of the canopy of this tent alone. It was designed after WW I. Your design looks very versatile.

Just remember that being close to the fire ensures you'll get holes melted in your nylon shelter from sparks (inevitable in bad weather when the wood is wet). If it's silnylon, which is flammable, even worse. I assume that cuben also melts at low temps, but I would never put a $500 investment anywhere near a fire anyway!

I consider it to be an "embellished" Whelan. Just the fly alone would be the classic Whelan, as I understand it. But that would be a cheaper tent, without as much profit?

I believe Whelans are typically used with open fires for cooking and especially warming. The tent wall in the MSR example would defeat the purpose of a warming fire.

A classic Whelan is made of cotton canvas and plays nicely with an open fire. Not so with modern synthetics.

Why on earth did they put a picture of a mannequin using the bathroom in this tent on their site?


http://cascadedesigns.com/images/product/large/Fast_Stash_4_.jpg

I suppose emitting warm greenhouse gases is another way to warm up a tent...

billstephenson,

Just google Whelen lean-to. Most of the commercial versions are canvas 9 lb.s too heavy to carry, but perfect for a canoe or top pack on a mule. There are several designs to make one out of light materials.

Wow, hadn't noticed that. I better check out the pictures for my Carbon Reflex - maybe it has some features I wasn't aware of! (Seems a shame to dig a hole through that nice nylon floor, though.)

Thirds on that - easier than hot rocks. and works well.

Make sure you have a good bag and baselayer, and wear something on your head and face. (I love my bank robber balaclava)

Add that to *eat stuff* right before you go to bed. don't eat supper at 6 pm, then go to sleep at 9. have a good snack before turning in, you'll be warmer.

If you're a guy. have a pee bottle. Freezing to get out of your bag in subzero temperatures when you don't have to is well... silly.

I do have a small hot tent rig, (a small homemade wood stove with tigoat pipe in a modified golite shangri-la 3) and a couple of large canvas wall tents with airtight heaters. They are nice to warm up and dry gear in. they are no substitute for a good sleeping bag. No tent stove will keep you warm all night for any reasonable sized tent/stove. A good bag and a a nalgene full of hot water will.

could always pack a couple 'hot hands' type chem heaters. pack easy and no mess/danger. I've thrown one down in my foot box before, makes a big difference.

One caveat to the hot bottle: this may not work with a hydration bladder. Many carry specific warnings not to put boiling water in them.