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#77537 - 08/24/07 05:31 PM Re: Closing remarks [Re: brobin]
Paul_C Offline
member

Registered: 07/14/05
Posts: 506
Loc: Beaverton, Orygun
The way I see it, if someone wants to lug their double burner stove, leave their tent unstaked (Eagle Creek is a very deep gorge, with rarely any wind BTW), and leave their clothes strung out, why not?

Plus that trail you were on, about 2.5 miles up is a very popular swimming hole and seeing people lugging coolers up, in flip flops, and even bikinis.

I really hate to think that you have this view of everyone you meet, not just people on the trail that you come across, but you really came across quite negative. If you were closer, I'd give you a hug. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
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Jeeper - NW mountain roamer

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#77538 - 08/28/07 01:20 AM Re: Ul & Mainstream [Re: JimM_PA]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada

Heh, actually, so did I. and I managed to leave vegas just in time to avoid the flash floods. Saw lizards and Burros - which to a canadian is pretty cool and different <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
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Winter list.
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#77539 - 09/05/07 01:53 PM Re: Ul & Mainstream [Re: MattnID]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
Quote:
I fail to see how having only been on this forum for a short time makes any difference to anything. It doesn't mean automatically that this person's opinion is any less valid than anyone else's.I for example, only have 21 posts on this forum after this has been posted, yet I've been backpacking since I was sixteen. I'm not exactly new at this. I take it as an insult that you would simply look down on what someone says based on the amount of posts someone has made. I doubt I'm the only person who thinka that that kind of arrogance isn't necessary on this forum and a step in the wrong direction.

What does that say to someone who is new to backpacking and they come on here and see some "purist" giving some person crap simply because they haven't been around the forum as long as they have? No wonder people want to go and buy books rather than ask someone the information when they see people who seem to want to horde and "protect" the sport of backpacking for "purists" alone.


As 'tongue in cheek' as some of my posts may be, let it be known that my intent is to make sure whoever is asking the question can return from their trip to ask another. I agree with the quote above; and try to discern a questioner's previous experience by the tone and wording of their post. In no way is anyone on this forum superior to anyone else because of their number of (or lack thereof) of posts. It all boils down to posters coming clean with their line of questioning so that those trying to help them can do so without being too long winded.

Iin closing I'd like to say that Mugs has a right to his opinion here, and though the majority of the posters are against him, he has the right to his opinion. If he believes the 'sellouts' in the UL cottage industries are doing so for 'mass market profits' that's his right to state.

Remember, just because someone can afford a Porsche does'nt mean they actually will ever drive it at it's limits <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> If I had a dollar for every clean 4 wheel drive I see on the road I'd be rich. Just because folks buy gas guzzling suvs and 4 wheel drive trucks does'nt mean the majority of them will ever see real dirt. We'll just have to be hopeful that when the masses experience back country failures with their tissue paper tarps, drafty quilts, and tippy hammocks; they'll be more inclined to stay close to the trailheads <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
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PEPPER SPRAY AIN'T BRAINS IN A CAN!

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#77540 - 09/05/07 02:06 PM Re: Ul & Mainstream [Re: tarbubble]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
Quote:
i resent mainstream stores like Albertson's, Target & Wal-Mart carrying organic items. for years I had to special-order organic cotton items at astronomical prices online or through catalogs. now any old slob can stroll into Wal-Mart and get organic cotton bedsheets for 50 lousy bucks! i can get an organic cotton t-shirt for $10! argh, what's this world coming to?

i used to have to wait for the farmer's market or else drive way out of my way to get organic produce, and forget about getting any good snack or convenience foods that were made from healthy ingredients. now, i can buy organic wheat crackers, milk, fruit leather, nuts and all manner of food while i'm at Target getting my toilet paper! and so can anybody else! this is horrible!

i liked it better back when i was the only one who knew about good nutrition and planet-friendly food & clothing selections. and if nobody ever came to me looking for advice on how to eat healthier, then they didn't deserve to know! now all of a sudden the mainstream media has caught wind of MY standards and is letting everybody else know about them! people are writing BOOKS about vegetarianism and natural eating and ways to leave a smaller impact on the planet! you can get these books at any old corporate bookstore!

this really chaps my hide. whatever happened the purity and exclusivity of buying organic? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />


How about being a small scale farmer and having ADM go 'organic' <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> Now THAT chaps MY hide <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> 'All of a sudden' local grocery stores ALL have 'organic' foods with their names on the labels <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> This BS is confusing the consumer, just like big AG wants it. What with 'natural', 'organic', 'pure', 'farm fresh' being
tossed around like so many over used words these days I'm surprised there ae still any family farms left in the USA <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Unless you're buying directly from a farmer it's not 'farm fresh' thank you. I can tell you how many days old an ear of corn is just by picking it up. 'Organic' certification takes years, so having the market flooded with 'organic' products in just the past few years seems a bit odd to me; especially when said produce is being brought in from outside the Country.

Buy Local, support the health of your family and your local farmland! I'll get down off my haybale now <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
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PEPPER SPRAY AIN'T BRAINS IN A CAN!

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#77541 - 09/05/07 02:15 PM Re: Closing remarks [Re: leadfoot]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
Quote:
OMG! That campsite looks familiar... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> wait...no, could it be...??? MINE??? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Wait...No!!! Wait...that's a photo of ME!!!! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

OMG!!!! I look pretty good. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


I thought so too <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
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#77542 - 09/05/07 02:17 PM Re: Closing remarks [Re: bigfoot2]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
Quote:
As a Grocery Manager that works at an Albertsons market , i beg to differ. The dollars you spend are used to pay local peoples salaries and will eventually be reinvested into the community that the store is located in by the employees that need car parts , clothing , housing or even backpacking equipment. Also , whenever possible , Albertsons buys from locally owned companies , including produce and seafood . I recently went to a local 4-H auction and bought/donated a whole cow to a family in need in a rural area...how many local markets can say they donate 5 million dollars per division / year locally to charity through food programs and special events as well as just plain gifts ? I say that if you really want to help people in your area , shop where your neighbors work...be it Albertsons or Wal-Mart ( that hurt but i said it ! ) , or at a local market if that is all that is available in your town. Your neighbors will thank you for it when they keep recieving their paychecks !


Hey, could you please call the Albertson's over in NJ and have them drop me a cow off? Farm budgets' been a wee tight lately and it seems all the cows went off to market but forgot to let me know they were going! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
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#77543 - 09/05/07 10:03 PM Re: Ul & Mainstream [Re: Earthling]
tarbubble Offline
member

Registered: 04/18/03
Posts: 996
Loc: ca-li-for-ni-a
my response was totally tongue-in-cheek.

YES, Big Ag is not necessarily something i want to support. however, all farms, even big ol' "corporate" farms, have humans working on them and living near (downstream from) them. i will support organic farming with my dollars, even if the standards for "organic" get weakened - that's an issue that activist groups need to fight about. i do the best i can with what i have available here. to me, organic isn't about just feeding my family safer (hopefully) food, it's about improving the health of everybody who has to work with that food. my grandfather suffered from parkinson's for more than a decade, and there's heavy evidence that pesticides either cause or contribute to the disease. they just plain ain't good for anybody.

so i look at organic farming the same way i look at information & knowledge. it's good for everybody. and the statistics (if you can believe them) are showing that fewer and fewer people are visiting our wild places. so let's get those slobs on the trail and teach by example, but if they actually want to BUY A BOOK on the subject, then God bless them.

so yes, buy local. reduce the pollution & waste caused when food has to travel a long way. problem is, here in dense SoCal, the "local" farmers just keep getting farther & farther away....

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#77544 - 09/05/07 11:57 PM Re: Closing remarks [Re: Earthling]
Xelif Offline
member

Registered: 07/04/07
Posts: 241
Loc: Bay Area, California, USA
There was a time when 90% of the human population had to raise crops in order to survive. With technology (not just pesticides, but all of the agricultural developments), that percentage drops to about 1%. This frees up 89% of the population to do useful things other than farming, such as writing books, becoming doctors, going hiking, making computers, posting on internet forums, and getting into quibbles about farming practices <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Just saying, mass agriculture has its place. Fewer and fewer farmers does not necessarily mean fewer crops produced, and modern agriculture has produced a society where you don't have to work in farming unless you choose to, rather than because you must eat.

I prefer the organic approach, myself, as do many of us. Keep in mind, however, that someone who's starving might not care about such niceties as pesticides killing the eagles. Only once you have enough food can you take care of the environment.
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#77545 - 09/06/07 10:28 AM Re: Closing remarks [Re: Xelif]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
Xelif I agree with your post in part that people have to eat and it matters not where it comes from...to an extent. But it becomes much more of a political issue once Big AG controls the marketplace is what I was inplying.

Safe food begins with safe farming practices <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
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#77546 - 09/07/07 08:48 AM Re: Closing remarks [Re: Earthling]
Xelif Offline
member

Registered: 07/04/07
Posts: 241
Loc: Bay Area, California, USA
Quote:

Safe food begins with safe farming practices <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />


I have to agree with you, of course. I'm sure we both could go on about how Big Ag + the government aren't exactly fair.

Speaking of safe farming practices - my tomatoes are finally ripening <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
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- John

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#77547 - 09/07/07 09:33 AM Re: Closing remarks [Re: Xelif]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
We're almost nearing the end of our tomato season here in NJ, though it was a banner year for most everyone.

Remember if you wrap those Fall green ones up in newspaper to check them every few days to make sure they're not spoiling. I just wipe the tomatoes' surface down with a handy wipe that's been wrung out after having been dipped in a dilute solution of water and bleach. I've found it keeps the spoilage to 10% or less through to January <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
PEPPER SPRAY AIN'T BRAINS IN A CAN!

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#77548 - 09/07/07 10:07 AM Re: Closing remarks [Re: Earthling]
Xelif Offline
member

Registered: 07/04/07
Posts: 241
Loc: Bay Area, California, USA
Ahh, useful tidbits like that are one reason I love this forum! We don't get enough light at the house, and it looks like we might have a few greenies left over. At least it doesn't frost here for months, if ever. Thanks Earthling <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
- John

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#77549 - 09/07/07 11:15 AM Re: Closing remarks [Re: Xelif]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
Your welcome Felix, just remember you can always pan saute up the green ones that you decide might not make the storage. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
PEPPER SPRAY AIN'T BRAINS IN A CAN!

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#77550 - 09/09/07 11:46 PM Re: Closing remarks [Re: cameraboy]
haikublue Offline
member

Registered: 04/29/07
Posts: 205
Loc: Berkeley, California
hey...slow your ro...last month that was me...zip off pants, bandana...no shower...and one set of clothes...and I sent myself a razor in a resupply...and realized there was no shower to make use of it. It was a gift to everyone I wasn't in a bikini! Those zip off pants stayed zipped on...covering my hairy legs! hahahaha!

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#77551 - 09/12/07 09:57 AM Re: Ul & Mainstream [Re: tarbubble]
Paul_C Offline
member

Registered: 07/14/05
Posts: 506
Loc: Beaverton, Orygun
"Big Ag" is one of the reasons America is as rich as it is, and that you can spend your time hiking and seeking out organic foods. Historically, without investing in agriculture universities and without the advances that it gave us, and the efficiencies that investment gave us, we would likely not be in the place we are today. In fact, our surplus gave us the ability to pretty much feed the world after WW1.

I'm glad you say 'even if the standards for "organic" get weakened', and realize that everyone cannot eat organic. The land cannot sustain organic farming for such a large population. I agree with you though, i wish they would clean up the use of the pesticides they do have to use, for the benefit of the workers and the communities around those farms.
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Jeeper - NW mountain roamer

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#77552 - 09/17/07 03:44 AM Re: Ul & Mainstream [Re: mugs]
hootyhoo Offline
member

Registered: 12/14/06
Posts: 686
Loc: Cyberspace
I first saw BPL two years ago and it was obvious to me that there was some good marketing involved with that organization. They must employ the Karl Rove of light packing in their maketing department. I was looking for learning materials and bought the book- disappointed. Looked at the site- they will not get my money. Checked out Bozeman Mountain -come on! Who knows for sure that Ryan is really a Doctor? A doctor of what? Save your money and stay away is all I have to say. And as for the 'who gets bought out' in the manufacturing world-- they all get bought out or get too big and loose sight. But thats okay, because there always seems to be another company coming along that will fill the gap. I bet Golite will the next one to get grow big enough to be snatched up. If you can't beat your competition, buy 'em. And yes you might see more people because light is easier. I was a climber, until Stallone's movie, Cliffhanger. Then that sport got overcrowded. They built a big fancy fly fishing store up by the smoky mountains and now if you want to fish there you have to bring your own rock so that you will have a place to stand. How many commercials are there with fly rods or kayaks? Whitewater is so overcrowded now that I sold both my boats. The day you see someone lighting a cat stove on an insurance commercial-- you will know its over. It will be like Disney world out there. So to those people that support companies like BPL, thanks alot. When it gets overcrowded and popular you can thank yourselves.

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#77553 - 09/17/07 08:27 AM Re: Ul & Mainstream [Re: hootyhoo]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Quote:
The day you see someone lighting a cat stove on an insurance commercial-- you will know its over. It will be like Disney world out there. So to those people that support companies like BPL, thanks alot. When it gets overcrowded and popular you can thank yourselves.


I dunno, speaking as someone who spends time around banff/kaninaskis - yes, the close stuff is "disney world" overrun with tourons. - but to use an example from just this weekend in Kaninaskis... Car camping, mobbed. 8 km in at forks (flat all the way) about 4 sites in use out of 15 on saturday. A few people there. After forks (12 clicks more, with some nice serious elevation gain..) and up to Turbine Canyon.. Not a soul around... nobody - silence, mountains, wind, and glaciers...

I'm reminded of the grandma gatewood quote seen on someones sig here. "Most people are pantywaists" - Yes! they are. and no amout of marketing is going to change that. If anything marketing curries to peoples innate slacker rather than encouraging them to get off their tushes.

As long as mainstream gear marketing is balanced against the marketing of Coca Cola, Fast Food, and Video Games, all you'll need is a little elevation gain or distance..
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Any fool can be uncomfortable...
My 3 season gear list
Winter list.
Browse my pictures


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#77554 - 09/17/07 09:57 AM Re: Ul & Mainstream [Re: phat]
Hector Offline
member

Registered: 12/20/04
Posts: 325
Loc: LA/ARK/TX corner
Quote:
I'm reminded of the grandma gatewood quote seen on someones sig here. "Most people are pantywaists" - Yes! they are. and no amout of marketing is going to change that. If anything marketing curries to peoples innate slacker rather than encouraging them to get off their tushes.


Run out and tell a dozen people about lightweight backpacking. How many of them will decide to take it up? Heck, most people I know don't even go camping, much less walk a mile from a campsite to look around.

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#77555 - 09/17/07 11:02 AM Re: Ul & Mainstream [Re: Hector]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Quote:

Run out and tell a dozen people about lightweight backpacking. How many of them will decide to take it up? Heck, most people I know don't even go camping, much less walk a mile from a campsite to look around.


I don't think I've ever had anyone interested based on looking at gear commercials.

OTOH, posting my pictures in big old albums has had a few freinds who look at them ask me to take them out - the result being I haven't been alone alone much this season - But that's my choice. I can say no.
_________________________
Any fool can be uncomfortable...
My 3 season gear list
Winter list.
Browse my pictures


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#77556 - 09/23/07 04:40 PM Re: Ul & Mainstream -- HYOH applies [Re: mugs]
Coosa Offline
member

Registered: 03/11/02
Posts: 115
Loc: NorthGA to LowerAL
[color:"green"]She who dies with the fewest and lightest toys wins!

Or

He who dies with the fewest and lightest toys wins!

The reality of living in the USofA is that we have the freedom to lead our own lives pretty much any (legal) way we want. (And there are those who say you can live illegally as well, but that's not the topic of this discussion.) We have the freedom to invent anything that hasn't already been patented or copyrighted. The future is wide open to us. And we have the right to do what we will with our inventions.

Isn't that the essence of Hike Your Own Hike?

I might not necessarily make the same decisions as someone else, but I'm not that person's conscience, parent, sibling, or child, so that person's decision is entirely his own and so are the consequences. A perfect example of HYOH.

I do understand your frustration, yet I encourage you to "let it go" and not let it influence your life. I've had similar frustrations with the way things happen -- small companies being taken over by larger companies and not letting the public know -- companies going overseas to "assemble" items made in the USofA because it's less expensive -- clothing made everywhere except the USofA. Trying to "Buy American" isn't as easy now as it was 25 years ago and that frustrates me and makes me into a more careful customer.

There's a Country Song by Bucky Covington http://tinyurl.com/35pb6c which states in the refrain:
It was a different life
When we were boys and girls
Not just a different time
It was a different world
http://tinyurl.com/3ah5m5

And it was. I'm 63 in another couple of weeks. I can't compare "today" to "when I was young" because just about everything is different now. Not always an improvement, but totally different. Just like my grandparents who were children before there were automobiles, electricity in every home, and indoor plumbing, yet who lived to fly on a jet plane in their senior years. Who would have ever thought that life (as we know it) would change so dramatically in the course of 75 years or so? From horse and buggy through Henry Ford's assembly line to autos made using robotics in one lifetime.

My best advice is to just "go with the flow" and enjoy the ride. Swimming upstream will definitely wear you down physically and mentally.

Take care of yourself (and I mean that sincerely), Coosa[/color] <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#77557 - 09/25/07 06:45 AM Re: Ul & Mainstream -- True Wilderness kinda [Re: hootyhoo]
Coosa Offline
member

Registered: 03/11/02
Posts: 115
Loc: NorthGA to LowerAL
Quote:
The day you see someone lighting a cat stove on an insurance commercial-- you will know its over. It will be like Disney world out there. So to those people that support companies like BPL, thanks alot. When it gets overcrowded and popular you can thank yourselves.


[color:"blue"]I just got back from canoeing in BWCA (Boundary Waters Canoe Area) near Ely, MN. If you want wilderness, I suggest going there. They do have restrictions and you pay for a permit, like you must use their campsites (which are not overcrowded due to being only the size for one to three tents and they have an 'open throne potty system'). The rangers do patrol frequently to ensure no one is causing havoc in the still nearly pristine waters. However, it's truly a "wild" experience. (No bear or moose, but saw eagles and beaver and a northern bluejay.) <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

My point is: If where you like to go becomes to crowded, find another place to go. Or go in the "off" season. I'm going to winter kayak at Land Between the Lakes, TN, later this year. I imagine there won't be too much traffic out there. And if there is, I won't let it spoil my kayaking experience.

Maybe my second point is: Everything evolves. Nothing is static. And at the same time, once "too many" people get into backpacking (if indeed they do it more than once or twice a year), it will no longer be the "novelty" and some new activity will catch the eye of the masses who will exchange a backpack for something else (let's hope they've learned LNT or LVLT -- VL= very little). Then, we'll have the backpacking trails all to ourselves again.

I just don't think there's going to be a herd of touronic people hiking the entire length of any trail. And if they do, they'll be just like the Appalachian Trail hikers who end their "thru hike" at Suches or Neel Gap (Blairsville).

Go with the flow and think about running for Public Office. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Coosa <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> [/color]

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#77558 - 10/20/07 01:47 PM Re: Ul & Mainstream [Re: mugs]
JudgeSails Offline
member

Registered: 09/10/07
Posts: 35
There's enough crap going on in the world to worry about what distribution outlets are being used by some small potatoes author. Beside the fact that he probably didn't have any say in the distribuition your elitist attitude does more harm to the hobby than 12 boyscouts dropping trau and pinching the subsequent loaf upstream of your camp at suppertime.

If that is keeping you up at night I think you and your wife can find a new goal because you need a pretty darn simplified lifestyle for that to even crack the top 25 for most people.


Edited by JudgeSails (10/21/07 07:23 AM)
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#77559 - 10/22/07 01:14 PM Re: Ul & Mainstream [Re: mugs]
Tomcat1066 Offline
member

Registered: 10/04/07
Posts: 31
Loc: Albany, GA
If the trail I was on this past weekend is any indication, there's absolutely no risk of ultralight being to "mainstream". Heck, the vast majority of the other backpackers were still using external frames, and I had the only frameless pack out there that I could see. Just because a book is available to the masses, doesn't mean they'll actually read it after all...they're probably prefer to wait for the movie <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Tom

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#77560 - 10/22/07 01:51 PM Re: Ul & Mainstream [Re: Tomcat1066]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Hey, that is what I am doing. Waiting for the movie. Well, ok, I am just waiting for a library copy so I don't have to buy it. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
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#77561 - 12/26/07 11:59 AM Re: Ul & Mainstream [Re: mugs]
chaz Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Tennessee
I have to say, after reading the entire thread that it was one of the most entertaining things I've done in days. Not to have the last word but my thoughts on the subject have been expressed several times by others and some by you.
Everytime I took an interest in a sport or activity it seemed everyone else was getting into it at the same time and crowding my deal, when in fact it wasn't my deal at all. I was just another perticipant. AS far as the Light weight backpacking idea. I was doing that when I was 12 years old. My dad would drop us off at a trailhead in Idaho where we lived at the time. I had a frame pack and sleeping bag and a piece of tarp, rope etc. My thinking now is Leave no trace or as little as necessary. If people want to do something they will. To what extent they get into it will depend on their desire. How they get into it will be by many different ways. I learned about this site through a simple search. Eventhough this is not a commercial venture it is the world wide web and accessable to all.
I think time will weed out the people that are not intent on becoming proficent at a craft and will not venture into trouble (hopefully) and be content with car camping a couple of times a year.
When I go fly fishing and people are lined up elbow to elbow in the stream, I find another place less accesable. As far as commercialism, there will be more goods on e-bay only slightly used.
Happy trails
_________________________
Enjoy your next trip...

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