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#77512 - 08/10/07 02:11 PM Re: Ul & Mainstream [Re: bigfoot2]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Oh my God what a thread. I thought I left all the self-important, dripping arrogance in the flight simulator forums.

OP, I literally just bought the Ryan Jordan book on (the HORROR!!!) Amazon.com. Even though I got the book from an evil, corporate website, at least I will now learn to stake my tent down properly--we are allowed to have tents right? Or is it tarps/bivies/1mm plastic only?

Do you know how FREAKIN' big the backcountry is? Here's a hint: it is a majority of the country. 10 million people could take up backpacking and you'd still have thousands of places to go and be by yourself, especially if you take an earlier poster's advice and get off the trail.

And not everyone who lightens their pack is automatically going to hike farther every day.

You really need to care less about what other people/corporations are doing and more on what makes you happy.

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#77513 - 08/10/07 02:48 PM Re: Ul & Mainstream [Re: mugs]
alanwenker Offline
member

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 812
The original post is so over the top I find it funny and pathetic at the same time. The very notion of wanting to keep ul out of the majority flies in the face of actually posting anything regarding ul on a web forum. Better to keep all the information secret, and to yourself, rather than share any information with anybody who has web access.

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#77514 - 08/10/07 06:31 PM Re: Ul & Mainstream [Re: bigfoot2]
mugs Offline
member

Registered: 12/24/05
Posts: 500
Loc: Spokane & Maple Valley, Wa
No, I just recieved my Ba, in History, with a minor in Political Science. I graduated Magna Cumme Laude all the while raising two boy and working as well <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> I am now getting my MA in education, and plan on teaching highschool, probably private or provocial. Then when the kids are out of the house I would like to go back and get my PHd in Social Political science. My long term goal is to teach college. As you can tell I love to discuss hot button topics so that is what I would like to teach professionally.
_________________________
I miss my 4.8lb base weight as a ground dweller. But I sure don't miss the ground.

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#77515 - 08/10/07 06:37 PM Re: Ul & Mainstream [Re: treeline]
mugs Offline
member

Registered: 12/24/05
Posts: 500
Loc: Spokane & Maple Valley, Wa
Oh trust me I get more worked up about other things than this type of stuff. Econmics, sustainabilty, un-fair practices, health care, the act that the "we" seem to think every one should live like us and have a democracy, instead of staying out of carp....my blood pressure is rising, I better stop.
_________________________
I miss my 4.8lb base weight as a ground dweller. But I sure don't miss the ground.

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#77516 - 08/10/07 09:03 PM Re: Ul & Mainstream [Re: mugs]
JimM_PA Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 90
Loc: PA
How would you grade this thread?
Jim

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#77517 - 08/10/07 11:43 PM Re: Ul & Mainstream [Re: mugs]
billk Offline
member

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 1196
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Quote:
"...and plan on teaching highschool, probably private or provocial."


I'm only a high school graduate, but I know a Freudian slip when I see it <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Edited by billk (08/10/07 11:44 PM)

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#77518 - 08/14/07 06:16 AM Re: Ul & Mainstream [Re: mugs]
cameraboy Offline
member

Registered: 12/01/06
Posts: 34
Last night as I was laying in bed thinking about the upcoming 2 nighter I'll be taking, I was pondering whether to bring my trail running shoes or waterproof boots. I debated the pros and cons in my head for awhile, then decided I would take a look at what an "expert" had to say. I rollled over and reached into my nightstand and pulled out a copy of Ryan Jordan's book and turned to the chapter on footwear.

Mugs, I feel the need to apologize. I know I should not be getting advice from a book available to anyone with an amazon account and 15 dollars. I'm sorry if I've offended you.

Feel free to let me know what you think in the boots vs. trail runner debate. Again, my mistake for thinking I could get some usefull advice from a book and not from you. Please don't be angry with me, I just didn't want sore feet on this trip.

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#77519 - 08/15/07 07:00 AM Re: Ul & Mainstream [Re: cameraboy]
mugs Offline
member

Registered: 12/24/05
Posts: 500
Loc: Spokane & Maple Valley, Wa
Ha ha very funny, <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Sorry, But you have missed the point about the thread. And if I have to explain it, you wouldn't understand it. Have a nice trip in your trail runners. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Edited by mugs (08/15/07 07:01 AM)
_________________________
I miss my 4.8lb base weight as a ground dweller. But I sure don't miss the ground.

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#77520 - 08/16/07 07:30 AM Re: Ul & Mainstream [Re: mugs]
cameraboy Offline
member

Registered: 12/01/06
Posts: 34
No, I didn't miss the point. You miss my point. I'M one of the people you seem to be railing against. I'm a person who is new to backpacking, and learning about it from the internet and Jordan's book.

I think you are wrong when you imply that if they make UL gear available to the masses, then the masses will invade and turn UL backpacking into a "pop" and crowded endeavor.

That's simiply not true. Nobody who didn't already want to walk 10-15 miles in a day is going to start doing it simply because there's lighter gear available.

As for corporations, most people are rotten. That's a fact. People are generally greedy. The distinction is that the level of greed differs from person to person. I like to support local, american made products when I can. I'll even pay more if it means supporting the little guy and thumbing my nose at a corporation. But do you really think that Henry Shires or the guy at Six Moons gives a [Edited for inappropriate languge, please review forum policies for more information] about me? Do you think they sew tents and bivy's for the sheer love of it? They are businesspeople doing something they find less offensive than office work to make a living. To make MONEY. I don't see Shires or anyone else selling their gear at cost.

If I call up one of these local or small business guys and say that my wife just had our first child, and my car broke down, but I really want to go backpacking, so can he cut me a deal and sell me a tarp tent at cost, they will probably tell me where I can go. And it's not to the Adirondacks.

If these little business people were so good, well, nobody is forcing them to "sell out" to larger corporations. They do it because they are in it to make money, and make money they shall.

So my point is, I try to buy locally and from small businesses for ME. Because I don't like corporatization any more than you do, and I don't like what corporations do to the environment, to local economies (Wal Mart), I don't like how they treat human beings, and I generally don't think much good ever happens when people group together.

People new to this activity, like myself, can now reach nearly the same level of UL-ness as you with just a few weeks of experimentation and research online and in print, and I'm sorry if that makes you feel bad. Although the skill to use light weight equipment still has to be learned through practice. Maybe you can console yourself by realizing that even though I read Jordan's book cover to cover several times, I still will need practice and experince to go UL safely and efficiently, and experience can't be purchased at WalMart.

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#77521 - 08/18/07 12:25 PM Re: Ul & Mainstream [Re: mugs]
lonewolf Offline
member

Registered: 01/23/05
Posts: 292
Loc: Oregon USA
Quote:
Moderators if you have any guts you will not edit, delete, or change this post

While out on a recent PCT section hike in Oregon, I was discussing with a friend the advantage of being light on the trail and how it allows us to get out past the Tourons. Which makes for a nice hike because of the fact that we can go further into the backcountry due to our lighter loads. Plus without a lot of gear we also leave a more eco-friendly and smaller footprint. We were discussing the fact that maybe backpacking is a dying breed as well. But I had to disagree some what, because I see more and more lightweight equipment in more mass media markets.
This quite frankly makes me upset. I like being light because (yes I’ll admit) there is a certain gloat factor in it. I like it because I can get away from the people because they can not get as far. I like it because they do not know about it and this gives me a window of opportunity to do my second favorite thing, which is, teach. I feel as if this is our own little world, and that membership is required. I like keeping it clandestine and cottage. We are a minority of elitist, a pure society, one who is eager to help when asked, one who is more aware and sensitive of the over populated back country areas. But one must come to us for the information; it is not easily accessible, until now.
Imagine my disgust when I saw Dr. Ryan Jordan’s book Lightweight Backpacking & Camping: A Field Guide to Wilderness Hiking Equipment, Technique, and Style at of all places the Wal-Mart for the outdoors REI. Before I go on and start getting flamed, and having people come back and say, well you were in REI so what does that make you? What was I doing at REI? Simple, living up to there Return Every Item policy and giving back to them something that had been sitting on my shelf for 3 years due to malfunction that is related to over engineering.
Getting back to my point. How dare you, Dr. Jordan. You are not allowing this book to be sold because you want to spread the gospel, you are beginning to do just what Jansport, Gregory, and Kelty did, they started out small but then sold out the corporate machine in the name of Money!!!! You Dr. Jordan have done the same thing in this case. I feel as if you are not desirous of teaching, or helping “Joe Snuffy” on how to go light. It is the thought of the potential selling power that comes to REI and their catering to the “Joe Snuffy’s” of the world. Not only will people buy your book (which I bought through BPL more than a year ago) but because of all the “gear plugs” in it they will then go to the BPL site and buy more of your products. A very crafty marketing scheme I must say so myself, but and evil and typical corporate one, none the less. You yourself said “My wife, Stephanie, and I have renewed our commitment not only to simplify our lifestyle, but to renew and engage the relationships with people we love the most-including each other.” (1) You are not doing this by selling out Dr. Jordan. If there is one thing I have learned from people who have money or are seeking money it is that there is never enough. I beg of Dr. Jordan keep your business and this industry pure like it has been and needs to be. Do not loose sight of the mission, the movement, and the people. Do not sell out like the predecessors before you did. Who now are out sourced and of cheap quality, or over engineered products to mainstream companies.
What is even more disheartening is in another section of the REI store I saw a ton of light my fire gear, and the once BPL only long handle Ti spoon, which ok I can understand that, it is readily available and not to industry specific, neither is the ESBIT and ESBIT stove that was in the same row either. But next to that were about 10 Vargo Titanium alcohol stoves and a quart can size of denatured alcohol. Outrage, I say, outrage. What is next will we se ULA, SMD, GG, MoGo and others in mainstream out-door stores?
Imagine with me people that the nest time you head out and go to you favorite get-away place that you know, no one else can ideally get to because it is too far, or is not very well known to begin with. You get there and there is another person there, with lightweight gear, that they were able to purchase at REI or some other mainstream outdoor store. Not only did they buy the gear there, but they got the information from there as well. They did not have to go through the “rites of passage” they did not have to dig, research, explore, and find the information and knowledge themselves, they bought it!!!! And now a once under populated area is now over populated, all because Ul went. mainstream. Also when Ul goes mainstream the cottage industries begin to loose their positions on the niche market and therefore leads to them having to close shop. Which then puts them out of an income and forces them back into corporate society, and we loose quality hand crafted (in most cases) equipment.
People I beg of you lets keep our sport, our world, our society pure, let us not cater to the cooperate world, allow us to teach them via the means we always have, lets keep from becoming them majority. Let us not loose sight of our intent and allow others to purchase our knowledge in a department store for the sake of making another buck.
KEEP IT PURE !!!!!!!


(1.) Jordan, Ryan Unfullfilled drams in the Western Artic. Backpacking Light, iss7 pg.53.2007


Disclaimer:. I do not care how much heat this brings, but this has been keeping me up at night, I felt as if I had to say something, even if I am only one voice.


With that attitude you would have made a great nazi.
Never befor have I read such snobbery, elitism, holier-than-thou, post that was laced with so much hypocracy.
You are going to have to learn to join your world with the real world or you will lose many a nights sleep as your utopian world simply does not exist outside of your fantasy.

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#77522 - 08/19/07 10:42 AM Re: Ul & Mainstream [Re: cameraboy]
mugs Offline
member

Registered: 12/24/05
Posts: 500
Loc: Spokane & Maple Valley, Wa
Ah Ha, so you do get it. And yes that is my fear, that the will be an onslaught of people out there. But I get your point and should view it a different way. That is, if they want to be out there they will, even if the gear is made readily available to them via, mass market. I liked your point about SMD. HS and such still trying to make a profit and not cutting you a deal (allthough I feel they would be more apt to then say "exploitation mart" ) I don't look down on you for learning the how to go light within a few weeks vs a few years like it took me. In fact I encourage it, that way it save the Bper time and money and less mistakes to happen on the trail. Within my teaching of it, to those who inquire, accomplishes the same thing except they are able to seen and learn more from a hands on than therory and then practice. but the task is still accomplished none the less, and more eficiantly. Look I have no idea why seeing Ryans book in REI along side some Ti acly stoves made so pissed of, but it just did. I guess I owe this forum an apology don't I. I should have listened to my wife on this one.
_________________________
I miss my 4.8lb base weight as a ground dweller. But I sure don't miss the ground.

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#77523 - 08/19/07 01:33 PM Re: Ul & Mainstream [Re: mugs]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
Why don't we take more of a black box approach? Treat everything outside of nature as a black box. Reach into that black box and take what we need to go hiking or whatever it is we want to do, by whatever rules apply within that black box, while doing the least impact outside of the black box. Other than that, maybe stop worry so much about the silly box. We should include people you love, and people we care for, like children and other simple folk around the world, as part of this nature outside of the box. Let the rest of the box just sort itself out, the way we've been expecting nature to. Start with the television maybe. Just shut it off, and all the other junk inside of it. Learn about what is real from what is real, not from what is not.

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#77524 - 08/19/07 02:36 PM Re: Ul & Mainstream [Re: mugs]
NiytOwl Offline
member

Registered: 11/06/04
Posts: 501
Loc: California
I've been mulling over a reply to this topic for almost a week. From a small part of my inner self I agree with mugs - why share something that I have access to because I belong to some "elite" group of hikers? I went through the "rites" of passage to get here, didn't I? Why should someone be able to buy into something I had to learn the hard way?

But the greater part of me says that I wish EVERYONE were getting OUT THERE. Why? Because maybe I wouldn't be attending so many f%@#$g funerals for friends that are dying from cardiovascular disease or watching them grow old and fat before their time.

When it comes to UL, most of the ultralight stuff is there because ultralight materials have become available. There's no difference between a bivy I bought 15 years ago and the one I'd buy today - except the lighter materials in today's bivy. The tent stake is the same, except it's now titanium. The sleeping bag is no different, except it contains higher fill down and high-tech fabrics. Pack - same pack, except spectra reinforced lightweight fabric shell.

If we're talking about the whole attitude of "less is better" - hey, monks have been practicing that for millenia. Should they be incensed that we UL'ers have just now figured it out?

It is my sincere hope that those who I encounter OUT THERE in the future are as courteous as those I have already encountered OUT THERE in the past. And if anyone wants to see a Nazi in action, drop a piece of trash on the trail in front of me or (God help you) flick a cigarette butt. I believe that actually makes a difference. If you want to share the great outdoors, play nice or get out of the sandbox.

For those who sell books through major outlets - hope you make enough money to eventually make those books freely available online. For those who have already made the UL technique freely available - THANK YOU.

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#77525 - 08/19/07 04:08 PM Re: Ul & Mainstream [Re: NiytOwl]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
Surely we must all realize that travelling light is not a modern concept. It's been done for thousands of years, tens of thousands of years, millions of years. Perhaps travelling unneccessarily heavy while travelling unneccessarily is somewhat more modern concept, but I doubt that also. Surely it all just keeps getting re-invented over and over, but that's just marketing. There's nothing new under the sun.

From Stone to Steel
- E.J. Pratt

From stone to bronze, from bronze to steel
Along the road-dust of the sun,
Two revolutions of the wheel
From Java to Geneva run.

The snarl Neanderthal is worn
Close to the smiling Aryan lips,
The civil polish of the horn
Gleams from our praying finger tips.

The evolution of desire
Has but matured a toxic wine,
Drunk long before its heady fire
Reddened Euphrates or the Rhine.

Between the temple and the cave
The boundary lies tissue thin:
The yearlings still the altars crave
As satisfaction for a sin.

The road goes up, the road goes down -
Let Java or Geneva be -
But whether to the cross or crown,
The path lies through Gethsemane.

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#77526 - 08/20/07 11:08 AM Re: Ul & Mainstream [Re: mugs]
drow42 Offline
member

Registered: 03/27/04
Posts: 144
Loc: Washington, DC
Quote:
... I should have listened to my wife on this one.


Sometimes I think the world would be a lot happier place if we all followed that advice more often. I have to go do the dishes now...

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#77527 - 08/20/07 12:00 PM Re: Ul & Mainstream [Re: mugs]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
I dunno about an apology being necessary mugs. lots of times I feel this way about lots of things in the outdoors. I've seen your sentiment reflected by experienced fly fishers and hunters alike.. I share much of it. Much of my energy in the outdoors is spent getting away from the herd.

OTOH, I do believe, like it or not, that in order for us to be able to continue to do what we do, I think the masses need to be exposed to it. Yes, it sucks because there are more idiots out there, yes it sucks because the corporate whores will crank out gear in volume and make it tough for the cottage industries. but unfortunately I see no other way.

I personally think that it's a necessary evil in our democratic world. IMO, UL is about making gear work *practically* in the field, as opposed to in the showroom - Mass market (heavy) gear catches backpackers the same way fishing gear is designed to catch fishermen rather than fish. (No fish ever bought a 800 dollar flyrod). If heavy gear makes backpacking more like car camping, frankly, people find the trails uncomfortable and tiresome, and end up, well, car camping with sexy gear. And here's the problem. If it's only a small group of us devoted to actually getting away from the trailheads, more and more our voices will not be heard. The fact is democracy gets you what you deserve, not what's right. - so if we educate the masses to stay away, with heavy garbage for gear and an attitude that we don't want them (and I know, lots of the time *I don't want them around me*) the fact is we're setting ourselves up for losing a lot of the places we like to go. Nobody will speak for them. nobody will act to protect them and maintain them. Dontcha think it would be a lot easier for forestry companies, parks services, etc. to simply close the backcountry to hikers and keep the masses in the car camps? Why bother getting different (lighter) bear technology certified for an elite few if everyone carries heavy gear? Hunters have the same problem. if you love the sport, you frankly, have to keep people interested in it, and keep it sustainable with more people involved.

As for keeping the cottage industries alive? lots of word of mouth works for that. and I hate to say it -
*seeing you on the trail* - yes, that means getting your butt into the sites with the rest of the herd. I don't think I say in a backcountry campsite these days without someone coming over and taking an amazing interest in my gear, particularly the stuff I make or adapt myself, or order off the net. Yes this can be onerous, and sometimes, if I'm tired it's like "oh boy here it goes again", but nothing is a better advertisement for a good rig, than seeing you, comfortable and well kitted out, on the sort of gear we use, in camp next to them, and if you are approchable, people will ask, and you can brag a little. Heck, I do, and it (for me) makes staying around a few other people worthwhile. I'd bet (and know in at least a couple cases) that I've sold a number of people on stuff I use, after they see me with it, and they're getting stuff off the net from the little guys or making it themselves instead of buying whatever bill of goods MEC/REI sells them.. I think there's enough room in the market for both.

In the end I think that while a lot of us do this (myself included) to quest for solitude, we owe it to the sport to spend at least some of our time out in not-so-solitude showing others the way, and yes this probably means the sport will change.. Ces't la vie. We should participate in that change or it will not be kept anything like pure. Unfortunately the only cure for packs of boneheads is either euthanasia or education, and in our society only the latter will happen, and it will either happen as provided by corpate marketing types, or clueful caring people. You pick. Me, I suck it up and sacrifice some solutide to be a little bit of the latter, knowing the alternative is probably worse.
_________________________
Any fool can be uncomfortable...
My 3 season gear list
Winter list.
Browse my pictures


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#77528 - 08/20/07 12:20 PM Re: Ul & Mainstream [Re: drow42]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Quote:
Quote:
... I should have listened to my wife on this one.


Sometimes I think the world would be a lot happier place if we all followed that advice more often. I have to go do the dishes now...


At least you only have to do the dishes. I have to go pack to leave for Vegas for a week, instead
of packing to hit the mountains for another week. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Of course, my wife doens't backpack....
_________________________
Any fool can be uncomfortable...
My 3 season gear list
Winter list.
Browse my pictures


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#77529 - 08/20/07 12:34 PM Re: Ul & Mainstream [Re: phat]
Bearpaw Offline
Moderator

Registered: 07/25/04
Posts: 1732
Loc: Tennessee
Very nicely said.

One of the greatest feelings upon ending a NOLS course was the final night in the field when we had something of a dedication ceremony. Every one would dedicate themselves to remembering the important things they had taken away from the course. Students sometimes wrote letters that we instructors mailed to them 6 months or a year later.

One point I always made was that these students had earned a little piece of the Wyoming high country through their sweat equity. This ownership would never appear on paper, but they could understandably hold this ground to be sacred because of the experiences they shared there. They might never visit it again. But it would always be theirs. And when they were it might be threatened by mineral rights encroachment, they should be prepared to jealousy guard the wilderness they had earned, to keep it sacred. Nothing else instills that sort of fierce loyalty to wilderness as the treasured memories of the sheer emotion earned from full immersion within it.

We would carry our beastly packs for a full month, maybe covering only 125-150 miles on many courses. But the experience was life-changing for most. Imagine if the 30-something with lightweight gear could step into the Wind Rivers and hike the same route in 7-10 days of vacation. Well, he can if he has good risk management skills, solid cross-country navigation skills, and a desire for adventure. That's one of the great things about the lightweight and UL movement. It opens up some truly remote places to new guardians of the wilderness.
_________________________
http://www.trailjournals.com/BearpawAT99/

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#77530 - 08/20/07 03:38 PM Re: Ul & Mainstream [Re: Bearpaw]
NiytOwl Offline
member

Registered: 11/06/04
Posts: 501
Loc: California
Quote:
That's one of the great things about the lightweight and UL movement. It opens up some truly remote places to new guardians of the wilderness.


That's a truth I can wholeheartedly agree with. Keep in mind that more people sharing the outdoors means more votes toward keeping the outdoor experience alive. It's easier to turn someone on to backpacking if they don't have to lug 50 lbs of stuff around. Just don't get preachy about it - some LIKE to pack heavy.

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#77531 - 08/20/07 03:40 PM Re: Ul & Mainstream [Re: phat]
JimM_PA Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 90
Loc: PA
[/quote]
At least you only have to do the dishes. I have to go pack to leave for Vegas for a week, instead
of packing to hit the mountains for another week. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Of course, my wife doens't backpack.... [/quote]
I had a nice hike with my sons in Red Rock Canyon near Las Vegas a few weeks ago. It was a nice diversion from the neon lights.
Jim

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#77532 - 08/21/07 01:42 PM Re: Ul & Mainstream [Re: mugs]
Paul_C Offline
member

Registered: 07/14/05
Posts: 506
Loc: Beaverton, Orygun
Mugs, your lighter load is your crutch. It's gets you farther into the backcountry? You think you don't have to be in shape, now, huh?

I hope a 60 year old backpacker with a wooden external frame pack holding a 50 pound load passes you on your next uphill. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Jeeper - NW mountain roamer

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#77533 - 08/21/07 02:05 PM Re: Ul & Mainstream [Re: Paul_C]
Paul_C Offline
member

Registered: 07/14/05
Posts: 506
Loc: Beaverton, Orygun
And one more thing....if you try and adjust my pack while I'm trying to enjoy the outdoors - alone - I'll kick you in the shin. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Jeeper - NW mountain roamer

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#77534 - 08/21/07 02:50 PM Re: Ul & Mainstream [Re: lonewolf]
mosquito Offline
member

Registered: 05/13/06
Posts: 86
Loc: Minnesota
I don't think I am an elitist but I have always been a gearhead. My wife and I are both over 55 and our bodies both enjoy lighter gear. We just got back from one week on Isle Royale
and our packs were at aprx 26 and 29 pounds for 6 days. A lot of people came up and asked what we were using. I just hope some of them follow up and switch to lighter gear.
We don't go for long days but with the UL gear our days are much more enjoyable.

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#77535 - 08/21/07 07:24 PM Re: Ul & Mainstream [Re: Paul_C]
mugs Offline
member

Registered: 12/24/05
Posts: 500
Loc: Spokane & Maple Valley, Wa
Quote:
Mugs, your lighter load is your crutch. It's gets you farther into the backcountry? You think you don't have to be in shape, now, huh?

I hope a 60 year old backpacker with a wooden external frame pack holding a 50 pound load passes you on your next uphill. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


HMMMMMMMM lets see here I race cat 4/5 road bikes, commute, plus do "training" ride for a total of about 250-300 miles a week. Go for long walks on some evenings with my wife and even longer walks on th weekends, plus do day hikes, and mountain biking with my kids. And I work out at the college gym after I ride there in the morning. My light pack has nothing to do with me getting deep into the woods, it has to do with my comfort, and lifestyle <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
I miss my 4.8lb base weight as a ground dweller. But I sure don't miss the ground.

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#77536 - 08/24/07 09:34 AM Re: Closing remarks [Re: mugs]
brobin Offline
member

Registered: 05/10/07
Posts: 21
Quote:
Tarbubble, I understand why you did your post. BUt your remarks are what I am trying to say. Would you rather buy your organic food from Albertsons, hence supporting the big chain of Albertsons or would you rather support a local market?
As far as Tourons go, perhaps you have not heard of this term in you neck of the woods. But up here it is a term used for A: a tourist on a day day with no gear what so ever, maybe just a little evian bottle and they can be seen up the trail a good ways (somethime 6+ miles) or B: those that go on a day hike and still take no gear with them. Both are extremely un-prepared and present a hazard to themselve and the possible rescuers that have to come and get them. Hence makign them a tourist and a moron at the same time.

Turon A was spotted about 4 miles up the trail when we were coming out. Later when we were finally at the end of the trail head up comes some wilderness rescuers with a giant "big" wheel gurny. Heat stroke was the prognosis. Yes we confirmed the victim. (that way no acusations can be made that it might have been somone else) No I did not take such picture, I for one find it gross, but it proves the point.



This touron campsite was about 5 miles up the trail. I took these pictures of what not to do. Note un-staked tent, and food lying around, cooler, and even a steel double burner propane stove. Open trash bag. Not to mention the mess.









No I do not view you as an idiot, any more than a person who asks me to fix their car. I am happy to do it and love doing it. I am a peole person and love to serve, in fact I believe that we were put here to serve and not to be served. And you can be safe, I do not even have a desire to teach elementry. I have the utmost respect for elementry teachers and there will be a special place in heaven for them (not math teachers though <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />) I actually plan on teaching college/adult ed, but will be starting out in secondary ed because of job security.
No I don't have a superiority complex, and if anything I have yet to master the UL/SUL world, in fact as progressive as it is it is one that can never be mastered, just like life. It was not my intent to come off that way. But I can understand how one might see it as such.


I think this post disproves your entire argument. If these people had at least read a good book on backpacking before heading out, they would not be "tourons".

You know, I am an engineer, but they made me read a lot of books and do much studying before I was allowed to start designing stuff. I learned a ton from experience, but education is the first step in learning. I think it is great that UL books and gear are being made more available to the general public.

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