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#195473 - 05/25/16 10:49 PM Sleeping Pads: Inflatable v. Self-inflating
Glenn Roberts Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 2207
Loc: Southwest Ohio
Spoiler alert: all you folks who are irrevocably wed to your closed cell pads can stop reading now.

We've had inflatable pads since the 1950s - well, sort of. Colin Fletcher talked about his air mattresses, which were uninsulated water-floaties-on-steroids. Self-inflating pads (Thermarest) blew those off the face of the backpacking map by providing insulation and comfort with the added bonus of lighter weight and less bulk.

Then, around the turn of the century, a new generation of inflatable air mattresses burst on the scene and made self-inflators low-tech. They used all sorts of fancy laminates and other materials to achieve really high r-values and thickness to provide sink-in, cushy comfort at weights rivaling closed-cell pads.

Having had several years experience with inflatables, I'm now starting to lose my fascination. While there is no denying the sheer comfort of inflatables, it comes at the price of functionality. First, to get the extra 2 inches of comfort under you, you give up 2 inches of headroom in your tent. (Most self-inflators are 1 or 1.5 inches thick; inflatables are 2.5-3.5 inches thick.) Second, you have to inflate an inflatable pad - which requires extra effort, by mouth, or extra weight for a pump. Third, with that extra thickness, you just about have to use a full-length pad - you can't use your pack as padding under your lower legs. A full-length inflatable usually isn't much, if any, lighter than a short self-inflators. The ability to use a short pad with your pack under your lower legs not only minimizes weight, but neatly solves the problem of where to store your pack. (Note: if you use a trampoline suspension pack, this isn't as practical.)

But the biggest issue that's making me question whether I want to continue using an inflatable pad is where to sit in camp. One thing that I valued as much as sleeping comfort was the ability to use a chair kit that let the pad double as a comfortable chair in camp. I was able to sit in the pad-chair and relax my back (sitting on a sit pad, or a log, or just a ground cloth leaves me with a tired back.) With a rested back, I found I slept sounder and, as a result, had more energy the next day. Inflatable pads just aren't as easy or comfortable to use with a chair kit; the air squishes around and puts your butt on the ground unless you fully inflate the pad - which means you're about six inches off the ground with a doubled-over pad - and the double layers tend to try to separate and scoot off on their own. It's just not as stable or comfortable as a self-inflating pad in a chair kit.

So, this summer, I'm going to give self-inflators another try, and see what happens. Oddly enough, the self-inflator I've chosen (Thermarest Trail Scout) and Compack chair is nearly a pound lighter than the Big Agnes Q-Core SL and Big Easy chair kit they replace. Go figure.

Has anyone else gone back to self inflators? If so, why? Ever tempted to return to inflatables? Likewise, for those who prefer inflatables - why? Ever tempted to go back to self-inflators? Any other comments?


Edited by Glenn Roberts (05/25/16 10:56 PM)

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#195475 - 05/25/16 10:55 PM Re: Sleeping Pads: Inflatable v. Self-inflating [Re: Glenn Roberts]
JustWalking Online   content
member

Registered: 01/12/16
Posts: 293
Loc: PNW
I started with inflatables, not self-inflators, so nothing to go back to. But I like my inflatable (not as much as my hammock, but that's another thread...). While I do keep my pack in my tent (when ground dwelling), I've never liked the idea of using it as part of my sleep system, so I've always used full length pads. Actually, because I'm not a fan of 20" wide pads, I actually use XL pads that are 25" wide. They provide me with about as good a sleep as I can get on the ground (never great, I'm a tosser/turner), and are therefore worth the extra weight for me.

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#195484 - 05/26/16 02:43 PM Re: Sleeping Pads: Inflatable v. Self-inflating [Re: JustWalking]
Glenn Roberts Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 2207
Loc: Southwest Ohio
Do you have any problems with 25" pads being too wide for your tent? (I'm assuming you're using a solo tent; there obviously wouldn't be any such issue if you use a two person tent just for yourself.)

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#195486 - 05/26/16 02:53 PM Re: Sleeping Pads: Inflatable v. Self-inflating [Re: Glenn Roberts]
Rick_D Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 2939
Loc: NorCal
I never ditched my traditional T-rests after first acquiring a NeoAir but honestly, they sit on the shelf, taking up space and gathering dust, trip after trip. So I suppose I'm still voting inflator.

And speaking of space, one of the seldom-sung advantages is the relatively tiny amount of pack space they consume compared to any foam pad. A shorty NeoAir is like a sandwich roll and a full-length warmer model is only about twice the bulk. Not to mention they're inside, safe from sharp branches and the like.

Cheers,
_________________________
--Rick

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#195487 - 05/26/16 03:45 PM Re: Sleeping Pads: Inflatable v. Self-inflating [Re: Glenn Roberts]
BZH Offline
member

Registered: 01/26/11
Posts: 1189
Loc: Madison, AL
Originally Posted By Glenn Roberts
Do you have any problems with 25" pads being too wide for your tent? (I'm assuming you're using a solo tent; there obviously wouldn't be any such issue if you use a two person tent just for yourself.)


I was concerned by this, but it has not been a problem. I've put 2x25" pads in a two person tent and 2x25" + 2x20" pads in a 4 person tent. Both exceeded the available floor space. The pads just curve up at the edges and doesn't really affect anything.

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#195489 - 05/26/16 04:06 PM Re: Sleeping Pads: Inflatable v. Self-inflating [Re: Glenn Roberts]
JustWalking Online   content
member

Registered: 01/12/16
Posts: 293
Loc: PNW
Originally Posted By Glenn Roberts
Do you have any problems with 25" pads being too wide for your tent? (I'm assuming you're using a solo tent; there obviously wouldn't be any such issue if you use a two person tent just for yourself.)


My current shelter is a Tarptent Moment DW, and I haven't really had any issue with the pad fitting inside. It fills the space, but that's okay. I'd prefer a 1.5 person shelter, but the Moment works okay and I can't afford to buy the Hilleberg Niak that I'd like. :-)

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#195491 - 05/26/16 04:28 PM Re: Sleeping Pads: Inflatable v. Self-inflating [Re: JustWalking]
balzaccom Offline
member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 2232
Loc: Napa, CA
OK. So we're old. We use a Z-rest on the bottom, and then lay a Neo-air over the top.

And we are very comfortable, thank you very much !
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#195492 - 05/26/16 05:36 PM Re: Sleeping Pads: Inflatable v. Self-inflating [Re: balzaccom]
OregonMouse Offline
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
I know I've outlined my pad history before, but it's been a while and we have lots of new folks. If this is familiar, just skip this post.

Childhood thru teens--no pad at all
Age 20s and 30s-- the traditional blue foam pad
40s and early 50s--one of the earliest Thermarests, with lavish praise for this marvelous invention (unti it "got too thin"
Late 50s and early 60s--a thicker (and heavier) Thermarest.
Mid 60s on--progressively thicker inflatable insulated pads (progressively more insulation, too!
At age 80, I find that my Exped Downmat UL7 is getting a bit on the thin side, although I greatly appreciate its warmth!

Each "upgrade" was due to worsening hip pain when sleeping on my side. It has become progressively worse with age, although I of course complain that my pad is getting too thin!
lol

Of course I still sit on the ground (with a sit pad that used to be for my late dog to sleep on), a rock or a log, so I don't feel the need for a chair.






Edited by OregonMouse (05/26/16 05:40 PM)
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#195495 - 05/26/16 06:00 PM Re: Sleeping Pads: Inflatable v. Self-inflating [Re: Glenn Roberts]
wgiles Offline
member

Registered: 05/19/14
Posts: 182
Loc: Central Illinois near Springfi...
I don't really feel comfortable on anything less than a 3" foam rubber mattress. None the less, I favor the lighter self inflating pads for sleeping on the ground. I have a Trail Scout and a Prolite+ short pad. I usually put a 25" X 48" piece of insulating Poluethylene foam under the pad. The foam is a Z-fold that pads the back of my pack. It's not comfortable by itself, but it adds some warmth underneath. I find that the self inflating pads don't. I normally have to blow them up some to get comfortable. The Prolite+ is acceptably comfortable, the Trail Scout is marginally comfortable. I haven't had much trouble rolling or sliding off them, unless I overinflate. I try not to sleep on my side because it puts too much pressure on my shoulder. My nights on the ground are usually fitful, but I feel OK the next day.

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#195496 - 05/26/16 06:03 PM Re: Sleeping Pads: Inflatable v. Self-inflating [Re: OregonMouse]
Glenn Roberts Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 2207
Loc: Southwest Ohio
Hadn't really thought about the age factor. Although I'm 66, I'm lucky: everything still works, and nothing hurts. One thing I am anxious to see is whether, as a side sleeper, a self-inflator will allow me enough softness to keep my hips from getting sore after a few hours. The pads I'm looking at are a solid-foam one-inch thickness, and a cored-foam inch and a half thickness.

The chair issue is my weakness: I'm just not comfortable without some padding and back support.

We'll see how it goes.

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#195498 - 05/26/16 06:38 PM Re: Sleeping Pads: Inflatable v. Self-inflating [Re: wgiles]
Glenn Roberts Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 2207
Loc: Southwest Ohio
Those are the same two pads I'm considering. Here in the Ohio-Kentucky-Indiana area, an R-3.4 should be plenty for 3 seasons, and I was thinking a Z-rest under it for winter. I'm leaning toward the Trail Scout because I find the solid-core foam more supportive in thinner pads - but I'm not sure how stiff it will need to be inflated to provide adequate support. I've got past experience with Prolite Plus, and it was always comfortable enough - but I think they use a different foam now.

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#195500 - 05/26/16 06:57 PM Re: Sleeping Pads: Inflatable v. Self-inflating [Re: Glenn Roberts]
wgiles Offline
member

Registered: 05/19/14
Posts: 182
Loc: Central Illinois near Springfi...
I spoke too soon. I've got a Prolite+, but it's a regular, not a short. The short pad is an REI Lite-Core. I don't recall the specifics, but it is supposed to be 1-1/2" thick, like the Polite+. I use the regular for basecamp or canoe camping, when I'm not so concerned with weight. I use a Z-seat pad under my feet in the cold. The Z-seat is lighter than a self inflating seat pad and makes a good pad for standing on.

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#195502 - 05/26/16 08:05 PM Re: Sleeping Pads: Inflatable v. Self-inflating [Re: Glenn Roberts]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2865
Loc: California
I disagree with your assessment.

1. There are plenty of self-inflatables (with an extra puff needed to fully inflate) that are well under 2 inches. My prolite is not even an inch.

2. Full length is not needed. I have an X-small prolite (8 oz) that I lay on shoulders to hips. I use my backpack with stuff sack of extra clothing for a pillow. I then use a 2x2 foam for my feet. (see next item)

3. Why one or the other? Why not both? I take one (summer)or two (shoulder season) square of blue foam squares (about 2x2 feet), weighing 2 oz each. Total weight with my prolite x-small is 12 oz. The blue pads double as sit pads for camp. When I take two, one goes under the prolite for extra R-factor and the other under my feet. I like this system because I am a fetal curl-up side sleeper and the foot foam can be adjusted at an angle.

4. The inflatable gives me cushion on my hips and shoulders. Having my feet dangle down a bit does not bother me. The pack rises the head area enough that I need only a very small stuff sack of clothing as a neck pillow.

I bought my inflatable at REI. When the first one sprung a leak they fixed it free. Second leak, they completely replaced it. With the foam squares I never have to take the pad out of the tent. I always pack the pad inside my pack.

If I were to use only one pad, it would ideally be a circle or egg-shaped so I could curl up on it.

PS My dog only gets a half-size Z-rest with a fleece cover.

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#195507 - 05/27/16 07:11 AM Re: Sleeping Pads: Inflatable v. Self-inflating [Re: wandering_daisy]
Glenn Roberts Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 2207
Loc: Southwest Ohio
Hi, Daisy:

I'm not sure we really disagree (my comments are italicized):

1. There are plenty of self-inflatables (with an extra puff needed to fully inflate) that are well under 2 inches. My prolite is not even an inch. I think I said the same thing, that self-inflating pads tend to be thinner than inflatable mattresses. If I didn't, that's what I meant to say.

2. Full length is not needed. I have an X-small prolite (8 oz) that I lay on shoulders to hips. I use my backpack with stuff sack of extra clothing for a pillow. I then use a 2x2 foam for my feet. (see next item) Again, I fully agree - that (and better compatibility with a chair) is one of the criteria I'll be evaluating - a short pad with pack under my legs. I never used a full-length pad until I started using the inflatable NeoAir pads.

3. Why one or the other? Why not both? I take one (summer)or two (shoulder season) square of blue foam squares (about 2x2 feet), weighing 2 oz each. Total weight with my prolite x-small is 12 oz. The blue pads double as sit pads for camp. When I take two, one goes under the prolite for extra R-factor and the other under my feet. I like this system because I am a fetal curl-up side sleeper and the foot foam can be adjusted at an angle. I like this idea, and will carry a Z-Lite full-length pad if I'm still using a 3/4 pad come winter. I've tried sit-pads, and they work; my own preference is for a chair kit. Please don't read any more into it than a personal preference.

4. The inflatable gives me cushion on my hips and shoulders. Having my feet dangle down a bit does not bother me. The pack rises the head area enough that I need only a very small stuff sack of clothing as a neck pillow. I never had a problem with my feet dangling off a 1" or 1.5" pad, either, especially if my pack was under my feet. A Neoair wasn't too bad, either, but it was noticeable (princess and the pea syndrome?) However, the 3" dangle from a Big Agnes pad was distinctly uncomfortable. As far as a pillow, I usually put my hiking shoes at the head of the tent, butting up against the top of the pad, and - like you - use a small bag of clothing as a pillow, with no problems.

I'm going to go back and re-read my initial post - I may have gotten a bit too flowery, and come across as trying to figure out which type of pad is "right" and which is "wrong." That wasn't my intent - I was just curious if anyone else had tried both types of pads, and decided they liked the "old tech" (which doesn't equate with "low tech") self-inflators better, for whatever personal reasons.

After this little experiment, I may well end up back on a self-inflating pad, using a sit-pad in camp. Or not. smile


Edited by Glenn Roberts (05/27/16 07:25 AM)

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#195510 - 05/27/16 10:56 AM Re: Sleeping Pads: Inflatable v. Self-inflating [Re: Glenn Roberts]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2865
Loc: California
I guess that when I read "inflatable" I just lump them all together, as distinct from foam pads. Shows how far behind the newest technology I am! Self-inflatables still need a bit of human powered inflation. I see the big fat pads in the store, but since I mostly solo, or go with other old people who have even more old-school stuff (still using Kelty external frames), I have little exposure to the new fangled gear.

For me, "comfort" is relative. After being out a few days I adjust to whatever sleeping pad I have. I found that my aches and pains are due to over-exersion or just being out of shape and have little to do with what pad I sleep on. Realistically, I have plenty of aches and pains at home on a luxurious pillow-top mattress.

The critical function of a sleeping pad is warmth. I would never haul a 2 pound pad, no matter how comfortable.

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#195512 - 05/27/16 01:12 PM Re: Sleeping Pads: Inflatable v. Self-inflating [Re: Glenn Roberts]
BrianLe Offline
member

Registered: 02/26/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Washington State, King County
A fun analysis, Glenn. There are trade-offs in picking almost any gear option, and we most of us think and process this stuff at least a little differently. Sometimes in communicating about that, we can look at it from another angle and adjust what we're doing.

And sometimes that even works out well ... :-)

I think my path along this road was similar to yours. I've ended up in the camp of those who like the big, thick, but these days fairly light inflatables. So sacrificing brevity ... my thoughts on using a thicker inflatable:

(1) Give up 2" headroom in tent: probably a little less than that I think unless you keep it very fully inflated, i.e., when I sit up, my weight is in my butt, other parts of the pad become more rigidly inflated and my butt sinks a little. But nevertheless --- yes, it can be an issue. For me, this one is something that either is an issue with my particular height and the specific tent I'm using, and sometimes even exactly how I've pitched it ... or it's not. Generally for me it's not.

Let me add that once or twice when either through tent leakage or just coming in very wet from a deluge, when there's significant water pooled on your tent floor, it can be very nice to have a "taller" inflatable!

(2) Offsetting the possible height negative --- besides just the overall comfort factor, I like that I can pitch my tent on relatively rough ground that I would have avoided --- or been less happy with --- in a thinner self-inflator. What I sometimes used to do was also bring a ccf pad (at least for the torso) to layer under the self-inflator, but of course at a weight & bulk/volume cost.

(3) Not a good pad to sit on at camp or breaks. True, I carry a modest ccf square strapped to the top of my pack. I find this handier than a full rolled up ccf pad anyway; quick to deploy, I don't mind getting it (one side) dirty, helpful to kneel on sometimes for putting up/taking down tent, pretty light. If I want a backrest, there's often a tree, a stump, a trail sign, a rock, something to lean back against.

OTOH, I've hiked with friends who integrate a full-length ccf pad into their sleep system, and they love to toss that down and sprawl, lay down at breaks. So it's partly a style issue too; I don't take as many breaks, but when I hike with these guys I do. Sometimes I find I'm okay just laying on the ground when they're on their pads, but I admit that for such lounging a bigger ccf pad is nice.

(4) Have to have a full-length pad if it's one of the thick ones, as otherwise it's a big drop-off for your legs?
In fact, I disagree with this one. In winter or near-winter (shoulder seasons) I like having a full-length neo-air (and some sort of thinner ccf pad on top of it). But in warmer weather, my pack under my legs with the pack padding faced up and shoulder and waist straps carefully out of the way, the drop-off factor isn't much, and in warmer weather I sometimes have at least a little clothing or something to try to evenly plump up the pack. A little tweakier than using a full-length pad, but worth it --- not only lighter and lower pack volume, but less effort to inflate and deflate.
I do have a little thermarest neo air inflator that weighs 1.8 oz without batteries (takes 2 AAA batteries). I've only used this car camping, canoe camping, that sort of thing.

One factor in using your pack as sleep system padding is in rainy weather if the pack just gets soaked. I have a very light cuben pack cover to reduce --- or at least delay that outcome, but given wet enough conditions I am nevertheless faced with wet pack padding to lay my (down) sleeping bag on top of. This situation is why I believe that whatever deity you might believe in created thin black plastic yard waste bags. Okay, they might be useful for yard waste too, but they really fulfill their purpose and cosmic destiny on very rainy backpacking trips.

(5) Durability is also a potential issue, but with care --- not so much, I think. Two of my longest trips have been with original model neo-airs, and in both cases after a couple thousand miles of use they had seemingly un-fixable very slow leaks, but were still entirely usable. Just maybe have to wake up close to flat on the ground after a few hours and reinflate, or more commonly, when I wake up anyway (hey, I'm old ...), put a few puffs in to bring it back up. But that's adequate durability for me, barring anything unforeseen. And one is wise to bring at least a minimal patch kit for any sort of inflatable anyway.

So --- I'll stick with the neo-air based approach, but am the first to agree that there isn't some universally correct answer!
_________________________
Brian Lewis
http://postholer.com/brianle

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#195513 - 05/27/16 01:25 PM Re: Sleeping Pads: Inflatable v. Self-inflating [Re: BrianLe]
BrianLe Offline
member

Registered: 02/26/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Washington State, King County
Dang, despite all those words, I did omit one thing, related to issues of a thicker pad and tent height.

I mentioned that sitting up isn't a full 2" height "hit" for a 2" thick pad. What CAN be an issue, and has been for me is a tent that's relatively short and/or slopes aggressively towards the head or foot end of the tent. I find in particular that if I sleep with a 2" inflatable in my Gatewood Cape, when I'm lying down (and thus the pressure is equally distributed along the inflatable), then either the head or the foot end of my sleeping bag is likely to brush against the fabric of this single walled tent. This gets the bag wet from condensation and that's --- a bad thing.

So for such a tent, I'm not a fan of using a full-length thick inflatable. Obviously this is going to vary by the individual and specific tent, but is something to factor in.

As a totally rambling side-note, my gatewood cape is a specific piece of gear that I only use in certain situations anyway. One is for day hikes where I don't expect a lot of rain, it makes a good dual-purpose piece of "10 essentials" kit. If I couple it with a pack that has removable ccf back padding, it's a particularly credible emergency shelter.
The other time I'll use it is on backpacking trips where I anticipate few bugs and not a lot of rain. I can use my torso-length neo-air in it, just don't fully inflate the pad. This is a very lightweight combination when conditions are right.
_________________________
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http://postholer.com/brianle

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#195518 - 05/27/16 02:54 PM Re: Sleeping Pads: Inflatable v. Self-inflating [Re: BrianLe]
OregonMouse Offline
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
I hope that we've at least demonstrated that sleeping styles are almost as individual as shoe fit, so we each need to work out what works the best for each of us as individuals.

For those starting out or getting a new pad, several nights on the floor at home, while the pad is still returnable as new, are a good idea. However, don't get too carried away with features like light weight (which caused me to keep the original NeoAir long after it was responsible for a number of sleepless nights). I finally determined that I don't do well with pads having horizontal air chambers. I spent much of my nights trying to climb back on after the NeoAir "bucked me off" every time I turned over. Obviously, a lot of folks like the various configurations of NeoAir, so it's truly a case of YMMV, HYOH. For me, I need a pad with vertical air chambers and with the outer ones slightly higher than the others (why Exped works for me) so I don't roll off whenI turn over, which I do frequently during the night.

Also, as Brian points out, if you want a nice thick cushy pad, and especially if you also want a thick pillow, make sure there's enough clearance at the head end of your tent so you don't brush against the tent when you sit up. Also, the closer your head is to the tent roof, the more condensation you'll get there, since the main moisture source in the tent is your exhaling.

All this demonstrates that you should be looking at your sleep system as a coordinated whole, not at tent, pad, and sleeping bag as individual items! It took a long time for me to figure that one out!


Edited by OregonMouse (05/27/16 02:58 PM)
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#195526 - 05/28/16 06:35 AM Re: Sleeping Pads: Inflatable v. Self-inflating [Re: OregonMouse]
bluefish Offline
member

Registered: 06/05/13
Posts: 680
I imagine many new campers inflate a pad until it feels rigid, lay on it, and decide that it's not comfortable. Adjusting the air level is critical to comfort, as is a pillow that works for your style of sleeping. If I over-inflate my large, older TR camp pad (I think it's called the Luxury something now) it's marginally more comfortable than lying on a 1/2" blue CCF pad. Dialing in my Neo-Air produces sleep for me near as well as the large air-over-foam pad. To further OM's analogy to shoe fit, dialing in a pad with inflation level and pillow is akin to the proper insole for your feet in said footwear.
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#195529 - 05/28/16 10:41 AM Re: Sleeping Pads: Inflatable v. Self-inflating [Re: bluefish]
OregonMouse Offline
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
I like my pad nice and squishy, with just enough air to keep my hipbone off the ground when I'm on my side. My goal is to have my spine parallel to the gound when lying on my side. IMHO, lying on a fully inflated pad is not much different from lying on bare concrete.

Underinflation does reduce the R value of the pad, which is one reason I need a warmer pad.
_________________________
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#195590 - 05/31/16 04:19 PM Re: Sleeping Pads: Inflatable v. Self-inflating [Re: OregonMouse]
simpske
Unregistered


I prefer the inflatables. I have a neoair original short that keeps me cozy and dry in my bivy.

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#195618 - 06/01/16 01:56 PM Re: Sleeping Pads: Inflatable v. Self-inflating [Re: ]
Zuuk Offline
member

Registered: 09/22/15
Posts: 70
Loc: NB, Canada
Funny how you can read through topics and find an idea you never thought of before; so thanks everyone for the idea!

I had a self inflatable that I ended up breaking the valve on, so I went with a yoga mat that was lightweight and worked fine for me. Of course, I'm always on the lookout for something that could be better. A couple of different posts kind of put on a light bulb for me when I combine the ideas.

I have one of those folding camp chairs that have a pad so sit on and one for the back, with a small strap on each side to hold the back up, and no legs. I never thought of using that as a sleeping pad from my shoulders to my hips, and then use my pack for elevating my legs. One of the things I have to "live with" now is having my legs swell up during the day, and have them go back down at night. Even with compression leggings, they still do it. It never donned on me (hmm, is it donned or dawned? either would work...) that using the pack for elevating my legs would also negate the need for a full length pad.

I may have to do a trial sleep now, and see how it works. Would shed a little weight too.

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