You folks have given me all kinds of ideas...Thanks!! From talking to the assistant SM that invited me, it appears the people I have to convince will be the dads/moms. The kids will do what the parents say. (yeah, right ) So, for this meeting, I'll break it into little 5-10 min segments and talk about: 1. backpacking/camping styles in general...climates, topography, preparing....why ultralite? 2. What to wear, starting with feet and moving up from there. 3. What to eat, how to prepare it. (which includes stoves/pot/utensil). 4. Packs, tarps/hammocks, equipment in general. 5. DIY or where to buy. If I get invited back, we can then drill down into subjects a bit deeper.
You have to remember where the parents are coming from, since they are your target audience. The parents aren't carrying the gear, the kids are, but the parents are buying the gear. Most look at a $100 sleeping bag as REALLY expensive, especially when it is for a 12-13 year old who will probably either loose it, or trash it, or out grow it. They are already funding a few other things for their kids, and this just adds to the list. And, depending on the troop, they might be paying dues for the kid to just go to meetings, plus the fortune they fork out for uniforms. In other words, if you don't show them how to do it cheaply, they won't listen.
_________________________
I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.
Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 3293
Loc: Portland, OR
if you don't show them how to do it cheaply, they won't listen.
Even having no direct experience as a scout master, this sounds 100% correct. Luckily, the lightest thing in your pack is always what you didn't bring, which is usually the cheapest, too. That's always the place to start with lightweight packing anyway.
Darn few of these kids will end up with a really good down sleeping bag, but I'd strongly urge the idea that, of all the places to put one's money, to reserve the lion's share of what you can afford to put toward the sleeping bag. Make a few suggestions about what a useable bag looks like when shopping for it, and provide some illustrations from real life: cite a few bags you located on the internet.
Absolutely agree. My wife ran a girl scout troop for a dozen years and we became quite expert at providing for the less fortunate members. My #1 clothing source is....the closet. Much of what they already own will suddenly become cutting edge hiking apparel. Walmart would be the second source. Sleeping bags are the tricky part but since we're in Texas, they won't likely be considering 0 deg bags. The main thing with the adults is to get their heads headed in the right direction.
I'd put a pack right up there with a sleeping bag - maybe ahead of it - for a troop that hikes a lot. I've seen a lot of little kids that become packs-with-legs because their parents buy an adult-size pack that "he'll grow into" - if he doesn't totally lose interest because he totes around too much crap in a pack because it will hold it all, and which doesn't even come close to fitting, with the result that he never learns that a load doesn't have to just hang from his shoulders. REI and (last time I checked) the Boy Scouts both had good-quality kid-specific packs that weren't too hard on the checkbook.
I'll probably start the presentation with a picure of "Grandma Gatewood" with her duffle bag and her Keds. "All you need is an old shower curtain, a couple wool blankets, a jar of water, and you can hike the AT, just like her!"
Darn few of these kids will end up with a really good down sleeping bag, but I'd strongly urge the idea that, of all the places to put one's money, to reserve the lion's share of what you can afford to put toward the sleeping bag. Make a few suggestions about what a useable bag looks like when shopping for it, and provide some illustrations from real life: cite a few bags you located on the internet.
For my troop, I try my hardest to supply most of the gear. I have either bought or borrowed packs and tents. I tell the parents that they need to spend the most on the sleeping bag. I tell them to buy their clothes at the thrift store, or look in the closet, and then spend the money on a good bag. Of course, despite my pleading, only one parent has spent more than $100 on a bag (a kelty lightyear). The rest have all bought the $50 Coleman Max 0F bag at Walmart. I figure that that is good enough and tell parents that that is the minimum they should spend and the only bag they should buy at Walmart.
_________________________
I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.
I'd put a pack right up there with a sleeping bag - maybe ahead of it - for a troop that hikes a lot. I've seen a lot of little kids that become packs-with-legs because their parents buy an adult-size pack that "he'll grow into" - if he doesn't totally lose interest because he totes around too much crap in a pack because it will hold it all, and which doesn't even come close to fitting, with the result that he never learns that a load doesn't have to just hang from his shoulders. REI and (last time I checked) the Boy Scouts both had good-quality kid-specific packs that weren't too hard on the checkbook.
Because the pack is very important, and because I want them to spend money on a bag, I have been buying a couple packs that are 12 year old specific. I have a Kelty Jr Tioga that is amazing. But I have also bought 2 Outdoor Products Dragonfly packs. The external frame really lends itself to 12 year old scouts with big sleeping bags. And, the frame is the right size for the small boys. I can even size it for my 9 year old. I also bought 2 MOLLE hip belts that fit perfectly on the Dragonfly frame for when a larger boy, or adult needs to use the pack. Of course, the pack is not light at a little over 3 lbs.
_________________________
I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.
Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: California (southern)
I totally agree on your priorities...However, I am not surprised at what most of your parents did. If the kids get into outdoor pursuits, they will see the point behind getting a really good, light bag.
I totally agree on your priorities...However, I am not surprised at what most of your parents did. If the kids get into outdoor pursuits, they will see the point behind getting a really good, light bag.
I am not surprised either, so I take it as a compromise. Besides, with the Coleman Max bag, I know the kids are going to be warm.
_________________________
I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.
Well I did it! Gave the talk tonight and ran long because of the interest and questions. Talked a bit about all of your responses, lots of good stuff. Spent some time talking about my own evolution, bringing some of my old equipment and what I use now. By some of the questions from both adults and kids, I can tell the scoutmaster will have his hands full dealing with his new 'gear heads'. Thanks everyone!
Scoutmaster has your phone number, and he may respond to gearhead inquiries by giving it out!
Ha! Only through a third party. When I typed up the hand-outs I left any reference to me.....off.
This troop is WAY ahead of the curve. The kids didn't get stuck on stoves, the parents did though. Had this nightmare of creating a bunch of pyro's. Out of 30 kids, around 10 raised their hand when I asked who used a hammock, plus 3 of the leaders. I didn't have to preach about cotton....they all knew. Most wore trail runners already. The only snag in all this is Philmonts packing list requirements. It's still old school. No hammocks, and tarps are frowned upon, as are alky stoves and esbit. Clearly for kiddo safety. My dad taught me minimalist camping...scouts undid it. http://philmontscoutranch.org/Camping/Hikers/WhattoBring/PackingList.aspx
You're probably already aware of the efforts folks like Ryan Jordan and Glen van Peski are making to change Philmont's positions toward ultralight gear - there's actually a Scouting section and a Philmont-specific subsection on the BackpackingLight website.
I've not spent any time with it since the chances of me ever taking Scouts to Philmont are effectively zero.
I didn't know about Glen (proud owner/user of a GPV4! ) I did read backpackinglight's Philmont list page. Still, the park makes the final call, but I hope some headway is made. I once followed a scout and his mom (friends of mine) around an Academy Sports as she filled the shopping basket with 'stuff' from their list. The pack must have been bigger than the scout. Last nights troop is very adventurous with great leadership. Nice website too...check out "Florida Seabase".
Our long-time Sponsor, BackcountryGear.com - The leading source for ultralite/lightweight outdoor gear:
Affiliate Disclaimer: This forum is an affiliate of BackcountryGear.com, Amazon.com, R.E.I. and others. The product links herein are linked to their sites. If you follow these links to make a purchase, we may get a small commission. This is our only source of support for these forums. Thanks.!