OK I know everyone will raise a fuss (maybe) and I know the pack is suposoed to be the last item purchased but if you know all the gear you are going to purchse, does it really matter? Let me start by listing the main gear I will be bringing.

Thermarest Ridgerest Duluxe Regular pad
REI Sahara 30^ bag regular
Marmot Limilight 2p tent
I am going to pick up a stuff sack for clothes
I am going to pick up a small bear canister
I also want to get a few esentiails (burner, water filter etc) but most of my firends already have that stuff adn they go with me.

The types of hikes I will go on are no more then 5 days but typically 2-4, On Thru hikes. Mostly in the Sierra Nevada and Utah.

Now my issue, I am having a hard time deciding between packs? I am considering the following:
$170 REI Flash 65 http://www.rei.com/product/778468
$155 TNF El Lobo (65) http://www.rei.com/product/803917
$120 TNF Terra 65 http://www.rei.com/product/795972
$109 High Sierra Sentinal 65 http://www.rei.com/product/760600

I was going to shy away from the REI only because my friend has it and it does not have a seperate / bottom sleeping bag compartment. The Terra does not have bottom straps but looks to be the most comfortable. The HS is the cheapest but I am not so confidante about the brand. Also both TNF seem to be short on pockets.

Any help is much apprecaited. I hope I was clear and direct.
Thanks,

Oh and I have been on plenty of camping trips and long days hikes but just a few backpacking trips. I do love it but I have never had the hiking partners to do it with.

Packs with framesheets either work for you or they don't - hopefully you are getting sized and trying these on with weight in them first? I tried a Terra pack - it did not work for me.

I know some people like them, but sleeping bag compartments are a nuisance - putting the bag in a waterproof bag and then in the pack liner then putting all the gear in on top works great. And then you are actually able to use a pack liner instead of a pack liner for the sleeping bag and another for the rest of the gear.

You hopefully are able to ask the clerk to let you stuff a large bear can inside. Stuffing in a small bear can won't help. Small bear cans for the average person are 2-3 day volume, unless you simply fill it with a huge bag of nuts, which puts you in the eat-to-live category. You want to be able to fit a large bear can in for those longer trips - some of the packs out there will bust a seam because the pack makers didn't account for the necessity of a bear can. The difficulty is the width of something like the bear vault.

First step - get those measurements and see if the packs even have a size that works for you. If you are "lucky" like me and need a medium hip belt with a small back frame, no pack with a sewn in hip belt will be comfortable. The packs on your list that I am familiar with do not adjust at all and do not allow you to swap straps or belt without butchering the pack.

Sleeping bag pockets are a waste and they add weight. Either they are too small or too large and you just stuff other things in with them. Side pockets are a matter of personal choice. I have one old Kelty tioga with side pockets that a girl friend likes because she has all kinds of junk and they are handy for it all. My pack is just a big sack with a pocket on the top. I can put everything in there that is small or delicate. From a technical viewpoint, frame-less packs were originally intended for mountaineers who didn't want side pockets, for backpackers it just depends on whether you have so much stuff that you need them.
Jim

Frame sheets you refer to I am assuming are in TNF El Lobo (shown on their website) and the REI Flash. I have tried on the flash with weight and thought it felt good but not totally soft. I also tried on the Terra 60 (last years model) with out weight and it felt very soft. Lastly I have tired the High Sierra with weight as well it felt pretty good I just wasn't sold on it yet. I haven't found a store in person that has the El Lobo.

As for the sleeping bag pocket, the pack I barrowed from my friend was any older REI 75. It opened from the bottom or the top. I found that I opened it from the bottom when I was taking stuff out but when I packed it I loaded it from the top.

As for the bear vault I was looking at the BV450. They have a few more but as it goes I haven't seen to many to chose from on the internet. I am not sure when I woudl need to carry more food. With this summers trip there are already two guys that have the larger model. Last time we ate a hot meal 3 times a day. This time we are going to try and make it only 2 times.
http://www.rei.com/search?query=bear+vault

Anyone else?

If you haven't already found them, there are lots of excellent articles for beginners and on gear selection listed in the left-hand column of http://www.backpacking.net/, the home page of this site.

Another good site for gear selection is Mark Verber's website. Lots of ideas for gear, including low-budget alternatives.

You stand a much better chance of having a comfortable pack if you take your gear and the equivalent in bulk/weight of a week's food, water and fuel when you try on your pack. And I would definitely forget about a sleeping bag compartment. In addition to the reasons listed above, it just adds unnecessary weight to carry!

How often, really, do you need to have access to your sleeping bag during the day? For me the answer is, Once -- when I get to camp and set up for the night. At that point, having it at the very bottom of my pack is hardly a nuisance. I've never understood the popularity of the "sleeping bag compartment" for this reason.

The REI 65 pack is nice, and of course they have the bulletproof guarantee. Try it on, though, since pack fit is so individual.

While you are making a list, let me add my favorite pack, the Six Moons Designs Starlite. As long as your total load stays under 30 pounds or so, this is a terrific pack. Make sure you get and use the aluminum stays.

Re the Six Moon Designs Starlite--I have its little brother, the Comet (since discontinued). I've carried up to 37 lbs comfortably in it (with the stays). Well, my shoulders, back and hips were comfortable--my knees and feet were screaming! But it will definitely carry up to the 35 lbs. that Six Moon Designs says it will!

Have either of you used your SMD pack without the stays? I did not order any for mine when I bought the Starlight a year ago.

If you are ever going out in mandated bear canister territory, you can choose from the Bare Boxer, the Bearikade (Wild Ideas), Bear Vault, Garcia, or the Bear Keg (yellow one, sold at rei). My personal favorite is the Bearikade with the best can weight to volume ratio - more room, weighs less than the competition - but for overnight - 3 day trips the Bare Boxer Contender is smallest, cheapest and most economical.

I have a Contender and a BV solo, and for longer trips (which occur less often) I rent a Bearikade through the mail. They send it to you, you get it a few days before the trip and pack it, go on the trip, get home, unpack, mail it back to them - they charge you only for the days you are on trail. Best of both worlds. When I go somewhere outside bear canister territory, I simply hang the food/trash in a bag, for the lightest of all solutions.

I have an REI Jet UL (older model) that's very similar to the REI 75 - would never get the backpack. I wouldn't like it, judging from the fit of the daypack. I watched someone suffer for three days on the trail with an older version of the REI Flash 65, stuffing clothing under the straps and around his hips trying to make it comfortable. If you are carrying more than 30 lbs in the pack, get something with a better suspension.

Which is a good question, actually - how much does your gear weigh? A lot of packs have a weight limit.

I would never use the SMD pack without the stays because my shoulders are very pressure sensitive, so I badly need the load lifters. Even with an 8 lb. day pack, I need some kind of a frame and a hip belt.

You can order the stays separately from SMD if you want them.

I had the same question and pretty much the same situation a couple of weeks ago. I really wanted a backpack but I knew the fit needed to be right. Went to REI and Tried a bunch on with weight. Ended up buying the REI Flash 65 because it fit and felt the best. Just got back from a 5 day trip in Costa Rica, now I didn't backpack the whole trip however did get some good time with my pack on and it felt great, also held all that I needed and more. I did however have to take the boots I recently purchased back due to them not fitting just right. It's a process but its well worth it and I can't wait to finally have all my gear. Good luck

Well last time I went the gear weighed 40lbs. I anticipate that number going down with the proper gear even though I will be carrying some food this time. My last trip I also took two water bottles (1 gatorade) of whcih I drank first to reduce weight. I also took an orange and 2 plums of which I also ate first. So I was packing pretty heavy not to mention the 5lb bag of gronola (lol not really but it was big). I want to stay around 35 at the most.
the tent is 5lbs the bag is 2 lbs and vautl is 1? lb and the pad is 1 lb.

I apprecaite all the help. So far the only thing I have purchased it the bag.

If you're talking about 35 pounds as a base weight (no food, water, or fuel), you might be pushing yourself into a category of very stout, cushioned, and heavy packs, depending on how much food and water you're taking along! Not sure how all the packs you listed will do for large loads; might check with the manufacturer website to see if they have weight recommendations.

But to answer your original question about bringing actual gear in to fit backpacks, yes I do think it matters. For one, it's almost useless to test a backpack without weight in it; you just can't get a good idea of comfort with an empty pack. Second, I like to test with my gear because the sandbags most places will use will all just end up at the bottom of the pack with filling to stretch out the compartments, placing all the weight at the bottom. That runs counter to how I normally pack my items (medium, heavy, light from the bottom of the pack up). Third, I like to check that the gear I'm taking will actually fit into the bag in a convenient way; for example, I've heard that several of Osprey's packs need some tinkering with packing to get the true volume out of it. Doing that tinkering with your gear lets you see if the way you pack it will be comfortable all day.

That's my preference, anyway. Hope it helps.

That's a lot of gear for a light weight pack. I have a 3 lb pack that's rated for 40 lbs at most, and it's not comfortable with that much - I only did it on a long trip, as the gear I have stays the same, it was only the food weight that increased, and within two days the weight dropped to the point that it was comfortable again.

And my pack has a sturdier frame than any of the packs you're talking about.

It matters a lot to put your gear in the pack - it matters to be able to balance the load properly within the pack, which you cannot do with pillows and sand bags. You need the bear canister and the rest to fit in the pack and have it ride comfortably. The only way to test that it works is to do it with the gear you intend to take.

I started with a North Face Terra, moved on to an Osprey, and landed firmly in Granite Gear when the first two failed for me. It needs to work without discomfort. Trying it on in stores did me no good and I ended up selling them second hand, because I did not take in my gear and try them out.

Don't skimp on pack suspension if you are starting out heavy - Granite Gear is IMO a good bridge between heavier and lighter loads as you are working the weight down. Another one you might look at would be Deuter - not as pricey as Osprey etc but a decent suspension system.

+1. Granite Gear packs have great suspension for hauling heavier loads. I use their Nimbus Meridian as my winter pack when I need the extra support.

I fully agree about taking your gear with you if you can. To be right for you, a pack must do two things: it must be able to handle the weight, and it must work with your gear.

I've rejected some packs simply because my gear didn't load into it conveniently. The Gregory Z55 (and its ancestor, the G Pack) doesn't have side pockets; it has a "shove-it" pocket that runs all the way around 3 sides - which meant I had no place for my water bottle, because it kept sliding around. The orginal Osprey Atmos 50 had a curved shape that was so radical that I couldn't put my tent poles inside the pack. There was another pack whose lid was large, but divided into 3 compartments - and none was large enough for a map.

Definitely, take your own gear with you.

I have a Deuter ACT Zero 60+10 that I really like; I also had an ACT Lite 50+10 that was good. The best feature is that they have an adjustable torso length. Granite Gear also offers this (but not in the Vapor Trail.) In a fixed-length pack, if it's too long or too short, there's nothing you can do.

A few more things to note about Granite Gear: you may have to order it if you are not near a store that carries them. Order from a place that offers a good return policy and this will not be an issue. I ordered a Nimbus Ozone sight unseen - had it come with the wrong belt or straps I could have contacted Granite Gear directly and shipped it to them, and they would have replaced with whatever I wanted - men's , womens's, heavier padding, lighter padding, etc. - and sent it back to me. The straps can be adjusted to fit the length of your back precisely with a screwdriver.

The only place I know where you can try on every single Granite Gear pack, as well as all the Osprey packs, and quite a few of the ULA packs, is at the Down Works in Santa Cruz. You can also look at Western Mountaineering and Montbell clothing and sleeping bags, Caldera Cones, and other equipment you can't find in big box stores. The folks who run it are backpackers too and quite selective in what they have. The first question I was asked - "what gear do you have?" - resulted in a lot of head nodding as I named off cottage gear manufacturers - these folks know their stuff.

I had a Nimbus Ozone, but couldn't get it to fit right. The maximum length adjustment was about half an inch short (same problem I had with the Deuter ACT Lite.) Both worked OK, but I just never quite got that perfect fit.

Great pack, though.

Above about 28lbs total weight, I switch from a Granite Gear Vapor Trail to a Osprey Aether. Both fit me well. Both are very comfortable to wear but I'd much rather cary the Vapor Trail because it means I am carrying a lighter weight.

Sorry for not clarifying, I was hoping for 35lbs to be my total weight.

x2 on the Deuter packs.

I personally prefer packs that have a separate sleeping bag compartment, although I don't use it for a sleeping bag. Any damp gear - ground cloth, tent, fly, rain gear, socks, water filter etc go into the bottom pocket where they can retrieved and spread out to dry while taking a lunch break (or nap). And you can retrieve and set up the tent in the rain without having to open up the main compartment and drag everything out.

If you solo and most of your trips in the Sierra are 2-4 days I think you will be fine with the small bear cannister. You can always rent a Garcia at the trailhead for the occasional longer trips. If you are always going to be with a group, the the 2-4 day food for 2 people will be right for a regular size bear cannister. Two people carrying one regular size bear cannister is less weight then both carrying a small cannister. If one person carried tent, fuel, and cook gear and the other the bear cannister and food, that is somewhat an even load for each for both weight and bulk.

If you only go out a few times a year in places that require a bear cannnister, I would rent the bear cannister.

Gregory z65 2010 model awsome backpack well worth it