This coming weekend (Oct 3-4), I will be leading a group of 5 youngish scouts and 3 adults. Two to the adults have backpacking experience. We are planning on going to the Sierra, and spending the night at about 7600 feet.

The question- this is the first backpacking trip for 3 of the 5 scouts, ages are about 11 years old. It is predicted to be from 33 to 24 degrees this Saturday night, maybe snow flurries depending on which weather web site you believe.

I have warned the parents about the predicted cold temperatures, and told them to be sure their sons have warm clothes for wearing at night, and a cap/beanie (fleece) for their head and also gloves and socks for in the sleeping bag.

I want the scouts to enjoy the trip, and not be turned off to backpacking.

Any suggestions on how to be sure the scouts are warm and have a good time on this trip?

Thanks!!

Don

Almost everytime I have been cold on a trip the problem was not enough insulation under me. Sit pads for around camp are important. In the snow stand on pads.

Next problem is not eating and drinking enough.

Next is getting too tired.

Next is hat and gloves.

When everything else is in place then sleeping bag ratings begin to seem more reasonable.

Good tips from food!
For beginner 11 year olds, usually a short first trip is nice; like no more than 5 miles. Any longer and they get turned off later.

Hopefully they wear something besides jeans; they attract cold and weight.

And if you can find out what their favorite outdoor game is and adapt it to where you’re going, that would be like frosting on the cake for them.

Good luck!

-Barry

Well--- the trip will be a little less than 4 miles one way. The scouts and parents have been told NO cotton!!!

Maybe I should bring instant chocolate for just before bed.

They have been told about sleeping pads, but I don't yet know what they have.

Will look into what games they like!

Thanks!

Don

Yes. Also remember that you will be colder at night if you haven't eaten recently. As someone who sleeps outside in much colder weather than that, realize that if you feed them at 5 or 6 pm, and they are going to bed at 10 pm, they will be more likely to get cold. Hot chocolate and a sizable snack before bed will help them stay warm at night.



You don't need a lot of pad for that sort of weather, but you will need something. They'll definately need something to sit on. My square of blue foam that is my standing/sitting butt pad is my best friend in the snow.

Make sure everyone has a pair of dry warm sleeping socks, and sleeping clothing - and keeps it that way. A toque (fleece hat, etc.) will contribute the most to keeping them warm at night.

This advice only comes from what I have experienced as a Scout Master.

You MUST have a shakedown the day before. That would be tonight. (Oh wait, tomorrow night). If you do not have a shakedown, I guarantee that more than half the boys will NOT have what you told them to have. They will also all show up in jeans, including adults. You also need time to compensate for what they miss. I have a bunch of closed cell foam mattresses. If one boy shows up without one, I can loan him it. If one shows up with a bad sleeping bag, I can loan him it. I can't do this right before we leave, or after we have left. You must find out everything they are carrying the night before.

Two things are certain with scouts:
1. They don't listen to anything you tell them,
2. They don't read anything you give them.

Their parents, for some reason, don't either.

A shakedown will mitigate this problem. I have always been very happy that I held one.

I agree about not reading- often the paper with the message is left behind after the meeting.

Shakedown- yes, we are all meeting Friday after work at the troop shed to go through each scout's pack, to be sure all items are present and as required, and crew gear and food distributed. We will then put the checked out pack in the back of a truck, where it will be locked up until we meet Saturday morning to start the trip. Hopefully this will give time to get things right for the trip.

We ask them to come to the shakedown in their hiking clothes. Some do, some don't. Grumble----

E-mail direct to the parents seems to help a bit with the communication problem with the parents. At least they can't say they did not get the message. Acting on it is another matter.

Thanks for the thoughts

Don

The only thing I might add is that you could bring some "Hot Hands" along with you. One for each person per night.

They're now included in my essential gear list. When it's cold I toss a "Body Warmer" in my sleeping bag about 1/2 hour before getting in and they help keep me warm all night.

Break them out as a surprise with the hot cocoa when they start grumbling about the cold and the scouts will think your a genius

any old sleeping pad is not enough. realize that many inflatable (non insulated) sleeping pads have an r-value of 1. thermarest ridge rest is light, cheap ($25), and good insulating at an r-value of 2.6

check the cold rating of the bags they bring. many people at home just have a 50 degree bag for friend's sleepovers, and may not realize how little that will do for them at 20 degrees.

it's not enough to say no cotton - they must utilize layers - base layer, big socks, insulating layer, and a shell.

+1 for hot hands and other such chemical warmers - they can be activated and tossed in the sleeping bag with a cold scout to help warm them up.

wool socks only - wool insulates even when wet (in case someone's "waterproof" boot/shoe leaks)

have the scouts go to bed an hour before the adults, and watch for shivering scouts so that you can intervene early. recognize before you go on how to layer their sleep system in case it's not warm enough (e.g. don't lay stuff on top of their bags causing the insulation to become compressed).

I realize in hindsight that because me, my scoutmaster, and parents either ignored, neglected, or were ignorant of these safeguards, I came close to dying at around 12 or 13 years old on a winter camp.

Don, sent you a PM. Look for the icon next to My Stuff on the tool bar.

Tom

Thank you, have returned your PM

Don

To produce metabolic heat have the boys eat calorie dense carbs throughout day. Be careful of over exertion which leads to burning glucose and glycogen. Better to take your time and eat several times during day...

....AND WHATEVER YOU DO, DO NOT LET THE BOYS GO TO BED COLD.

If they go to bed cold they will most likely stay cold, wake up cold and be generally misrable. Before bed get them jumping up and down or some sort of exercise to increase their little heart rates and metabolism to generate internal heat.

Have fun

Bluesdog

All-

We have decided to solve the problem by changing the location to a camp at about 4600 ft elevation, rather that the original plan of 7600 ft elevation. The lows at 4600ft are expected to be about 40 degrees, which will be MUCH easier to work with than the 25-28 degrees expected at 7600ft.

So thank you all for your suggestions, I'm sure they will be useful as the scouts gain experience and can handle cold weather better.

And a BIG thank you to those who suggested that cold and very young scouts is not a good mix

Don

The big challenge for kids and cold weather camping is probably convincing parents to spend the bucks it will take to properly outfit a growing kid. Unfortunately warm clothes for camping aren't cheap. Setting up a system to recycle outerwear among growing kids in a Scout troop would seem to be an idea worth exploring-things like gloves, parkas, even boots could be passed along to younger kids.

Oufitting can be done on the cheap with some judicious shopping and patience. That parka in my avatar? eBay, half retail, like new. A class for parents on how to shop for kids would make a good Scout project.

I think Tom really nailed it here. I don't know that it's not so much that young scouts can't do cold weather. I think it's more of just not understanding and/or appreciating what's involved. A gear recycling system is an awesome idea too. Great motivation for some fundraising.

I think Food hit all my high points. I know the problem in our troop with a campout in weather that cold would be gear; it's almost impossible to get the parent's to pony up enough money to buy quality gear that will allow a good experience. Most of them have no trouble dropping $150 on an Air Nike inflatable football helmet though.

This is why I try not to mix backpacking with cold camping with the scouts. We do summer and almost fall backpacking, and then car camping for the winter months.

Winter fine - but 32 to 24 at night? Good lord, I get those temps year round! That is *not* that cold.. Yes, it's cold, but it hardly counts as winter winter..

It doesn't generally get much colder than that here in the winter, and I like my winters that way, thank you very much.

And hey, I've seen some recent pics of you here, phat, and you aren't going to have as much insulation this winter as you've been used to, so that cold might get a little closer to the bone now

I just thought I would post the results of our weekend hike with the Scouts. This was intended to be a shoulder season first backpacking trip for some new scouts, rather that a full-on cold weather camping expedition. This is why we moved the destination from a 7600 foot elevation lake to a 4600 foot elevation lake, as suggested by some of you.

Anyway- this is what we did:

It turned out to be a very nice trip. Saturday was beautiful, sunny and warm. The hike in was easy, although route finding was a bit of a challenge as the Forest service has not maintained the trail for many years, so there were lots of blow downs over the trail, and alternate trails which are not on the map. It was almost a full moon Saturday night, about 48 degrees when we went to bed. All the scouts were told it would be cold, and to bring warm clothing. When we turned in at about 10 pm, it was becoming rather cloudy.

At 1:45am I awoke to snow/rain/hail on the tent, and it was coming down pretty hard. After the first round of precip, there was about a 1/4 inch of something white on the ground, snow or small hail.

It was mostly gone by morning, and the rain/hail/snow had become occasional showers. It got down to about 33 degrees outside the tent that night. (I took my indoor/outdoor max/min thermometer along) All the scouts did fine, we got up about 6:45, had breakfast, some of the scouts went fishing for a while, and then we broke camp and went home. As we were hiking out, the snow/hail showers continued, but were not a problem.

So- thank you all for your suggestions, the trip came out fine!!

Don

Thanks Don for the trip report. Sounds like you made a wise choice and all had a good experience in spite of the overnight weather. I wonder what it was like up higher. A lot nastier is my guess.

Nice! glad it worked out for you and the kids.