Many of you will run into a section of trail that is snowy or icey and steep [exposed]. What do you do?

A buddy of mine slipped on a 45 degree snow slope one June and dug in his fingers and slid about 75 feet until he stopped, at the bottom of the snow pile. He could not stop himself even on such an easy snow field - what if there had been a cliff at the bottom instead of a nice grassy valley floor?

I once slipped on a high snow field and slid all the way to the bottom of the mountain at over 60 mph with my pack on and stopped uninjured after steering sround rock outcroppings and forest. After that I spent some time contmplating crossing snowy slopes more safely. Well now I know we were on an avolanche slope anyway. DO YOU KNOW WHAT AN AVOLANCHE SLOPE IS AND CAN YOU IDENTIFY ONE?

SO HOW DO YOU STOP? Remember that what you do in the first couple of seconds MAY determine your survival. You must arrest the downward slide before you gain momentum or it will be a ride to the bottom.

Many people carry poles. If you slip, grab the handle of one pole firmly in your hand while sliding the other hand down that pole to right above the bale [the round thingy on the end] and dig the point into the snow while pressing down with both hands - the idea is to use the carbide tip of your pole to dig in and stop you - hang on tightly to the pole. This technique is used in extreme skiing to get your skis below you after a fall so that you may continue to ski vs roll. It works much better than plastic iceaxe handles for your poles - I discarded mine.

After the pole thing, the next thing up is a light ice axe meant for serious self arrest but not really for climbing - mine is a grivel airtech weighing around 16 ounces with a rubber coated shaft - which keeps your hands a lot warmer. Learning to use a ice axe for self arrest is not hard but its best if someone shows you that understands the pit falls. Basically the head of the axe is tightly held in one hand just below your chin level while the other hand slides down the shaft of the axe and holds the head in the ice at the correct angle. The chin hand forces the blade down into the ice with your weight on it.

After an iceaxe, crampons, microspikes or other foot traction device [skis] become the next level up in protection. You can die wearing crampons without an iceaxe [because it can make you flip], so the iceaxe is required for crampons use. Crampons and traction devices help you climb and hopefully prevent slips. which you will arrest with the axe. An axe and crampons is the safest, however many will attest that crampons can be more dangerous to your health than a grizzly bear or a chainsaw. Just kick yourself sometime wearing front points...

A hiking staff could also work if used properly - especially with a metal tip - and again - practice BEFORE your life depends on your reaction time. I guess theres an attitude thing here - I LOVE to do EXTREMELY DANGEROUS things in the mountains - solo rock climbing, etc, and I am prepared for the worst and I call it fun and the worse it gets the more fun it is. Others will be happier preparing for more gentle pursuits. There is no need to be extreme to have fun, but when the gentle situation goes to extreme, I will be having fun sort of safely while others will be a very bad way.

Jim

That is some great advice Jim. But how do you not start sliding in the first place? I have walked across a few steep snow banks with scouts. One thing I have notices is that they need to be taught how to walk. It is not inherent nature. What I do is walk on the edge of my shoes instead of planting a flat sole on the snow.

And it helps if the leader kicks steps in the snow to create a flatter platform for those who follow.

OF course, the other thing left out of the OP is the exposure. If you are going to slide down ten feet into a snowbank, no real worries. If the snow ends 150 feet below on large pointy rocks, you need to exercise considerably more caution.

I don't think I've run across a spot in the Ozarks where you could slide even 30 ft without running into trees and sharp jagged rocks.

Because of that, I suppose Jim probably wouldn't have as much fun as he's used to here.

Good stuff, Jim. I learned self-arrest in the Cascades--on my back and stomach, feet-first and head-first--and was fairly competent at it. But I no longer trust myself to react automatically because I haven't practiced in decades. Safe snowfields in Washington are far more common than in California.

Cheers,

At least you get snow to slide on. Don't think self-arrest will be much of a problem in the 4-inch snowfalls we get in Ohio.

(Jim - I'm not trying to trivialize your post; I thought it was very well-written and informative. I'm just messin' with Bill a bit.)

Glenn, do you even have anything big enough for the snow to fall on, and then someone to slid down on, there in Ohio?

Well, we do have a few bank barns...

Actually, in southeastern Ohio, we've got some sizable hills where, if we got enough snow, you could slide - but then, like Bill said, you'd stop (senseless) after about 10 feet of ricocheting off trees.

There are also some trails built along the edge of a ravine that, in places, a fall and 5 foot slide could pitch you over the edge for about a 50 to 75 foot drop. As I understand it, that's not much different than a 1500 foot drop: it's the last 10 feet that cause all the problems on either one.

Around here, it's not so much snow depth as worn trails that cause the problem. Lots of trails, going straight up and over a hill, tend to get eroded. As a result, they hold water in pools. A cold January rain, freezing on such trails, can make things dicey. I cut a trip short last winter, on the AT in Virginia, when I encountered trails that were sheet ice for 40 or 50 feet, then snow-covered, then muddy. (Which type you got depended on sun and shade.) After two of us fell for the third time each on a wide, flat area (narrowly missing banging our heads on the boulders on each side), we decided we didn't really need to see what would happen on the part that ran along the top edge of a steep-walled ravine, and bailed out.

But no, there's really nothing around here big enough, nor is there enough snow, to make self-arrest a necessary skill.

Hey
I'm from Illinois originally but I've lived in the mountains for long enough that I forgot its pretty flat where many people encounter snow, whereas here snow means high means steep.

SPECIAL NOTE - slippery nylon clothes can cause you slide off the mountain, whereas the wool clothes of the European mountaineer stick to the snow somewhat - something to think about.

As far as Boy Scouts
Maybe some training on a short steep hill with an iceaxe would be good, Be sure theres nothing to hit on a runaway. They could then practice to see what foot moves keep them on the hill and which throw them off.

Just to start you stand facing the slope with the axe in arrest position, then they just fall forward and sink the axe into the snow. After a few dry runs they need to be moving. My wife sometimes sits on snow with the axe in it next to her and slides slowly and very much in control. I kinda like to jump off the edge wearing slippery nylon clothes and skid for a while before setting the breaks. Scouts should first learn the conservative approach.

Jim

Jim:

All the flatland stuff was just for fun. I've actually read, and enjoyed, the whole thread. For the audience you originally intended to reach, this is critical information.

The part that caught my attention, and held my interest, was the portion of your original post that talked about what to do if you don't have your ice ax in your hand. (If it's strapped to the pack, you won't have time to get it off.) Since I don't carry an axe, but do carry poles, you got me thinking about what to do if I ever do start to slide.

All kidding aside, I've been in country like the Grayson Highlands of Virginia where there are some slopes that, when covered with ice and snow, could send me sliding toward a creek. Would the ride kill me? Not likely - but what happens when my pack and I take a dunking on a 20-degree day? (Hypothermia springs to mind.) In the woods of Ohio, I may not slide far because of the trees - but what happens when I hit one of those trees at the wrong angle, or with the side of my head (no helmets here)? Unconscious, lying in the snow, perhaps with a broken arm or leg, doesn't sound like fun.

The likelihood of that happening is perhaps one in ten thousand - but your discussion of self arrest with poles got me thinking. Not scared, but more aware than I had been. Thanks.

Two climbers fall in the Andes...

I didn't mean at all to diminish the importance of what Jim is trying to teach here. If your going to play in those kinds of conditions you'd better be practicing technique until you're really damn good at it. Until your instinctively good at it.

I'm not like Jim regarding that love for extreme sports. I've always been on the cautious side. Shoot, my butt puckers just watching climbers, and even seeing photos of them gives me that "Yikes" feeling.

That's a sad story about the two guys in Peru. Apparently that mountain extracts a high toll from those who play around on it.

Thanks for this! Good read!