So as a way of comparison. My minimum basic 4 for a summer bp in the Cascades (dry side) weigh 6 1/8 lb. My complete pack including camera, GPS, water filter and micro-tent, but not including food, water or fuel, weighs 16 pounds even. So (6+1/8)/16 = 40%, or 2.66 times the basic weight for the total. If anyone finds this interesting send us your packs basic divided by total, less food fuel and water.

OUrs is a little different, because we always go as a couple. But the basic info is that our big four is 8.5 pounds per person, and our total pack without food and water is 14.5. That includes fuel. So our big 4 are heavier than yours, but the rest of our kit is lighter.

We've posted the list on the website

Mine runs about 50% of my summer base load (when my extra clothing consists of a pair of socks), and about 40% with my base load at 32-degree temps (midweight long johns, down sweater, balaclava, gloves and such.)

I realise that weather conditions and where you go will make a big difference. I put more weight into my stove and clothes than most people do. But then I don't take a lot of things others carry.
Jim

Interesting question Jim.

My summer backpacking big 4 is 85oz and total (sans food/water) is 181.25oz. (85/181.25)*100 = 46.9%.

Pease define the "big 4"? Tent, pack, sleeping bag --- and what else? Does the pack weight include a rain-cover (or garbage bag) if it is needed to keep the pack contents dry? Does the sleeping bag include the stuffsack or the whole sleeping system including pad?

Generally the 4th item of the "Big 4" is the sleeping pad.

Most gear lists I've seen, including the ones on our Home Page, do not include stuff sacks, dry bags, pack liners, etc. when stating their "Big 4." In other words, those are going to be included in the rest of the weight. Interestingly, I include my tent stuff sack and stakes but not the dry bag for my sleeping bag or my pack cover in my "Big 4." This may have more to do with the way I purchased them than anything else, plus the fact that I've never used the stuff sack that came with my sleeping bag and have long since lost the one that came with my sleeping pad (my pack has a nice internal pad pocket). However, when classifying the items on my gear list, I do include the tent stuff sack and stakes, the dry bag for my sleeping bag and my pack cover with "shelter and sleeping" (the first two) and with "pack" (the last). I also include the dry bag for my insulating clothing with "extra clothing." I also include my dog's pad, which I carry to pad out the back of my pack, in "the sleeping and shelter" category. (He carries the equivalent weight of other items.) Sort of a contradiction, isn't it!

I just went through my proposed gear list for the Wind Rivers this summer and came up with a base weight of 14.5 lbs. This includes fishing tackle and a frying pan (just in case I catch any!).

Out of that, my "Big 4" as most define it are pack, 27 oz. (not including accessories); shelter, 27.2 oz. (includes stuff sack, poles, stakes); sleeping bag (not including the dry bag that contains the sleeping bag and part of my extra clothing) 24.8 oz (that's because I'm short); sleeping pad, 16.9 oz. That's exactly 6 pounds. And that makes the "Big 4" 41% of my base weight.

I think the whole concept of the "Big 4" (or sometimes the "Big 3" without the sleeping pad) is that this area is the obvious place to start saving weight if their total is more than 6-8 lbs. (See the articles on the home page of this site, http://www.backpacking.net/.) Once you get down to that range (and some won't get that far) the weight savings are a lot smaller and often consist of an ounce or two multiplied by a lot of items or in eliminating nonessentials. My big weight savings the past two years have actually been in "skin out" weight, not pack weight, mostly due to switching from boots to trail runners and from heavy aluminum trekking poles to carbon fiber poles. Other savings have been pretty minimal--as I said, an ounce here and half an ounce there.

A few places I refuse to compromise are on insulating clothing (I don't take changes of clothing, except socks, but I want to be warm enough in an alpine blizzard wearing everything I have!) and on my sleeping system, especially the pad (so I get a comfortable night's sleep, which gets more difficult as one's age increases and joints get more sensitive).

For me it's an academic question because my gear list changes and evolves (devolves?) with every trip. I'm always experimenting. For instance, in really warm weather I use a hammock with no sleep pad. My 4 becomes 3. If I carry insulated clothes to sleep in, do they weigh into my sleep system? Is my hammock really a shelter or do I just count the tarp?

Sometimes the lines get blurry, and that's a good thing.

TR
If you sleep in a hammock under a tarp, then your hammock is a "sleeping pad". I think I clearly stated that "everything else (which includes warm clothes)" is included in "Total weight". I for one would really like to know what your B4/T ratio is TR, thanks in advance.
Jim

I think in terms of systems, not items. Some items can be part of more than one system. If I carry heavier clothing to make up for a lighter bag my "big 4" will appear to be lighter, but is it really? If I carry a shovel to dig a snow cave instead of a tent my base weight will appear artificially low. So in a sense that shovel becomes part of my shelter system.

I can't begin to tell you what that ratio is, because it is ever changing. I have weighed each and every piece of gear I own. I have a pretty good idea of each item's weight. But I don't weigh individual items before every trip. I just weigh the total pack and sometimes not even that. I pack for function, not weight. Or maybe more accurately, lightweight function. I know from experience what my pack will weigh within a few pounds. I keep my pack as light as possible but a few pounds either way is not going to slow me down or make me terribly uncomfortable.

I think most of us think in terms of systems. My pack is constantly changing as well, and is very different from season to season or backpacking vs paddling. I keep all my gear on a spreadsheet which becomes my packing list. It calculates my totals for each system, base, and total weight. To answer Jim's question I just pulled up the last saved ss from my last trip.

This is an interesting discussion.

I think looking at the "Big 4" is a good way to start cutting weight and then be able to start trimming in other areas.
Once we have our basic choices down it's a matter of picking the right pieces for the given scenario.

For example, I just got back from a weekend canoe trip to Caddo Lake in East Texas. The daytime temps were in the lower 90's (F), lows at night in the mid 80's, very high humidity and no breeze. I slept in my Claytor jungle hammock (with integrated bug netting) but without the tarp, in my nylon shorts and synthetic t-shirt. I carried the tarp but didn't need it as there was not a chance of rain and plenty of trees for shade.

Two months ago, I was carrying all my "winter" gear (please realize that "winter" here in East Texas is MUCH different that what most on this forum experience). My point is that it weighed about 2-4 lbs more depending on what you want to count (big 4 + sleeping clothes)

I'll have to check my gear lists and see how much difference there is between winter and summer weights and see what percentages the different pieces of gear make up.

Big 4 hammock kit is 7 pounds. Base weight is 17 pounds. 41.176%.

Add all the usual qualifiers. I consider my kit as a system and sometimes substitite clothes for a lighter bag. My kit is never the same - the gear is matched to the trip.

thanks all, as I said, it depends, but anyway we hear so much about "the big 4" that I wanted some kind of number to work with. Like if a new camper has a 8 pound "B4" but their ratio is 33%, they might want to look at lightening the other stuff they are carrying. Or someone might think that the B4 is all they need, and if thei ratio is 75%, they might just be cold or wet on their trip. I realise that all of this stuff is used as part of a sysytem of systems.

My clothes for my summer Cascades list weigh 37% of the total. So one might also say that if everything besides you big 4 and clothes weighs more than 20 to 25% of your pack weight, you might want to examine what it is that you are carrying.
Jim

Hmm. ok for me - my typical "three season rig" canadian rockies:

Pack, Sleeping bag, Hammock, closed cell foam, tarp, and stakes: 2845 grams

Base weight minus fuel, food, water
6586 gr (14 lbs 8 oz)

So I'm looking at about 43% for myself. for my B4.

My typical clothing load looks like aboug 2012 grams, so I'm at about 30 % for clothing. All told big four plus clothing makes up 73 % of my base weight. the rest is "everything else"

To analyze a bit more of the "everything else" that "everything else is 1628 grams.

Bear Spray and Ursack : 360 + 246 grams == 606 grams = 37% of my "everything else"! if not in bear country I can basically turn that into a 30 gram silnylon food bag - dropping a lot of my everything else weight.

PLB 303 grams. I usually take it. There are places where I wouldn't need it.

No bears, and not taking PLB, let's see 360 + 246 + 303 = 909 grams. - my everything else changes from 1628 grams to 719..

Now to go brood on the inherit anal retentiveness that jim has unleashed about my packload

Here are some weights that I have for my average trips less than 9 days length (all that fits into my bear cannister). If I add climbing gear or other heavy or bulky stuff for specific activities, I use my larger pack that adds 0.6 pounds. I really do not use the "basic 4" system. By base weight I mean everything but water, food and gas. For me this is 21 pounds, but of that, only 16.2 pounds is on my back. On-the-back weight is much more important to me than total weight. I hike in relatively cold areas (high altitude) so most of my clothing weight I wear when hiking.

I rarely carry water - lots of water up high. Most of my hiking requires a bear cannister -actually one of my heaviest items. You can also see that once I get into climbing the pack gets heavy! I have lighter trekking poles that I use when someone with stronger hands is along to adjust the poles for me. Solo, I really need the flip-locks. I have used this gear a lot and it is not the lightest, but works for me and I am currently quite happy with this. If I were to win the lottery, I would buy some lighter new stuff!

I get where Jim is going on this concept - If you compare the percent weights for groups of gear you get some idea of where your gear weight priorities are. High priority for me is a hot (not just warm) sleeping bag, yet I am perfectly happy with a half-pound little thin thermarest pad. The heavy pack is simply a matter of economics - I am too cheap to get another until my current pack wears out. To each is own.

From heaviest to lightest:
Not in pack (worn + treck poles)-- 4.6 lb, 22% basewt
Sleep system -- 3.4 lb, 17% basewt
Cook system (incl bear can) -- 3.2 lb, 15% basewt
Pack (incl garbage bag) -- 3.2 lb, 15% basewt
Extra clothing -- 2.7 lb, 13% basewt
Shelter -- 1.9 lb, 9% basewt
FA, maps, safety, personal hygiene -- 1.3 lb, 6% basewt
Book,camera -- 0.5 lb, 2% basewt
food = 1.4 pounds per day
gas= 0.34 pounds per day

Added for other activities:
Fishing gear -- 1 lb
snow (crampons & Iceaxe)-- 2.4 lb
technical rock -- 12.4 lb
"shoulder season" down jacket - 1 lb

Here are my heaviest individual items:
Pack 2.9 lb
10-deg sleeping bag 2.7 lb
Bear-i-Kade cannister 2 lb
Shoes with superfeet (Merrel) 1.8 lb
Tent (TT Moment) 1.8 lb
trekking poles = 1.2 lb (heavy but I need flip-locks)

Interesting--I tried those flick-locks in the store and couldn't manage to work them. I have very little strength in my fingertips (which is why I have to take a knife with pliers, which I use as a substitute when needing to grip with my fingers). On the other hand, I do fine with the twist-lock poles. That just proves that each of us is different!!!