My goal this summer is to lead group backpacking trips and introduce newbies to the sport. I've led three group hikes. Any advice on pitfalls to avoid?

The trips are organized on Meetup.com. So far I've learned:

- Put the rating (easy, moderate, strenuous) in the title. One hike I put elevation gain as feet/mile, with pictures showing how extremely steep the trail is. An overweight man with a backpack twenty pounds heavier than everyone else's showed up, and could barely move up the trail. He's a construction engineer but hadn't understood the feet/mile thing.

- Out-and-backs are simple. Loop hikes have more stuff to go wrong.

- The AT doesn't compare to western trails. The overweight construction engineer had done "two weeks on the most rugged section of the AT." Apparently that was equivalent to an easy hike in Colorado. He was shocked when he saw where trails in Colorado go.

- 90% of backpackers can't read a map or use a GPS. On the first day of a hike, an ultralight backpacker didn't like how slow we were so he took off ahead of the group. He missed a junction and I had to run to catch him, while the group waited 1.5 hours at the junction. On the return day, I told the overweight construction engineer to stay on the trail while we summited a small peak then took an off-trail shortcut. I gave him my map. He got lost and spent an extra night out.

- Some backpackers like to get on the trail around 11am and finish the hike with headlamps.

- Walkie-talkies are really useful. REI has little walkie-talkies for $25/pair that weigh 3 ounces and the batteries last for several hikes. We've found the range is about a half-mile. Garmin has $500 (each) GPS walkie-talkies that show you where the other person is!

- 90% of backpackers are clueless about bears and food. All my trip descriptions say "bearproof food container required." Only once has anyone brought one. One evening I listened to an ultralight backpacker expound at length about the rules about bears and food in Yosemite and on the AT, then he hung his plastic sack from a tree branch. At the trailhead I'd offered to loan him a BearVault but he said these are too heavy to carry.

- 90% of backpackers think that you have to stop when the trail ends. Most of the people I've taken on hikes are amazed and delighted when I show them that you can walk off trails! And most can hike up steep class 3 or 3+ without a problem. On the other hand, the overweight construction engineer was almost killed when the group hiked over a ridge from one valley to the next valley. I told the overweight man to take the trail back to the trailhead but "quit wasn't in his vocabulary!" There was loose rock so I told at everyone to spread out and stay on the sides of the gully, not in the center. The overweight man was well behind the group so was in danger from six people knocking rocks loose. He was following the center of the gully in the chute where rocks would gravitate into. One of the women saw him and yelled at him to move to the side of the gully. A minute later someone knocked a big rock loose. It was going about 100 mph when it went past him, where he'd been standing a minute or two earlier. And if he'd simply lost his footing and fallen he would've rolled 1000 feet. In contrast, I'd brought a circus aerialist who was enjoying every minute of the hike. If she'd fallen her cat-like reflexes would've stopped her.

- Driving back, we'd gotten to the trailhead an hour late due to waiting for the overweight man. The circus aerialist needed to get to an event so I was speeding all the way back. Another man was in the back seat. I didn't notice that he was drinking a beer. If I'd been pulled over for speeding I'd have gotten a big ticket for his open container. I dropped off the circus aerialist at her event, and the man in the back seat said that he was in a hurry too and needed to be dropped off before I went to the kennel for a dog pickup, which was about to close in a few minutes. So I drop him off and he gets her gear out of the back of my Subaru. I'm entering the address of the kennel into my GPS. He waves and says he's got everything. I drive off. Five blocks later I realize that he left the tailgate open.

Overall what I've learned is, if my goal is to climb that peak or complete this loop, go with my regular hiking partner. If my goal is to socialize and meet new people, lead a group hike. In a group you spent as much time waiting for people as you spend hiking. If you look at the pictures people post, a lot of people post pictures of the parking lot, the tents, the group walking on a boring section of trail etc., and never post a picture of a scenic view or spectacular mountain. It's a different kind of a hike.

After all that, you want to take newbies out? We may go down a long trail and sort into two groups, then meet for lunch, break or trail junction/where-do-we-go-from-here?
Duane

We've enjoyed taking a few people out backpacking...but never in large groups. First of all, we don't like meeting large groups in the backcountry, and don't want to make it any worse.

Also, in a large group we are outnumbered....not good.

So we take one or two people along...and have a wonderful time. But they are always people we've met before, often know quite well, and we give them a full review of everything they need to know...and do!

OP, your observations are both hilarious and eye opening. I don't think I've hiked with a large group since I was ten, and I was probably more concerned with boulder jumping than logistics.

On Meetup.com you either get a large group or no one. Everyone wants to go on the trips that everyone else is going on. I've led the same day hike on a weekend with 13 people, then the next weekend, same hike, no one signed up. The pattern I see is that if a young woman signs up early then other women want to go, and men want to go on the hikes with women, and then you get a big group. My last three backpacking trips we had 7-8 people.

In case anyone is wondering, 90% of all statistics are made up.

Your experience with a large group sound about right. Always plan for the low denominator. Unless you know the group well, don't expect to reach any mileage goals.

The pitfalls of leading a group are so egregious that I won't even comment on them.

Roland's law states that when a person makes up statistics, they should make them up as accurately as possible. 89.3% is more believable than 90%.

This.

I joined MeetUp because i want meet new people to have extra hiking partner in-case one can't go etc., but some these large group trips looks like misery!

Roaring Fork,

Hello from Pueblo. Sounds like you had an eventful trip.

I used to hike with the Colorado Mountain Club in Pueblo. They never had any of the serious problems you had. I think if that overweight guy had been injured, you could easily have lost a lawsuit. In today's world, I'd stay away from leading hikes. I see some areas that could use improvement.

Here are some things the CMC did.

1. Before going on the first trip a person had to attend one of the monthly meetings. At the meeting Bill would personally talk to the new member. Bill was in his 70's and had been in the club for decades. He was the leader and could easily detect bullshit.

2. Before going on the first trip, a new person had to go on a hike with Bill. He would hike the route the during the week before taking a group. This rule would be waived if the person could convince Bill they had recent experience in the same type of terrain.

3. They used walkie-talkies, too. NOBODY was allowed to go ahead or lag behind. They would stop for frequent breaks and stop at every trail intersection. The rest breaks started when the last person caught the leader. I was on a hike where one person violated this rule. She was told she couldn't come on anymore hikes.

4. Most routes were out and back. If someone couldn't keep up, an experienced hiker would wait with them until the group returned. I was on one hike with them and made the suggestion to turn everyone around because one person obviously couldn't make it. We invented an excuse about the weather looking too bad to continue so they wouldn't feel bad.

Now for my thoughts. I live in Pueblo and often go hiking/backpacking with my son in the mountains of Colorado.

If you are going to be a leader, your first responsibility is to make sure everyone returns safely. Unfortunately, meetup groups draw all kinds, and it's difficult to enforce the safety decisions that need to be made. I led a motorcycle meetup group for awhile and finally decided it was impossible to keep groups safe. Stepping down as the leader may be the best decision to make. But if you press on with "introducing newbies," then you need to deal with the challenges.

1. A rating tells many people nothing until they have hiked enough trails to have something to compare it to. I found the best indication of difficulty is the total elevation gain and loss during the hike coupled with the distance. 400 feet per mile is where I first start noticing the trail is uphill. 1,000 feet per mile is difficult. 1,500 feet per mile is strenuous. It's not an exact relationship, but I consider 400 fpm to be about 20% harder than level. 1,000 fpm to be twice as hard as level and 1,500 fpm to be three times as hard as level. A person not used to the Colorado mountains will start to get leg cramps if there are more than a couple miles 1,000 fpm or greater. A person who is out of shape probably won't make it.

I finally decided everything in Colorado is uphill and stopped rating hikes for myself.

2. Out and backs are the only way to go unless you know each individual's capabilities. Never choose a trail that starts out downhill. It takes about twice as long to come back up a hill as it does to go down.

3. If you watch the fatality reports in the papers in Colorado, the most common event prior to a fatality is people leaving the trail and leaving another person stay the trail. This is most common above the treeline. It seems to be equally divided as to which ones die.

4. The group was irresponsible by knowingly getting in a position where rocks would tumble into the overweight man.It doesn't matter how disappointing it would have been to stop. A slope needs to be about 30 degrees or more before rocks will tumble like that. This is not a newbie hike.

5. I think Rocky Mountain National Park is the only area in Colorado where bear containers are required. I've never seen a bear in camp outside of developed campgrounds. I hang my food in a bag about 50 yards from the tent and don't worry about it.

6. I seldom see people hiking with maps in Colorado. A compass is even more rare. There are people who know how to use the two together. I read about them in the Colorado Trail section at trailforums.com. I'm directionally dysfunctional, meaning I get lost in WalMart. When I'm on a trail I'm not familiar with, I bring a detailed map with tick-marks every 1/10 of a mile. I prepare these by hand instead of using a computer program as it helps me get familiar with the trail and it's fun for me.

8. Assume people don't know how to read a map even if they say they can. GPS's mystify me, too. I don't use one. Keep the group close enough together so nobody gets lost. Reform the group at ALL trail intersections. This includes game trails that could be mistaken for a trail.

Conclusion: I don't know your experience level. It sounds like you are a strong hiker. It also sounds like you could use some experience being a follower in an established hiking group. Group dynamics can get "interesting" when there are more than three people who don't know each other. An experienced hiker may be too far removed from newbie difficulties to successfully lead a hike without careful thought. A simple series of switchbacks that climbs 1,000 feet in a mile can exhaust a newbie. The experienced hiker will hardly notice it. If you want to see this in action, go to Devil's Head on the weekend and watch the people on the trail. It's only 0.8 miles and it wears out most people.

Now for my own short story. I joined a meetup group called "The High Country Hiking club." I missed the initials "THC." At every stop everyone but me would light their bowls.

Unless I've missed something I'm wondering what constitutes a "large" group? What were your numbers on this hike? For what it's worth I've seen some MeetUp groups that do limit the number of people who can attend a trip. I only joined a group about a month ago but from what I've seen it is possible to keep your numbers down.

As for introducing newcomers to the backcountry, for years I led guided trips for the Appalachian Mt. Club in both the Catskill & Adirondack regions of NYS. After one incident with a very overweight individual I made it clear to them that I reserved the right to turn someone away at the trailhead. There's no reason to put anyone at risk when you find a person isn't qualified (be it a physical qualification, lack of proper equipment, etc.)to be on a trip you're leading. If the group can't accept that then I wouldn't lead for them again. Remember, you're the one who will ultimately be held responsible if something goes wrong; regardless of what you've done to prevent it. Bottom line, people can be stupid and some people are really stupid! Sorry to sound so negative but after 40+ years of guiding beginners and other groups that's just a fact of life that can't be denied. If you don't want to deal with folks like this in the future than I'd suggest you not lead groups of people you don't know.

That's all for now. Take care and until next time...Be well.

snapper

The dilemma is that newbies, especially women, prefer to go with a group; yet groups are difficult to control.

Last weekend a young woman came with us. She's a professional circus aerialist, had just arrived from sea level, had never been backpacking, had no problems, and loved every minute of the trip. She especially liked the camaraderie, the campfire, the stargazing and watching meteors, etc.

We met a professional guide with a couple (clients) on their first backpacking trip. They joined our campfire and happily spent the evening with us.

There are pluses to group hikes. I mentioned some minuses above. I don't see how to exclude the minus people without losing the plus people.

I like the idea of telling overweight people to go home at the trailhead! Maybe because it's so politically incorrect! :-)

But where would you draw the line on overweight? Two examples:

I've backpacked for years without problems. At one point I was 30 pounds overweight, now I'm about 5. Can I go with you?

Helped lead a trip last year that included a guy who was about 50 pounds overweight, out of shape (even for overweight), and showed up with a 50 pound pack. We showed him how to get it down to about 35 ("A lawn chair? Are you sure?"). It was easy to moderate terrain, so we let him go. He was slow, but knew his limits, and there were 3 of us leading the group, so we just took turns hiking with him and a couple of older, slower hikers. Everyone had a great time, the overweight guy couldn't wait to go again - and the upshot is he now is motivated to lose weight and has an activity that can help him do it ("Take training hikes with your pack every weekend, and go out walking every night to build up your legs and wind." )

Multiple leaders (one leader, plus an assistant leader for every 4-6 participants, is a good rule - as the Boy Scouts figured out quite a while back.

I've had other trips go straight into the toilet with young, fit hikers (hidden agendas and behavioral issues), too. There is no right or wrong answer to the question of whether you'd go on another group trip.