Yeah, I figured as much; you are too much of an old desert rat to head out w/o enough water. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I usually do the stretch from the rim to Indian Gardens with a liter or less (to save the knees), tank up at the top and at the Resthouse and then load up my jugs at Indian Gardens for any trip on the Tonto. The same on the Hermit Trail; I drink up at Hermits Rest then again at Santa Maria Springs and then load up at Hermit Camp.