Couple thoughts (and some fuel for the fire - we'll probably have to agree to disagree):

- If I wanted backpacking to suck, I would have joined the Army or Marine Corps. Not/Not a criticism of my brothers in arms; just a tactical fact of life they have to deal with in any weather combat operations.

- If I'm leading a group, I'm responsible even if I'm not liable. There is a distinction there.

- If I take your minor child out, I'm certainly responsible for their well being. I'm probably also liable if something I could control goes wrong.

- I agree that teamwork in a group setting is EVERYTHING.

- I will NEVER go out in the outdoors with some of the men in church again. We went on an afternoon kayak outing, and the "leaders" left a buddy and I behind. The other guy didn't know what he was doing and capsized (shouldn't have been there, and I didn't know in advance). I wasn't formally responsible, but because I was there I had to rescue him, get him sorted out, and head back. I don't trust either the formally designated leader of the outing or the tail end charlie now. They left us, and I may never trust them again.

Lori, it is a matter of style but I would be very uncomfortable going out in a group as you describe it. You may disagree (and I look forward to reading your response) but I think that going out in a group involves a compact that, at minimum, includes the obligation to render aid in case of emergency or equipment failure. Otherwise, why bother with the extra effort involved in having a group?

I've both rendered and been given aid: carrying an exhausted kid's gear up a mountain, and having mine carried when I blew an ankle; giving stove fuel to a stranger when his spilled, and borrowing another guy's stove when my stove failed. I could have bailed myself out in either situation where my "stuff" failed (I had fire starter and ankle wrap), but I was part of a group - and groups succeed or fail on how committed each member is to helping the others succeed in the group's common goals. This also, by the way, meant that when I found I could walk, and took my own load back after a mile or so, that I had to eat Motrin and finish the hike. It goes both ways.

Sorry this came out so messy. I look forward to reading your thoughts.


Steadman