Backcountry Forum
Backpacking & Hiking Gear

Backcountry Forum
Our long-time Sponsor - the leading source for ultralite/lightweight outdoor gear
 
 
 

Amazon.com
Backpacking Forums
---- Our Gear Store ----
The Lightweight Gear Store
 
 WINTER CAMPING 

Shelters
Bivy Bags
Sleeping Bags
Sleeping Pads
Snow Sports
Winter Kitchen

 SNOWSPORTS 

Snowshoes
Avalanche Gear
Skins
Hats, Gloves, & Gaiters
Accessories

 ULTRA-LIGHT 

Ultralight Backpacks
Ultralight Bivy Sacks
Ultralight Shelters
Ultralight Tarps
Ultralight Tents
Ultralight Raingear
Ultralight Stoves & Cookware
Ultralight Down Sleeping Bags
Ultralight Synthetic Sleep Bags
Ultralight Apparel


the Titanium Page
WM Extremelite Sleeping Bags

 CAMPING & HIKING 

Backpacks
Tents
Sleeping Bags
Hydration
Kitchen
Accessories

 CLIMBING 

Ropes & Cordage
Protection & Hardware
Carabiners & Quickdraws
Climbing Packs & Bags
Big Wall
Rescue & Industrial

 MEN'S APPAREL 

Jackets
Shirts
Baselayer
Headwear
Gloves
Accessories

 WOMEN'S APPAREL 

Jackets
Shirts
Baselayer
Headwear
Gloves
Accessories

 FOOTWEAR 

Men's Footwear
Women's Footwear

 CLEARANCE 

Backpacks
Mens Apparel
Womens Apparel
Climbing
Footwear
Accessories

 BRANDS 

Black Diamond
Granite Gear
La Sportiva
Osprey
Smartwool

 WAYS TO SHOP 

Sale
Clearance
Top Brands
All Brands

 Backpacking Equipment 

Shelters
BackPacks
Sleeping Bags
Water Treatment
Kitchen
Hydration
Climbing


 Backcountry Gear Clearance

Page 2 of 2 < 1 2
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#99169 - 07/09/08 10:14 AM Re: quick question when tarping in areas with bear [Re: JAK]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
If we ever start living sustainably, as we should, it's actually going to get even more complicated to decide how to go about it, not less. Where do we encroach? How do we encroach? What is natural? What is traditional? What is most desirable? What are all the principles that apply? How do we decide which principles over-ride others in any given situation? Who wins? Who loses?

We all more or less agree to separate Church and State and Nature?
The real question is how?

Top
#99170 - 07/09/08 10:32 PM Re: quick question when tarping in areas with bear [Re: JAK]
johndavid Offline
member

Registered: 04/23/08
Posts: 260
Loc: jersey city NJ
If I had to deal with brown bears on a continuing basis around my home, I'd upgrade my shotgun collection... And the Winner Is?????.....Me for sure....Always, I'd hope.

That's one kind of "sustainability" that I can relate to. There are also others that I like.

Almost certainly, my personal solution would be the same for black bears....

Of course, I'm just talking tough here. Not lusting to kill or anything like that...

And these two species are VERY different in their agressiveness and orneriness, NOT LEAST regarding backpacking considerations.

Ought somebody live in brown bear habitat? Well, I certainly don't know, but maybe this in itself isn't totally responsible. I'm certainly not going to condem a quarter million-plus residents of Anchorage on this account.

(MUCH stricter local zoning laws in Anchorage are needed --despite the remarkable strength of right-wing "property rights" advocates in that state.)

I happen to live in a large metro area, NOT particularly by choice. By mere happy coincidence, this doesn't contribute to sprawl and I don't much use a car and am not directly affected by gasoline prices. I'm certainly not battling bears.

I fully expect that for reasons I don't really control, I'll never live in bear habitiat. As a visitor, the question is in theory, if not otherwise, different.

Top
#99171 - 07/10/08 04:55 AM Re: quick question when tarping in areas with bear [Re: phat]
chaz Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Tennessee
After reading this post and having no interaction with bears, I'm definatly rigging a tarp several hundred feet from my sleeping set up. I usually don't carry food that is too pungent an odor,except maybe some jerky sealed in it's package. (i may rethink that) But I will increase my overall weight with my 45cal. next trip.
BTW when I was camping last trip, I heard hunters blasting away at deer and that night I was awaken by what sounded like a pack of dogs chasing and killing something probably about 200 to 300 yards away. Something got chased down, killed and eaten. Couldn't tell from the yapping what kinda dogs they were.
_________________________
Enjoy your next trip...

Top
#99172 - 07/10/08 08:22 AM Re: quick question when tarping in areas with bear [Re: chaz]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada

I think the thread has kind of mutated from the OP's intention, and that of my reply, which is to
encourage people to think about it and be responsible in how they choose to camp in bear country. without having to be paranoid about it (i.e. sealing themselves in an aloksack and/or eating in a boy-in-a-bubble setup, bringing along an anti-bear MPLS system, etc.)

The basics are real simple, keep sleeping area away from cooking and eating, and away from food storage, stow your foor properly, and make some noise while you hike. and really, that should be all you need do.

The reason I say it's more for the bear's safety than mine, is the most likely outcome of an encounter in camp if I don't follow the rules, will be a bear gets my food bag. Once the bear
starts taking a hiker's food bag, it becomes conditioned, and means it's gonna get shot. The next most likely long term outcome, is I end up having to hike with a freaking can on my pack when they bring in bear canister requirements because they give up and decide hikers are too busy worrying about what ammunition to carry to john wayne down a charging grizzly in an appropriately manly fashion rather than ensuring they do the right thing to just avoid a problem in the first place.

I live and hike with grizzlies as well as black bears, and frankly, as I mentioned we have a lot more tourists than bears. Unlike California, we still *have* our grizzlies, and I'd really not like to see them dissappear from our mountains. I'd certainly not like to see *any* bear get shot due to my hiking activity.

And please don't call me anti-gun, or a tree hugger more worried about the bear than myself. I've shot my way into A class IPSC competitions and have placed as high as 3rd in the province here. I've probably run more high powered handgun rounds downrange than I bet most of the people on this board have, and there's a lot of places here where if I thought a handgun was appropriate, I'd carry it, legal or not (it is not legal to do so in canada, so of course I haven't) I know what it takes with a firearm, and I know what it takes with bear spray. I carry spray - It's lighter, and on the whole when you consider the accuracy requirements for it to be effective at all, it's a heck of a lot more effective.

Notwithstanding that, the chances of you ever haviing to *use* the spray are very low. I never have. ESPECIALLY if you are doing the right thing, like the original topic, when in the boonies. (as Earthling's .sig says - Pepper spray ain't brains in a can) Bear safety is not all about preparing for the ultimate man versus beast showdown. It is about a little ounce of prevention to keep everyone (including the bear!) safe in the usual encounter scenarios. I have had MANY bear
encounters. never anything problematic.

Now yes, very occasionaly predatory bear attacks occur. They are extremely rare. Yes, perhaps on the off chance I was every targeted by one I might wish I had my M-14 with a 20 round stick of 220grain nosler partitions instead of my bear spray. In complete honesty, the chances of that every happening rank somewhere below me being propositioned to share a hot evening of naked fun in a 3 man tent with two twenty something hiker chicks while on the trail. So, frankly, before
I even think about the weight of a gun, at least I'd have a comb for my back hair in my pack (I don't) I'd also just stop going hiking at all because there would be such a giant chance of me
dying:

1) on the road to work thinking about hiking
2) on the road to the trail
3) From eating a gas station bathroom egg salad sandwitch at a stop on the way to the trail.
...
5000) from me breaking a leg on the trail and dying of exposure
....
5,000,000) from a rock pinning my arm in a crack and my knife being too dull for me to cut my arm off and walk out because I left my knife at home and borrowed one from Jim Shaw.
....
18,789.293,090) From the above mentioned proposition happening on the trail and my having a spontaneous heart attack from the shock of it.
18,789.293,091) from my wife finding out about the hiker chix above and the resultant amateur surgery to my nether regions with a butter knife becoming septic, etc. etc..
...
18,789,293,091 + N) Oh gosh I might get eaten by a grizzly that is determined to eat me in spite of proper bear safety and my bear spray won't chase him off. Better pack my 11.5 pounds of gun....

This does not mean you don't take sensible precautions to prevent the otherwise likely encounters (food related) or less likely encounters (surprising a mom with cubs, or a bear
on a kill). But focusing on a gun, or freaking out over the chance of the most unlikely type of
encounter happening (a predatory type attack) is simply not productive.

Sorry, I'm in a ranting mood this morning. Had to cancel a planned trip ;(


Edited by phat (07/10/08 08:46 AM)
_________________________
Any fool can be uncomfortable...
My 3 season gear list
Winter list.
Browse my pictures


Top
#99173 - 07/10/08 09:08 AM Re: quick question when tarping in areas with bear [Re: phat]
Cesar Offline
member

Registered: 11/06/07
Posts: 217
Loc: El Paso, TX
Quote:

5,000,000) from a rock pinning my arm in a crack and my knife being too dull for me to cut my arm off and walk out because I left my knife at home and borrowed one from Jim Shaw.


LOL! That comment made me laugh out load at work : )
Ive read that thread about knifes that are too sharp can be more dangerous then not.
_________________________
My gear is no where near lightweight

Top
#99174 - 07/10/08 09:50 AM Re: quick question when tarping in areas with bear [Re: phat]
ringtail Offline
member

Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 2296
Loc: Colorado Rockies
phat,

I am very encouraged that the hiker chix proposition is more likely than the predatory bear. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Member of the testosterone clan should be glad that the estrogen clan are not as shallow as us. I think I am more likely to be struck by lightening than to see an attractive man.

Oops... Forgot.

Well said. ROTFLMAO


Edited by food (07/10/08 09:54 AM)
_________________________
"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not."
Yogi Berra

Top
#99175 - 07/10/08 09:54 AM Re: quick question when tarping in areas with bear [Re: phat]
dkramalc Offline
member

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 1070
Loc: California
Phat, no need to apologize - that was one mighty fine rant (except that it was too full of intelligence to be just a rant). My favorite lines, and ones that should be burned into everyone's brain, were:

Quote:
Bear safety is not all about preparing for the ultimate man versus beast showdown. It is about a little ounce of prevention to keep everyone (including the bear!) safe in the usual encounter scenarios.


And thanks for the many laughs in your post too! Loved the listing of relative odds. But sorry about your trip cancellation.
_________________________
dk

Top
#99176 - 07/10/08 01:59 PM Re: quick question when tarping in areas with bear [Re: dkramalc]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Quote:
Loved the listing of relative odds. But sorry about your trip cancellation.


87% of the statistics for the relative odds I made up of course.

At least by this time tomorrow I'll be heading for snowbowl on my usual skyline jaunt...
_________________________
Any fool can be uncomfortable...
My 3 season gear list
Winter list.
Browse my pictures


Top
#99177 - 07/10/08 08:21 PM Re: quick question when tarping in areas with bear [Re: phat]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2865
Loc: California
For the noise part, I talk to bears all the time. A little silly, but do you talk to bears too? I say stuff like "hello bears, I am on the trail, I mean no harm, take your babies and move off to the same side, I have babies too, grandchlidern too, what is your baby's name?

Wow, if someone were to meet me they would think I was really crazy!

Top
#99178 - 07/10/08 10:27 PM Re: quick question when tarping in areas with bear [Re: wandering_daisy]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Yeah, I talk to them too - if I'm just walking along with one in view I'll have an entire one sided conversation with them about the pass we're in, what the names of the mountains are, etc. and stop to let them go by, or walk on past if they have their own space and are leaving me in mine. I have my little schtick I always do thanks to my own toilet habits - like the old joke I've always asked every bear I've met since I was about 16 if his poop sticks to the fur on his butt too - I haven't had an answer yet.

I don't think it's silly at all. without sounding like a flaky new age freak, I'm pretty convinced that talking normally like that puts you in your normal "socializing" type mood, and that your tone and manner are definately sensed by an animal like a bear - it lets them know you are aware of them, and you're not afraid but you're paying attention - just a good thing.

Although in grizzly country, when one is not in view, and I'm in trees (as opposed to the alpine) I tend to give little loud "yip yip" every few minutes - just so the bears know I'm coming down the trail, and aren't surprised when I come over a knoll.


Edited by phat (07/10/08 10:30 PM)
_________________________
Any fool can be uncomfortable...
My 3 season gear list
Winter list.
Browse my pictures


Top
#99179 - 07/10/08 11:16 PM Re: quick question when tarping in areas with bear [Re: phat]
johndavid Offline
member

Registered: 04/23/08
Posts: 260
Loc: jersey city NJ
Yeah but you're in Alberta. Most N.Amer backpackers never get within 500 miles of a grizzley. The story in the lower 48 is much different. You were just on Vancouver Island and were fully aware of the abscence of brown bears.

Also, circumstances regarding both brown and black bears obviously vary, depending on the rare population nodes, or local infestations.

Mainly within their respective ranges, neither bear is commonly encountered. But there are certainly exceptions.

It's important not to lump the two species together. I'm not saying just go and pet the rabid racoons, but I'd definitely yell and scream (with caution) at a black bear, and be much more circumspect around browns. As we know, they are not the same.

Top
#99180 - 07/12/08 07:08 PM Re: quick question when tarping in areas with bear [Re: johndavid]
kevonionia Offline
member

Registered: 04/17/06
Posts: 1322
Loc: Dallas, TX
Phat:

Quote:
I end up having to hike with a freaking can on my pack when they bring in bear canister requirements because they give up and decide hikers are too busy worrying about what ammunition to carry to john wayne down a charging grizzly in an appropriately manly fashion rather than ensuring they do the right thing to just avoid a problem in the first place.


I liked that part of your rant the best. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
- kevon

(avatar: raptor, Lake Dillon)


Top
#99181 - 07/13/08 11:47 AM Re: quick question when tarping in areas with bear [Re: johndavid]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2865
Loc: California
An "encounter" requires that both parties see each other. I venture to guess that most backpackers DO pass by bears but simply are unaware. Just about every trip I go on I see one if not more black bears. But I REALLY look for them. If I want to see one, I just am very quiet; if I do not want to see them I make lots of noise and then still have a good chance of seeing them! That goes for other wildlife too. If you are jabbering to others and have your eyes on the trail, you will miss most of the wildlife.

What I am trying to work on right now, is to be fast enough to get a photo of the bears I see. For some reason, when I see a bear grabbing my camera is the last thing on my mind. By the time I do, it is too late. All my "wildlife" photos I have are horrible - little dots in the distance! I guess you have to really make an effort to get good wildlife photos.

Top
Page 2 of 2 < 1 2

Shout Box

Highest Quality Lightweight Down Sleeping Bags
 
Western Mountaineering Sleeping Bags
 
Lite Gear Talk - Featured Topics
Backcountry Discussion - Featured Topics
Make Your Own Gear - Featured Topics
Featured Photos
Spiderco Chaparral Pocketknife
David & Goliath
Also Testing
Trip Report with Photos
Seven Devils, Idaho
Oat Hill Mine Trail 2012
Dark Canyon - Utah
Who's Online
0 registered (), 209 Guests and 0 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Noodles, McCrary, DanyBacky, Rashy Willia, WanderBison
13240 Registered Users
Forum Links
Disclaimer
Policies
Site Links
Backpacking.net
Lightweight Gear Store
Backpacking Book Store
Lightweight Zone
Hiking Essentials

Our long-time Sponsor, BackcountryGear.com - The leading source for ultralite/lightweight outdoor gear:

Backcountry Forum
 

Affiliate Disclaimer: This forum is an affiliate of BackcountryGear.com, Amazon.com, R.E.I. and others. The product links herein are linked to their sites. If you follow these links to make a purchase, we may get a small commission. This is our only source of support for these forums. Thanks.!
 
 

Since 1996 - the Original Backcountry Forum
Copyright © The Lightweight Backpacker & BackcountryForum