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#93766 - 04/06/08 03:47 PM About climbing while BPing
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3983
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Hi
This is for non-climbing BPers. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
You will sooner or later find yourself next to some beautiful rock <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> and you may think about how neat it would be to climb it. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I'm not here to tell you how dangerous it is or not too, I want to give you a few tidbits of advice to keep you alive. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> I hope others will chip in... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Scrambling - class 3 - refers to steep climbing that requires all of your hands and feet to move, but probably does not mean death if you slip. This is a good place to stop.

Scrambling requires the right shoes, or atleast not he wrong shoes. I have climbed technical rock in leather hiking boots. I have slipped dangerously on rock in tennis shoes. Wear something that will grip or stay off the rocks.

Class 4 means exposed scrambling where a slip does mean grave bodily harm. Don't go there. You can die from a 15 foot fall... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

OK - tips
1) its always easier to up than down, so if its too hard to continue up, you cannot get down either, so come down while you can. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
2) Keep your weight away from the rock - vertical like you are walking down a sidewalk, this makes your feet grip the best they can.
3) look for flat spots to set your feet.
4) handholds don't pull you up, they keep you from falling over backwards, don't rely on them - upward movement is powered by legs and good footholds.
5) Stay off crumbly rock. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
6) stay off vertical rock. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
7) refering to #1 - if you can - continue upwards rather than descending difficult rock, there will most likely be a way to walk around from the top. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
8) Rapelling is dangerous - your life depends upon the anchor. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
9) personally I never trust a rock smaller than a coffin, a far as climbing onto it.
10) never rap below a couloire. Oh man - nearly died doing that <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Jim - have fun, get practice. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#93767 - 04/06/08 05:34 PM Re: About climbing while BPing [Re: Jimshaw]
Glenn Offline
member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 2617
Loc: Ohio
Jim:

My scouts always liked to climb up those 10 or 15 foot high, stand-alone rocks; you know, the ones that are pretty much vertical on all sides, but with good holds. I used to tell them, "Figure out how you're going to get down before you start up." Comments?

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#93768 - 04/06/08 08:40 PM Re: About climbing while BPing [Re: Glenn]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3983
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Glenn
Bouldering as it is called is a very popular form of climbing. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> It develops strong climbing instincts and power but requires skill and strength to do well. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> In other words, its real climbing and kinda dangerous, technically challenging, yet close to the ground. Since your boys are neither skilled, nor strong, they will fall and should be prepared for it. Boys are poor spotters.

Have a thick foam matt or two to land on so you don't break an ankle. The first rule is - hit the matt and the 2nd rule is - do not roll over onto your face and break it. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Anyway bouldering is something that should have some adult supervision. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />And of course if there is no way down, then its not a good rock to climb, but most rocks have one 3rd class side. So remember - even though the bouldering grades are different, that bouldering is still technically - soloing technical rock and probably should be done with a belay with Boy Scouts and the problem is setting an adequate anchor. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />


Edited by Jimshaw (04/06/08 08:55 PM)
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#93769 - 04/06/08 08:50 PM Re: About climbing while BPing [Re: Jimshaw]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
Jim that was a great post. As a novice how do I tell the difference between 3 and 4. I mean how do I tell whether or not if I start sliding I will accellerate or just kind keep sliding more or less harmlessly. Is there a way to test things near the bottom, or for all practical purposes do I need to rely on my inexperienced judgement?

p.s. Re-reading the post I think I get it now. Class 4 might be no more steep but might then drop off or at least keep going alot farther than I would like to slide. Thinking I get it now. Yeah lots of place like that along the coast here. Good thing I'm naturally scared shitless of edges. I should get some practice in at safe places though. I would like to see if I can take some sort of course on plain old scrambling.

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#93770 - 04/06/08 09:30 PM Re: About climbing while BPing [Re: Jimshaw]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2865
Loc: California
Good advise. You did not mention the "climbing" that kills more backpackers - snow and ice. Oh, lets get down quicky - start to glissade without the experience or ice axe and all of a sudden you are going 30 mph and hit a rock.

Even most experienced climbers I have known that died met their end on snow.

There are objective dangers even on a Class 1 peak. Lightening for one. If you really want to climb, get some training to develop the judgement that is needed. Start with reading a lot of books-Mountaineering, Freedom of the Hills is a great place to start. Then join a club or get some training. Then practice, practice, practice.

As an aside, for years I did hard core back country technical climbing. It got to the point where we were hauling 30 pounds of gear around, ending up too tired to climb! Maybe it is just getting old. But now, I haul gear to ONE base camp and climb from there. Trying to combine techical climbing with several moves backpacking between destinations did not work well for me.

I have no "grade" that I limit myself to when in the backcountry without gear. I just have enough experience to know when it starts to feel bad. I quit at that point. I probably have backed off more climbs than I have made the summit. Also, if I am going to do any climbing on a backpack I throw in my 9-oz helmet.

I would slightly disagree with "climb up because there is likely an easy way off". This does not always work.

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#93771 - 04/07/08 12:22 AM Re: About climbing while BPing [Re: wandering_daisy]
OregonMouse Online   content
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
And all, that, folks, is why I don't climb--I know my limitations! I find that I do pretty well if I limit myself to what my dog can easily do, although sometimes he surprises me.
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

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#93772 - 04/07/08 01:13 AM Re: About climbing while BPing [Re: OregonMouse]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
My experience with climbing...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4cmrMJul1g

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#93773 - 04/07/08 03:58 PM Re: About climbing while BPing [Re: wandering_daisy]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3983
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Daisy
You're right of course - snow can be far more dangerous than people think, <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> and avolanches can happen on much lower terain than seems reasonable.
However I was talking about scrambling on rock while BPing, <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> you certainly are far more experienced in the Alpine realm than I. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

So maybe you will talk to us about movement on snow and ice in non-alpine climbing - more like what BPers might encounter and what to avoid. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Don't get technical. I stopped them at class 4 scrambling, your job is to discuss class 3 snow. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I for one walked across a high snowfield, slipped and stopped about 1/4 mile later - unharmed. No iceaxe of course, or even an understading of how dangerous what I was doing could be. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> In fact as I think of the total impunity with which I climbed steep snow and didn't even know I could die from a slip. My friend was amased when he slipped at the top of a shallow snow field, dug in his hands and toes, and still slid all the way to the bottom before he stopped. You cannot self arrest without an adequate tool. Perhaps the self arrest is the minimal snow knowledge required - besides not stepping in Crevasses, but thats technical of course. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#93774 - 04/07/08 10:45 PM Re: About climbing while BPing [Re: Jimshaw]
Wolfeye Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 413
Loc: Seattle, WA
Good post. I'd like to chime in that it's okay to take off the pack if it helps you get through a tough spot - I always carry a good length of paracord so I can have someone pull up my pack, or so the pack can be lowered safely.

A few more tips I can think of are:
- only move one hand or foot at a time
- it's safer to climb down while facing the rock rather than facing outwards; imagine climbing a ladder with a backpack and you can see what I mean

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#93775 - 06/30/08 05:46 PM Re: About climbing while BPing [Re: Jimshaw]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3983
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Hi All, I wanted to bring this thread back up to the surface for the Summer.
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#93776 - 06/30/08 08:46 PM Re: About climbing while BPing [Re: Jimshaw]
johndavid Offline
member

Registered: 04/23/08
Posts: 260
Loc: jersey city NJ
There are at least two DEEPLY UNINFORMED statements in Jimshaw's original post:

"if you can - continue upwards rather than descending difficult rock, there will most likely be a way to walk around from the top."

COMMENT: This is a highly standard way that fools get themselves in deep trouble. Did it myself in 1981. Without a rope (and willingness to fall on your gear) the ability to CONFIDENTLY downclimb anything you ascend is critical to safety.

"never rap below a couloire. Oh man - nearly died doing that "

COMMENT: Couloir is a French word meaning "corridor." Lots of particular couloirs are extremely well known, often "classic" routes for climbers. Making use of couloirs for ascent and descent is exceedingly common in mountaineering.

Yeah, some gullies (the English word) are quite dangerous at times, and it's very important to independently assess rockfall potential, or at the absolute minimum, to obtain some information from other climbers about the hazards of one's chosen route.

A regular on this board who made a great deal out of his own, personal experience, recently said Jimshaw has more knowledge than (most?) professional mountaineering guides. Perhaps then, this BAD ADVISE is merely a function of writing ability?


Edited by johndavid (07/03/08 08:39 PM)

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#93777 - 07/01/08 11:23 AM Re: About climbing while BPing [Re: Jimshaw]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Come on Jim, haven't you ever seen Man vs Wild. The number one rule for getting out of survival situations is ... climb a cliff without rope. Okay the number one rule is probably...run through the woods frantically doing barrel rolls every so often. The number two rule is climb a cliff without rope. Now that that is straight, the reason behind it is that climbing cliffs makes you feel more manly (or womanly tough) thereby improving your attitude (so..I made that up <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />). I am sure there is a really good reason for climbing cliffs in survival situations, after all, if Bear does it, it must be good. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

(Hopefully my sarcasm is evident <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />)
_________________________
I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

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#93778 - 07/01/08 05:56 PM Re: About climbing while BPing [Re: finallyME]
Glenn Offline
member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 2617
Loc: Ohio
Climbing to a high point is only helpful if this isn't the first time you've been lost. Once you get on top, you can look out a long way; usually, it's reassuring because you suddenly realize that you' can't possibly be lost. After all, you've been lost before, and it didn't look anything like this. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

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#93779 - 07/03/08 06:53 PM Re: About climbing while BPing [Re: Glenn]
johndavid Offline
member

Registered: 04/23/08
Posts: 260
Loc: jersey city NJ


"I guess I don't really care that much what the American Alpine Institute in Bellingham recommends ... I suspect that Jimshaw alone has more outdoor experience than the collective experience of their entire staff."

--Pika



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#93780 - 07/04/08 10:51 PM Re: About climbing while BPing [Re: johndavid]
johndavid Offline
member

Registered: 04/23/08
Posts: 260
Loc: jersey city NJ
Just edited my last post. This misguided attitude of smug superiority and at the same time offering truly uninformed and even dangerous advice is so glaring to me that I can't let it go.

Yeah, I know, forum posting etiqutte suggests more tolerance for stuff like that. If somebody posts something you disagree with, you're supposed to just note this politely and move on.

Sorry folks, but not sorry enough I suppose.

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#93781 - 07/05/08 07:19 AM Re: About climbing while BPing [Re: johndavid]
Pika Online   content
member

Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 1814
Loc: Rural Southeast Arizona
I'm sorry that you didn't recognize a bit of mild hyperbole when you read it. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

As for uncritically accepting the recommendations of an organization that guides for pay; read "Into Thin Air". Reading that and having a good look through "Accidents in North American Mountaineering" by the American Alpine Club should give you a healthy skepticism of at least a part of "for-profit" mountaineering. My experience with some of these organizations suggests that, while the management is experienced and their stated policies may be sound, many of the on-the-ground guides are young, fit, cocky, brash, and relatively inexperienced considering what they may have to deal with. I have seen a lot of risky leadership on the part of climbing guides over the years. Usually, but not always, they get away with it.
_________________________
May I walk in beauty.

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#93782 - 07/05/08 02:04 PM Re: About climbing while BPing [Re: Pika]
johndavid Offline
member

Registered: 04/23/08
Posts: 260
Loc: jersey city NJ
Pika:

Guide services at least won't try to feed people utterly uninformed nonsense while merely posing as experts like your shameless friend Jimshaw.

You seem predisposed to find a great deal of incompetence out there, I guess relative to only yourself, whether the techniques in question involve something absurdly simple or more complex.

In this case, at least, your viewpoint has no objective basis.

I recall only two or three incidents involving US guide services in recent years. A few, I'm sure, I haven't heard about. The bad one on Rainier, I dimly remember, had nothing to do with guides' judgment.

Given that mountaineering is somewhat hazardous, guides have a remarkably good safety record in North America. Their ability to afford insurance offers some additional confirmation.

Into Thin Air" is an interesting book, but it certainly doesn't describe a typical guiding situation and is almost irrelevant.

Canadian guides, on average, get more formal training than American guides, but their emphasis on en-mass heli-skiing possibly gives them a worse record due to winter avalanche incidents.

Using guide services can indeed be hazardous apart from the hazards of mountaineering. The hazard is clearly that some client may suffer from a falsely inflated sense of his or her own abilities, and actual achievements.

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