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#93065 - 03/25/08 08:57 PM Re: Have gas prices changed your outings? [Re: totempole99]
totempole99 Offline
member

Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 127
Loc: Memphis, TN
Wow, I guess I'll just reply to myself since four of you have decided to rip me a new one..... I really couldn't care less if you save money or not. All I am saying is that I used to religiously track my miles with every fill up before and after I got this, and it improved my miles per gallon, enough so to pay for itself in a year.

Anyway, I'd rather not let this thread drift...interesting reading

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#93066 - 03/25/08 09:25 PM Re: Have gas prices changed your outings? [Re: Paddy_Crow]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Paddy_Crow is right. I was a car builder for about 18 years. During that time I was exposed to all the water injectors, whirlygigs, pour-in potions and add-on gizmos people could come up with.

The biggest efficiency advances in internal combustion engines in the last couple dozen years are electronic fuel injection and ignition systems coupled with the "Brain" and sensors that interact with and control them.

I been driving a little old Suzuki Samuari 4X4 for close to twelve years now. I even "Customized" it a few years ago. I put a sticker on the windshield that says, "BUMMER". I always look for a "HUMMER" to park it next to when I go to town. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Bill

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#93067 - 03/26/08 06:40 AM Re: Have gas prices changed your outings? [Re: totempole99]
Pika Offline
member

Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 1813
Loc: Rural Southeast Arizona
The cheapest and most effective fuel economy device you can get is an egg. Put it between your foot and the gas pedal before you start out on a trip and try not to break the egg. Seriously though, the most effective item for fuel economy on any given vehicle is the driver! I have seen statistics suggesting that the average American could gain 20% in fuel economy if they were just to change driving habits.

I also recall reading an article on "gas saving" widgets such as water injectors and the "turbines" you mention. BTW, they were available when Model A Fords were new; the same claims were made then. The conclusion was that any fuel savings were due to changes in the way the driver drove after the device was installed. Also, there was seldom any data on fuel mileage before the device was installed so any "improvement" could not be rigorously documented.
_________________________
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#93068 - 03/26/08 06:42 AM Re: Have gas prices changed your outings? [Re: wandering_daisy]
hootyhoo Offline
member

Registered: 12/14/06
Posts: 686
Loc: Cyberspace
Rant-
Is has for years now. Before the 2000 election(?) I had a discussion about what would happen with George as Pres and we concluded that gas would go up 2.00 per gallon. Never did I imagine that it would go this high.
Everytime a Yukon Denali passes me doing warp factor five I just have to say 'thanks'.
Yes it has affected my trips and if I did not live where I do I am not sure how I would cope. 60 miles to a dog friendly wilderness. 50 miles to this side of the Smoky Mountains. And several other areas still within reach. I have considered a motorcycle or a stripped down Subaru as alternatives. I thought about getting a tiny little pickup and striping down to the bare bones, sorta UL style. Like cutting the tags off your clothes, but to the extreme. But if you do the math on specific 'hiking' vehicle with insurance and maintenance it is hard to justify it. A motorcyle would most likely get stolen and are not dog friendly.
I am sure that if you took all the unnecessary equipment off of an already fuel effiecient vehicle that it would only get better mileage.
Why is no one doing this? I could even sacrifice the radio and ac to get more savings at the pump.
If Subaru/toyota would make one of their more fuel efficient models in a super efficient model with all the safety features, but none of the fluff I would buy one. I would also imagine that it would cost less with less of the comforts and amenities -the spoilage.
My wife is from Germany and we got an email the other day that (already converted) their gas was $ 8.00 american per gallon. So look out. They are not done with us yet. One day gas will be only for the rich. And I have children that will not get to enjoy the freedoms that I did.
But how about minimum wage people that are just trying to survive and feed their families? How about a single mom that has to tell her kids that there is no dinner because she has to get enough gas to get to work and back again. Maybe some billion dollar CEO could give her some of his left overs, or let her root around in his trash. I'm just saying...

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#93069 - 03/26/08 09:25 AM Re: Have gas prices changed your outings? [Re: totempole99]
Paddy_Crow Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan
If you go back and read my posts objectively, I think you'll agree that they were not disrespectful.

I've been designing auto engines for more than 25 years, in that time I've tested more charge motion inducing devices than you can imagine. Bottom line, they tend to improve combustion at low speeds but the increased drag tends to be costly at higher speeds. Thus you'll find most modern engines that use charge motion inducing devices have a means of switching them on and off.

Without turning this into a dissertation, my guess is that this device can provide a marginal improvement on a carbureted or TBI engine if you keep the revs down. With a multiport injected high swirl or tumble engine, I bet it would hurt fuel economy. I would be interested to hear what data you've collected and on what type of engine. Also curious how much improvement you claim the device is delivering.

Sorry, I am a skeptic. I've seen many of these devices and tested them on dynamometer. I have yet to find one that lives up to its billing.

PS- you can put Slick 50 and similar oil treatments in that category. We've tested the daylights out of the stuff, it provides absolutely no benefit whatsoever. The early stuff was even detrimental, it clogged oil filters.

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#93070 - 03/26/08 09:44 AM Re: Have gas prices changed your outings? [Re: Paddy_Crow]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
I have to agree with Paddy_Crow again, and also say that I did not mean to be ripping on you.

I was not an engine builder. I became a "Metal Man", I built car bodies mostly, and occasionally the chassis they sat on. But all those cars needed an engine so I got to know several highly respected engine builders and I learned when I was young to pay attention to the guys that were really good at what they did.

For grins, you might want to do some more testing using Paddy_Crow's advice. Test at both city and highway speeds with and without the device and see what you get.

I for one would be very interested to know since my little Suzuki Samurai has a throttle body fuel injected carb and it might benefit from the device according to what Paddy_Crow says. I very seldom go fast or run at high RPM's, but with that little 1300cc engine it doesn't seem to matter how I use the accelerator, it gets 25mpg no matter what. (When the 'Sami' was completely stock it got 30mpg. Bigger tires and lower gearing in the transfer case cost me the 5mpg)

Bill

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#93071 - 03/26/08 10:30 AM Re: Have gas prices changed your outings? [Re: wandering_daisy]
sarbar Offline
member

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 1453
Loc: WA
Somewhat.

We own two SUV's and a sedan.

The SUV's:
One 2000 Ford Explorer we are trying to sell. It gets 16-20 mpg. A grocery getter but works well in snow, etc.

2000 Nissan Xterra that has been used for off roading. Not sellable. Gets 12-14 mpg on highway due to being lifted and carrying a ton of extra steel. Offroading gets it maybe 10 mpg. Keeping as...well, only a few people would want its well abused body <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

1993 Mercedes Benz Diesel sedan. It gets 32-40+mpg depending on weather and what grade fuel we use. We run B5 to B20 Biodiesel in it and it likes that a lot better than dino diesel. On highway we top 40 mpg. She is a huge sedan as well - no economy car here - she sits 5 real sized adults with a ton of gear. But! She is not good in snow or cold weather so we drive the trucks during the winter when hiking up in yonder foothills.

The Benz allows us to travel still and it is actually getting easier to find B99 Bio as well. We are considering putting the conversion in as well this year so we can run bio alongside WVO "fuel" at the same time. With this we could drive to Montana and back on ONE set of tanks of fuel. Currently we fuel up around the 500 mile mark to be sure. I love our Benz more than any car I have driven. I will NOT go back to a gasoline car again. Diesel is the way for me.
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#93072 - 03/26/08 10:32 AM Re: Have gas prices changed your outings? [Re: sarbar]
sarbar Offline
member

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 1453
Loc: WA
I forgot to add....here where we live, you have to have emission testing done every 2 years. The Benz scored in the top scoring this year. What that means is our big girl doesn't pollute a storm up (people think diesels and black diesel bombs coming out). The bio fuel is very helpful.
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#93073 - 03/26/08 11:03 AM Re: Have gas prices changed your outings? [Re: Pika]
frenchie Offline
member

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 461
Loc: Lyon, France
More and more firms here put up "economical driving" classes for their drivers (busses, trucks, car fleets,...), aiming to save up to 20% on fuel, as the gallon is way over 5$ for us . For some people, it's really "drive or feed the kids" now.

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#93074 - 03/26/08 11:37 AM Re: Have gas prices changed your outings? [Re: sarbar]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Quote:
I will NOT go back to a gasoline car again. Diesel is the way for me.


Some day, the rest of the US will realize this. Now, we just need a hybrid diesel. Man, that has got to be an expensive motor. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
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#93075 - 03/26/08 11:40 AM Re: Have gas prices changed your outings? [Re: finallyME]
sarbar Offline
member

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 1453
Loc: WA
Quote:
Quote:
I will NOT go back to a gasoline car again. Diesel is the way for me.


Some day, the rest of the US will realize this. Now, we just need a hybrid diesel. Man, that has got to be an expensive motor. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


All I need is a diesel station wagon and life would be good <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I also bought a bike recently for doing my daily mail runs for the business - our post office is moving soon and I won't have to bike on main roads, all back roads to get there <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It does involve two hills though, both ways and my bike doesn't have a latte holder <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Freezer Bag Cooking, Trail Cooking, Recipes, Gear and Beyond:
www.trailcooking.com

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#93076 - 03/26/08 11:47 AM Re: Have gas prices changed your outings? [Re: Paddy_Crow]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
I am with Paddy as well. I don't have 25 years in the industry, just a four month senior level college course, Internal Combustion Engines. It was taught by a guy who was trying to get out of the engine industry and into teaching. He had over 20+ years of engine research at Southwest Research Institute. Basically, engine designers are trying everything they can think of to optimize the fuel/air ratio.

As an alternative, you could always ask the mythbusters. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Sometimes their test method is a little shaky, but most of the time they do a good job. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

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#93077 - 03/26/08 11:49 AM Re: Have gas prices changed your outings? [Re: sarbar]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Quote:

All I need is a diesel station wagon and life would be good <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I also bought a bike recently for doing my daily mail runs for the business - our post office is moving soon and I won't have to bike on main roads, all back roads to get there <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It does involve two hills though, both ways and my bike doesn't have a latte holder <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


Two words, "insulated camelback". <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

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#93078 - 03/26/08 02:20 PM Re: Have gas prices changed your outings? [Re: finallyME]
sarbar Offline
member

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 1453
Loc: WA
Quote:
Quote:

All I need is a diesel station wagon and life would be good <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I also bought a bike recently for doing my daily mail runs for the business - our post office is moving soon and I won't have to bike on main roads, all back roads to get there <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It does involve two hills though, both ways and my bike doesn't have a latte holder <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


Two words, "insulated camelback". <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Lol...but how do I stay a yuppie if I don't have an insulated latte holder on my handlebars? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Just have to watch the potholes while drinking....does this mean I need to put away my cell phone as well? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Freezer Bag Cooking, Trail Cooking, Recipes, Gear and Beyond:
www.trailcooking.com

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#93079 - 03/26/08 02:32 PM Re: Have gas prices changed your outings? [Re: sarbar]
Paddy_Crow Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan
Be careful with high bio content fuels, it can be unhealthy for engines. It causes problems with injectors coking and doubles the rate of lube oil oxidation (and that's on B80). I would advise frequent oil changes, don't try to push it past 5000 miles.

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#93080 - 03/26/08 03:29 PM Re: Have gas prices changed your outings? [Re: Paddy_Crow]
sarbar Offline
member

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 1453
Loc: WA
Quote:
Be careful with high bio content fuels, it can be unhealthy for engines. It causes problems with injectors coking and doubles the rate of lube oil oxidation (and that's on B80). I would advise frequent oil changes, don't try to push it past 5000 miles.


We stay with lower Bio rates - B99 doesn't run as well in the cold, it can "gel" up. On the other hand we take care of our Benz. B99 won't hurt it. We have a mechanic that only works on Benz's and his specialty is diesels. Bio run diesel cars are very popular out here. The majority of diesels can handle B99 that is made well - the fear is well, inferior fuel and that a certain number of trucks don't like the Bio's.

One big issue you do have to look out for is when you go to B99 is your fuel filter will get mucked up fast. We had to change ours out even with B20 after a month or so. Now it is great. Dino diesel is not so hot for diesels - it doesn't do the lubrication it used to be able to! A little bio in it is nearly always good.
_________________________
Freezer Bag Cooking, Trail Cooking, Recipes, Gear and Beyond:
www.trailcooking.com

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#93081 - 03/26/08 03:39 PM Re: Have gas prices changed your outings? [Re: sarbar]
kevonionia Offline
member

Registered: 04/17/06
Posts: 1322
Loc: Dallas, TX
Quote:
....does this mean I need to put away my cell phone as well?


Sarah:

How many hands have you got? Glad you have bio-diesel out there. Here we're a good decade, maybe two, behind you. And with all the fried foods they eat in Florida, we're literally swimming in something we could be burning in our cars.

The thing I've noticed here in Florida is the huge jump fossil-fuel diesel has taken. The Shell station at Calle Ocho & I-95 -- a landmark spot -- had regular gas at 3.49 and diesel at 4.39! That would somewhat negate the effect of the better mileage one gets with a diesel car here.
_________________________
- kevon

(avatar: raptor, Lake Dillon)


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#93082 - 03/26/08 04:30 PM Re: Have gas prices changed your outings? [Re: kevonionia]
sarbar Offline
member

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 1453
Loc: WA
Quote:
Quote:
....does this mean I need to put away my cell phone as well?


Sarah:

How many hands have you got? Glad you have bio-diesel out there. Here we're a good decade, maybe two, behind you. And with all the fried foods they eat in Florida, we're literally swimming in something we could be burning in our cars.

The thing I've noticed here in Florida is the huge jump fossil-fuel diesel has taken. The Shell station at Calle Ocho & I-95 -- a landmark spot -- had regular gas at 3.49 and diesel at 4.39! That would somewhat negate the effect of the better mileage one gets with a diesel car here.


Very true on Dino Diesel....it is running $4.00 to $4.40 a gallon here - makes the Bio versions actually affordable now! For me, the extra cost in fuel still works out - nearly 40 mpg in the sedan vs 16-18 in the SUV <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Regular cheapie gas is still pushing $3.70 here as well! Pricey no matter how you go at it. Ugh.

Note to self....if wanting to run WVO in my car go to Florida. No one will be fighting me for it <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> It is getting competitive out here in some places for the used fry oils! Many places have collection drums out back with if you look some ones name on it <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
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www.trailcooking.com

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#93083 - 03/26/08 07:04 PM Re: Have gas prices changed your outings? [Re: sarbar]
Paddy_Crow Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan
Quote:
The majority of diesels can handle B99 that is made well - the fear is well, inferior fuel and that a certain number of trucks don't like the Bio's.


The majority of OEM's are just beginning to test their diesel engines on bio. The issues I mentioned were uncovered by that testing, but it's still preliminary. We really don't know what the consequences may be for long term use.

A few SAE papers I've read indicate there's no significant difference in lubricity between refined diesel oil and those with bio content.

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#93084 - 03/26/08 09:12 PM Re: Have gas prices changed your outings? [Re: Paddy_Crow]
Tango61 Offline
member

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 931
Loc: East Texas Piney Woods

I have a Ford Ranger and I've asked if they make them with a diesel engine. I was told they do but they only sell them in South America due to emissions.

I would really love to have a small pickup truck with a 4-cylinder diesel engine.
Remember the VW Rabbit? I drove one of those for a few years and loved it.

As for a scooter, no way am I driving one here in the DFW metroplex. That would be suicide. It's bad enough in a small car, dodging all the trucks (18 wheelers), SUV's, and big pick ups. (I have one of those too, but don't drive it much. Only when I have to take 4-6 people).

For now, it's not the fuel prices that are keeping me from going backpacking but the job.

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#93085 - 03/26/08 09:32 PM Re: Have gas prices changed your outings? [Re: Paddy_Crow]
totempole99 Offline
member

Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 127
Loc: Memphis, TN
All right, so you were just telling me from experience, not ripping me…..fair enough

I have absolutely no idea what you just said there, you lost me when you said TBI engine <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />. I can understand your skepticism, especially considering your background.

I have an automatic 1994 Saturn SL1. The driving is a mix of city (<45 mph), highway (45-60), and interstate (>60) miles, with more city and highway miles than interstate. The actual Excel spreadsheet I used to calculate this is on a fried computer in the closet, but I remember whenever I did calculate it I got just over 1.25 extra mpg. So I went from around 33 mpg to at least 34 mpg (again, I can’t recall exact figures; this was a few years ago and the actual receipts are long gone…I did it for about 8 months after I got the device to compare to prior fuel economy, and calculated it would take about a year to pay for itself). So using 1.25 and 33 mpg, that equates to a 3.8% improvement. You were curious as to the engine type……http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_S-Series says I have a SOHC 1.9 L I4 LK0 engine; whatever that means to you.

And like sarbar, I too have to get an emission test. I live in a certain 26 (I think) county area of metro-Atlanta that you have to get an emission test every year, and I’ve always come out with flying colors, so this isn’t just some old junker (well, maybe it is, but it is my old junker).

Pika: There are probably a lot of variables I wouldn’t think of that affects the gas mileage, but I know that my driving habits will change the fuel economy the most. I could easily bias what I am saying one way or the other (whichever way I choose), but all I can say to this is that my driving habits have not changed.


P.S. Have you seen this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmqpGZv0YT4 and what do you think of that?

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#93086 - 03/27/08 08:49 AM Re: Have gas prices changed your outings? [Re: totempole99]
Paddy_Crow Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan
TBI = Throttle Body Injection

Not many cars were TBI after the late eighties. The first wave of replacement for carburetors was single injector in the throttle body, followed by multi point injection in the intake runners. The reason I brought up carbs and TBI is that turbulence induced upstream of the throttle plate will be pretty much dissipated by the time it gets to the injector in a long and curved intake runner (multipoint). I also doubt there will be much turbulence remaining just downstream of the throttle plate at small angles. So the window for such a device to positively affect mixing is not wide.

If you measured your fuel economy over 8 months, I suspect there are seasonal effects in your data. Things like humidity and temperature will affect the efficiency of the engine. Also, some parasitics like air conditioning are not consistent from season to season. The condition of your air filter, engine oil, and filter will also introduce variation in your data.

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#93087 - 03/27/08 09:53 AM Re: Have gas prices changed your outings? [Re: Paddy_Crow]
Pika Offline
member

Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 1813
Loc: Rural Southeast Arizona
Also, there are seasonal variations in gasoline blend with more of the volatile, lighter fractions being used in winter and more of the less volatile, heavier fractions being used in summer. The heavier blends tend to produce somewhat greater fuel economy which tends to be offset by more use of air conditioning in summer. Also, in a lot of cities, methyl ether and/or ethanol are added up to 10% of volume as an air quality improver. Both of these additives tend to reduce fuel economy.
_________________________
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#93088 - 03/29/08 08:12 PM Re: Have gas prices changed your outings? [Re: Paddy_Crow]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
These things don't work. Mythbusters have debunked a few of them, although I don't think this particular one. On the other hand Popular Mechanics reviewed it, and I'd probably trust them to tell me it's just a another nice bunch of snake oil sold with internet flash.
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