So I can do an honest lightweight trip with a base pack of just over 5lbs. not including food or water. Shelter is not included either as most trips are in the Sierras and we skirt around most conditions. I don't think its fair when people don't list everything because they are wearing it at first then remove it and it's in there pack for the majority of the trip. C'mon be honest what's your true weight?

That's why "skin-out weight" is so important. It's easy to load your pockets up with stuff and not include it in the pack weight. The base weight is the place to work on getting your total pack weight down, but ultimately your feet have to carry everything--both skin-out weight and the extra weight that some of us have under our skins!

Which reminds me that I probably should be including my glasses and my wristwatch in my skin-out weight. I am not, however, going to weigh or list my partial denture. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Although maybe I should; I left it behind at a campsite once last summer!

Mark,

I take enough gear to accomplish my goals for the trip. The pack gets lighter for fast and light trips. In fact for a 24 hour R.O.G.A.I.N.E. I would use a medium fanny pack with about a 3 pound base weight. For a solo six night trip where I need to carry 5 quarts of water the base weight creeps up to about 16.

Fewer miles makes for a heavier pack because I might want some camp toys - maybe even a fishing pole.

I do not mind going without a stove for up to two nights in warm weather.

I take fall trips where my goal is to find a high enough point with trees so I can lay in my hammock and listen to a football game on a radio.

I match my kit to the trip. I prefer that my goals and not gear be the focus of the trip.

Bingo! The only true measure is FSO (from skin out) weight, not "base". And it must include food and water since it is being carried.

OM I;d say since your partial denture is in your mouth, you don't have to count it. Then again, we might have people start stuffing gear in their mouth (and other places... ewww) so they can claim a lower FSO weight.

I agree too. Thats why I said that I don't usually carry a shelter. But I don't agree with adding in fuel, water, and food. They are consumables and never have a consistent weight..never. But you are right every trip is specific and I really enjoy the carrying as little as possible it makes me feel more independant and for lack of any better term "in touch"

Trouble is fuel water and food have to matter -- what if you're carrying canister stove, so you have canisters - then you have to allot for the weight of the empty canisters... so it's
a bit iffy not to include.

I think you just need to be completely honest about what you are carrying and for what trip, me, I just weight the pack loaded up with water and consumables. Getting into 4 different kinds of weights just sounds like an exercise in chestbeating to me <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Of course if you're talking about the weight your feet have to carry, then body weight becomes an issue. I realized one day while tying to shave a few ounces of my gear that I was carrying around 5 pounds of unneeded fat I'd put on over the winter and that loosing the weight would help way more than cutting the handle of my toothbrush...

Yep. I gained a few pounds during the winter too. But I just cut the handle of the toothbrush.Well, half of it anyway.

I agree. Weigh it full of everything you have in your pack. I don't weigh what I'm wearing cause, most of the time," since I was a very young child", I've been wearing clothes. I feel like if I'm happy with my pack weight and it doesn't bother me, what does it matter. I'm not out to run a relay. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I don't keep up with anyone or worry if someone can keep up with my pace. If I get tired, I stop and chill for a few minutes and enjoy the view. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Might add a day or so to my trip. No worries, see you when I get back. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Not that I am a Rumsfield fan, but "you go to war with what you have, not what you want" also applies to backpacking. I go out with what I have. I do not have the $$ to simply go out and buy the latest lightest stuff.

I count EVERYTHING! On the back, on the body, all food, all fuel, all water carried. Body fat? I do not have any! And add the stupid bear cannister! So count me in for the ultra-heavy crowd! I'm at the 20 pound range for a weekend, 35-40 pounds for a 10-day trip - high altitude, camping at 11,000 feet, freezing at night, off-trail, solo, seeing nobody in 8 days or more. I cannot beg, borrow or steal off anyone. Often I have to throw in an ice axe. My camera is a must so when I am 90 I can sit back and look at my photos while drooling in my wheelchair.

I really think it is kind of a stupid question. If I simply wanted to prove I could survive on a 10-day trip, yes, I could take 5 pounds. That is not why I backpack. On the other hand, if that is your thing - go for it.

I say, go out, get going - do it! If you have old heavy stuff, so what? It's better to go out and do something than agonize over your UL status. I buy one or two light items each year. I am gradually getting to the light side. But I need my $$ to buy gas, so I can go out!

My S.O. can sleep fuzzy warm at freezing temps in a 1-pound bag. Me, I freeze when the thermostat goes down to 68! I consider my 10-degree bag a 32-degree bag. Everyone is different.

Bottom line - lighter pack = more comfortable walking, less comfortable camping. You find your own balance between the two. The most important thing is to go backpacking.

There is a lot of truth to that. Your body fat is also food if your caloric intake is too low. I believe Ryan Jordan accounted for loss of body mass in his caloric computations when he did his unsupported Arctic 1000.

In the end, all that really matters is that you are happy out on the trail doing what you enjoy. Whatever that may be. HYOH.

I think if it is something you're concerned or passionate about, it is important to know the difference between base weight, skin out weight, body weight, etc. When I had a heavier pack and heavy boots, I don't think it made any difference if my pants were 1oz heavier, or if I had a granola bar or compass in my pocket. At the end of the day, my feet were sore, my shoulders ached, and my back was in agony.

Now I hike with those exact same pants, but light weight trail running shoes and a light pack. When I load up with 8 days of food, yeah my shoulders might get a little sore, but if my base weight is as low as I can get it, then the food and fuel weight has less of an impact. 20 pounds of food, fuel, and water on a 10 pound base is 30 pounds, the same on a 20 pound base is 40. It makes a big difference, especially near the end of your hike and your pack now weighs 15 instead of 25 pounds!

As others have said, safety and comfort are important, but chipping away at your gear over years (I've spent 10 years getting my pack weight down since my 'awakening' to light weight hiking) is a great way to improve your backpacking enjoyment. You don't have to run out and buy everything all at once, I do a bit of overtime at work in the winter and that's my gear budget.

This is good feedback. I get really engrossed in putting less on my back. my gear is not expensive at all. I get out an awful lot and i love re-fining gear choices its not the most important thing but its fun. I also teach Boy Scouts how to lighten up and one of my biggest selling points is finding low cost lightweight items. i especially like looking at tips and suggestions here I have used a lot of them. my point from the beginning was to expose false goals and others trying to attain them. I know its not that critical but some people really take it to heart. cheers

Cool, I do demonstrations for the boyscouts too. I take in all the gear I used to take, and my current gear, and let them try it all on. I also load up one of their leaders with 70 pounds or so, and one of the smaller scouts with my current pack, then get them to race. It's good for a laugh!

I don't give them any brand suggestions or tell them to buy new gear, but I think it's cool to get them thinking about pack weight when they're young. I wish somebody had done that for me! I know scouting is part of what got me into being a backpacker, but I can also see it discouraging youngsters due to the lack of information.

I also show them photos of some of my trips, and explain to them how easier it is to enjoy the scenery when you're not weighted down. I'd love to hear about how you work with the scouts, I'd like some fresh material.

My true weight is 169lbs with body fat and bones included. Minimal weight.

One of my favorites is to have new scouts bring in there packs fully loaded and I bring in mine as well then we weigh in. Next we take everything out and slowly re-pack going over each piece of gear with a list that I have put together each scout gets a bag to put things in that are determined to be not needed or overkill like a whole roll of t.p. It's fun and we get a lot of laughs. Then we weigh in again usually some big surprises. I never put anyone down for anny gear that they have. But i do expose them to gear that I have and like I said before most is homemade or purchased very inexpensively. I also do a backpack cooking session. Kids are fun

I had great fun in the Scouts. I also don't like spending tons on gear. Although my pack and sleeping bag are light, I shopped it to death for a deal. I found a 2 liter hydration blader at wally world for under $10 and will suffice for now.

Haven fun in the middle of nowhere.

Chuck...

When I was a boy sprout my gear consisted of a ruck sac on an aluminum frame, a canteen, some clothes, a rain poncho (cheap), a mess kit, food for 2 days and for shelter a piece of 6mil plastic to construct a lean to shelter. That was it. Oh, and some waterproof matches. I remember winter camping in Idaho, spending 2 nights in a pine bough lean to. What a blast. I have no idea what it weighed but I carry more gear now than back then but it's lighter now.
<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well said WD.

If you keep up your activity, you might have to bump that 90 back about 10 to 15 years. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

This is just my unsupported by facts or scientific tests opinion. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

"Honesty is in the beholder's eye." That said I can say I weigh my pack WITH all food & water. As a lightweight (not UL) backpacker I get 7 days with a 35 lb. "first day" weight. A 35 lb pack with 2.5 liters of water is not bad.

Major items include:

SHELTER> TarpTent Contrail, plastic groundcloth & 6 MSR "Groundhog aluminum stakes

SLEEPING> W.M. Megalite down bag & Thermarest regular length UL pad

COOKING> Vargo Jet-TI burner, reg. fuel canister, JetBoil 1.5. L. pot, plastic cup, Cool Whip plastic bowl & Lexan spoon, SteriPen Adventurer water purifier

PACK> REI Cruise UL size L & 2 REI side pockets

Like I said, lightweight, not U.L. I'll take a little discomfort on the trail for more comfort in camp. ("Balance. Everything is balance." Mr. Miyagi, Karate Kid)

Eric

Hey Mark,

40+ years ago the Order of the Arrow ceremony included sleeping with very little equipment. Do you know the purpose and the equipment allowed?

Okay. Honestly it does not matter that much to me. I could most likely survive a weekend trip if I were buck naked and had a lighter and some power bars - skin out 12 ounces - but it might not be that much fun. So I pack for the trip and each one is different depending on several factors including weather, distance, and location. There are times when I want to go as light as possible and I always have a great time, but there are times when I want to take pictures and sleep comfortably (hammock) and I have fun on those trips as well. I guess my pack weight could be an obsession, but for now it is not.

no but we do survival campouts all the time they are just one nighters in the summertime. The Boys get a kick out of them. sometimes we stay up 1/2 the night sharing stories

There have been several articles and features over at backpackinglight.com in the last year or so about SUL (<5lb. base weight) trips. If you are interested in what kind of gear they are carrying to get everything minus consumables in under that weight, you might want to head over there and check it out.

peace.
ryanc

On my last trip, with a liter and a half of water, a full paperback novel, Crocs for camp shoes, and insulated Aircore, extra GG Nightlite, and 4 days of food, I was at 27 pounds.

You sure that is your true weight? Be honest now, if that is possible. I mean about the 169 pound body weight.

Sounds like some people are more concerned with bragging rights than with drawing a fair comparison. If you want bragging rights then go with the FSO weight. However, if honest comparisons is what you're after then trip length, weather conditions, topography, and personal preference variables must be taken into account. Comparing the FSO weight of someone going on a 3 day trip to that of someone on an 8 day trip just isn't fair.

For a really accurate comparison we'll need body mass index, velocity, bone density, backpack colour, and shoe size. Divide these by your IQ (which for most of us is our shoe size, so that part is easy), multiply by pie (blueberry), and add the last two digits of the year you were born.

Yeah, I see what you're getting at. But see, the thing for me is, I'm *not* concerned with bragging rights, and the fact is you can shuffle weight from those base weights off into the consumables section, which you then don't count (you can trade warmth for extra calories) - all for (guess what) bragging rights. Base weights do not consider the environment either, so my base weight for 3 season trips in the Canadian rockies can be quite different than someone in Arizona. So while I think yes, if we really want to be into bragging rights, base weights may be a closer comparison, realisticly I think they are also deceptive without the context. Just consider for a minute a nice light base weight that you say "wow that's light, you could go for months" - but the response is "well that's just my base weight for a 2 day
trip in nice weather, I don't cook and eat nothing but clif bars - if I was out for longer I'd take a stove
and cooking gear" - without the context, and what *else* is being carried the base is useless.

Charles's very nice examples on the board for beginners (the 18 pound 3 day, and 27 pound 7 day packs) include that context, and I think are a reasonably useful way of presenting something like this.

I agree with "fish" and "phat". I've seen many weights thrown around here but no real standards for fair comparison.
SO...we need to agree upon just what we're carrying for valid comparisons. (Yes, the agreeing is the hard part here.)


FOR EXAMPLE:

TRIP LENGTH> six days (W/five nights) - period (This is mainly for fuel calculation)

SEASON/TEMP RANGE> summer at 50 F to 90 F

SHELTER> At least a tarp(AND ground cloth), hammock or bivy.

CLOTHING> One change of underwear & socks and one insulating item like a light vest which can be used to extend sleeping bag temp. range. These are absolute minimums for clothing.

SLEEPING> Bag or quilt and at least a 3/4 length mattress of some sort.

PACK> minimum size 2,500 cu. in.(?) or whatever ya kin git yer stuff to fit in.

COOKING> One pot, one cup, one utensil, one stove, fuel (includes tinder for wood stoves) and "fire starter" like lighter, matches, etc.

RAIN GEAR> Poncho or parka minimum. Pants/gaiters if ya like (NO Gatewood Cape/shelter deals.) (Quit whining!)

FIRST AID & BLISTER KIT> your choice, your risk

HEADLAMP/FLASHLIGHT/SPARE BATTERIES> It may be tiny but it's gotta be there.

WATER PURIFICATION> If ya boil ya gotta consider fuel/tinder.

WATER CONTAINER(S)> Can't carry it in yer hat!

ROUTEFINGING STUFF> Map, compass (and - but not OR - GPS if ya like)

TOILET KIT> of some sort.

That's it! No consumables weight, no water weight, no "what yer wearing" weight,
Just what equipment yer carryin' weight.

These suggestions say that ALL must carry some version of what is listed. Yes, I realize you may use a poncho/tarp combo but most don't. Yes I know many won't take a map or compass on a blazed trail. But remember we are COMPAIRING and these are COMPARISON STANDARDS of necessities for non-risky travel.

Eric

Maybe in Nevada. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In summer it can easily get to 40 (from a 95 degree day) here in the Cascades.

Eric,

I hardly ever carry rain gear. My poncho and a wind shirt are all I need. The poncho IS my rainfly on the hammock or my shelter depending on the trip.

I drink my cocoa from a 20 oz. Gatorade bottle that I also use while I hike. I think BearPaw uses the same technique with a 16 oz. Nalgene.

In the hammock I seldom carry a pad.

Since the stove canister weight is considered a consumable then I should not have to count the weight of the alcohol container.

I have been snowed on during the day on the 4th of July. I think a 3 season kit has to take you to freezing.

I think a camera should be a part of base weight.

Thank you for a very good start at establishing standards.

>SEASON/TEMP RANGE> summer at 50 F to 90 F

Heh. not here kimo - summer has to get me to freezingish and a little below <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

>SHELTER> At least a tarp(AND ground cloth), hammock or bivy.

Ground cloth.. bah.... may will disagree here if they take full pads.

>CLOTHING> One change of underwear & socks and one insulating item like a light vest which can be used to extend sleeping bag temp. range. These are absolute minimums for clothing.

Underwear? I though commando was lighter...

PACK> minimum size 2,500 cu. in.(?) or whatever ya kin git yer stuff to fit in.

2500? bah, I did 5 night trips last year on an 1800 CI pack. interestingly your choice of
timing matters here, on a 6 night out trip, I'd have had to resort to a bigger one.

>COOKING> One pot, one cup, one utensil, one stove, fuel (includes tinder for wood stoves) and "fire >starter" like lighter, matches, etc.

Cup? that's what the pot is for.. isn't fuel consumable?

>RAIN GEAR> Poncho or parka minimum. Pants/gaiters if ya like (NO Gatewood Cape/shelter deals.) >(Quit whining!)

I can think of lots of places I'd just do a windshirt and fleece.

>WATER PURIFICATION> If ya boil ya gotta consider fuel/tinder.

but it's consumable!!!! so I can have 3 litres of gas to save 125 ml of aquamira and my base
weight is lower!

>ROUTEFINGING STUFF> Map, compass (and - but not OR - GPS if ya like)

I never take this on posted trails I'm familiar with. I do elsewhere.

>TOILET KIT> of some sort.

Again - consumables.....

>That's it! No consumables weight, no water weight, no "what yer wearing" weight,
>Just what equipment yer carryin' weight.

You're counting fuel and TP, Tinder, etc. all consumables - at least judging by some of the
"mine is smaller than yours" base weight lists I've seen out there.

>These suggestions say that ALL must carry some version of what is listed. Yes, I realize you may >use a poncho/tarp combo but most don't. Yes I know many won't take a map or compass on a >blazed trail. But remember we are COMPAIRING and these are COMPARISON STANDARDS of >necessities for non-risky travel.

I don't think in particular a ponch/tarp combo is that far out there. I see where you're going, but I think then the comparison standards become somewhat restricting too. One of the reasons many of us are lighter is we trade on experience and a knowledge of where we are going to stay safe and comfy with less gear. Otherwise you get into the realm of carrying solar stills in the canadian rockies in case you get stuck without water - or my frobisher parka in arizona in case an ice age hits while you're out. Yes, I'm being somewhat ridiculous, but it's just taking the "standards" to the nth degree of the standards that have boy scout weight people taking cameras, a copy of their field guide, a rambo knife, GPS, cell phone, laptop, and expresso machine "just in case" - and I may take every single one
of those items on certain trips with certain goals in mind. Just definately not usually.

To me, context is everything. I'd much rather see lists like on the left side, with a general "notion" of
where and what they are to be used for, with a good idea of *everything* than base weights out of
context, and I don't think you can make one context for all - Certainly you'll have issues jamming people like Me, up north, with a context useful for Brum in mexico. Or frankly, even me and someone
from BC like mattress - For example, your specification of a ground cloth - I can and have slept under a poncho tarp in the rockies on a ccf pad. no ground cloth. In many of the places I go there I know this is absolutely fine in Alberta, where I'm going to have well drained decent ground to do it on. - Go to coastal BC and there's no way I'd do it - I'd want me a ground cloth. For that matter if there's fruit spiders forget it, I wanna be in my hammock, but that's my irrational phobias kicking in again..

There is no magic bullet for comparison, but I think what's more fun is to show "before and after" lists.. compare what you were like before lightening up. What are some of the advantages? Where have you gone that you couldn't get to before? What are mornings like now, compared to before? How many people have you converted to light-weight status? How many miles a day is enjoyable now, compared to before? etc.

I got a bit of flack for posting my gear list (and because it was under 10 pounds and lacked some items) but I don't think anyone should feel bad for posting their gear list. Amongst the flack, I got some good advice and tips, and hopefully it gave other people inspiration too.

Fair? That word in your context implies some sort of competition. I backpack to get way from competition. When I want to compete I enter sanctioned, structured events where everyone is subject to the same written, objective rules.

If this is a competition, where is the rule book?

It's only a "fair" competition if everyone is competing, and competing under the same rules. That's never going to happen. As others have said, there are just too many variables to draw a "fair" comparison.

I do care about weight and I do weigh my pack. But when I see someone with a lighter pack I don't get jealous. Honestly. I just don't see the point in comparing my pack to anyone else's.

There's no way on this earth I'm going to be comfortable in camp with a 5 pound pack. If I'm not comfortable I'm not having fun. And if I'm not having fun I don't see the point in going out. If I want to suffer I'll enter a race.

Realistically, I'm not going to cover fewer miles, be less comfortable, or go much slower with a 15 pound pack than with a 5 pound pack.

Phat,

AHA! Now we get down to personal weight "shaving" preferences.

i.e. no cup, no groundcloth, "going commando", etc.

And to each his or her own. So we'll never get the broad beyond definitions of weight categories such as "Skin Out Weight" or "Non Consumable Pack Weight".

But when someone says, "THIS is my fantastically low pack weight." and does not carry rain gear or a mattress or a first aid kit, etc. etc., then they are only fooling themselves when it gets really wet or cold or they are hurt.

Sure, experience counts for the ability to leave a FEW items at home on a FEW trips. But like the "Lighten UP" book shows, in the cartoons of the various types of light weight backpackers, the guy with a tiny 5 lb. pack is a bit looney looking...and acting

There is light and there is dangerously light by omission of "safety" items.

And like the title of this thread, being "HONEST", both with yourself and with others, about just how you achieved that light(er) pack weight is paramount for a valid discussion. Me? I 'fess up that I achieved my light pack weight mainly by spending on such expensive items as $100. SteriPens, $350. WM down bags, etc.

Eric

That much, yes I'll agree with. I just think dangerously light is really context dependant on the location and the individual. And FWIW, the only thing I normally go without is a groundcloth, and then only because I hammock <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I have a really crappy light plastic cup
(although I could easily go without). And I also don't go commando <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

This thread brings up a good point....every ounce does count and that is whether it is in your pack or in your pockets or what you are wearing or even the extra fat around your midsection. All should be taken into account.

But I know your main point is that people's claims of low pack wait should be greeted with some skepticism because people "fudge" the numbers, either intentionally or otherwise.

Good point.

Oh, I dunno, some intentionally, some not. I'm tempted to go put together a SUL list
from my gear - I don't claim to be in such a category, but I bet I could be pretty easy..

The difference is I would *not* be comfortable doing it. My gear list (see my profile)
is light, but definately not ultra (mega, giga, whatever). There's still stuff I could toss
out of that pack if I wanted to be uncomfortable, but surviving.

Everyone has their own idea of at what point they are uncomfortable.

and that's really my point i think ultra- lite backpackers are an elite group. I have learned so much from forums. But I just want to go out with the least amount of gear (on most of my trips) Ido family and friends trips that I take extra gear but I started this forum stating people to be honest about what they bring out. Mainly false conceptions of what others might perceive as a true weight to follow
does anyone get what i'm tryin to say?

My first trip up and around Mt. Rainier after I moved had me learning that _very_ quickly.

I do not believe ultra-lighters are an elite group. There are many members of this forum that have the skill and gear to hike ultra-light, BUT choose to hike lightweight.

I started the lighten up process around my 50th birthday because I realized if I am going to hike another quarter century that I needed to carry less.

Simplfying and decluttering is another powerful motivation.

While I am able and have hiked super ultralight it is not my choice because:

I do not like to sleep in the same clothes I hike in.

I like to have a robust enough shelter to camp high and exposed.

I am willing to carry the extra weight to sleep in a hammock.

I carry a 3 cup pot so I can boil a pint rather than boil a cup twice.

I carry gear because I enjoy using it and not because I am afraid to be in the backcountry without it. "What if" adds less than a pound to my pack.

US water is cleaner now than it was in the 60s. The Clean Water Act was passed in 1972. I drank untreated water in the 60s and supect it would be safer today, BUT I use treatment anyhow.

The super ultra lighters are not elite - they have made a choice. Hiking with a sub 5 pound base weight is a challenge, but once you have the T-shirt you are free to pursue you own goals.

Ok, I will soften my opinion. Maybe it is a matter of definition.

I consider base weight to be technique. For example the owner of zpacks hiked the PCT with a sub 5 pound base weight. His accomplishment was hiking the PCT using the SUL technique.

Elite infers competition. Maybe I get that from the sports "elite eight."

IMO anyone that is willing to put in the time, energy and money can master the SUL technique. If you join the armed forces special operations they will even pay you to master the SUL technique (M16 and ammo is not a part of base weight.)

I think you are trying to make a really good point. But, I think it is too much. It might be OK for bragging rights, but not for educational purposes. Here is my attempt to steal your idea with a little less.

TRIP LENGTH> six days (W/five nights) - period (This is mainly for fuel calculation)

AO> area of operations and time of year.

Count consumables. I think this is important because this is were a lot of weight can be shaved or added. Sure, the big three are important, but you can have a sub 5lb big 3 and still carry a 50lber.

Count items carried out of pack ie. shoes, clothes worn....

By listing the AO and counting consumables, I think a lot is evened out. Phat might carry more gear in summer to stay warm, but Pika would probably carry more water. It would be interesting to see how it turns out.

Just my take on things. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I know it isn't a competition for me. Neither is it bragging rights. In fact I don't even tell anyone what my weight is that I carry on any particular trip. The only reason I use a FSO as a metric is because it IS only for me. If I have to choose between one gear list and another, and I want the weight of them, then I need a complete list of everything including consumables. I am honest with myself of what I am carrying. I do not need to worry about geography or terrain since that is a constant for me on that trip. The only variable is the weight I will be carrying, and that must include everything. One reason is the weight mike make a difference in the number of miles I will be able to do. My body does not care if it in my pack or in my pocket.

I now see what others are saying in this thread because I suppose some others do compare with each other. That idea is foreign to me, which is why I initially answered as I did.

Summer 50-90??? My backpack conditions are NEVER that warm. Herein lies the problem with "setting a standard".

Let's just say:

lighter = better -- MUST be subject to safety
ligher = better -- OPTIONALLY subject to comfort
lighter = better -- ONLY IF you are still having fun!

Safety is a must; comfort is an option; fun is the whole point of going backpacking. "safety", "comfort" and "fun" are all subjective. Each person has his own threshold for each criterion. And backpacking is quite regional -what works in one place will not work in another.

Over time, we should ALL be striving to lighten our packs. The UL folks test a product and when it works, I try to adopt it myself! I am actually grateful for all the new UL gear out there, even though I choose not go totally UL myself.

As far as "honesty". Well, once you put on the pack and start up the hill dishonesty will become aparant! I weigh all my stuff for each trip because it is SO easy to slip in "just one more thing" an soon end up with an ugly uncomfortable pack. Rarely do I have justification for a 60# pound pack. (Exception is a long backcountry technical climbing expedition).

Put this into perspective. I started backpacking in 1966. Our boots alone weighed 5 pounds! Although our gear was heavier, we took less items. No GPS. No bear cannisters. We cooked on fires. No stoves or gas. Ironic thing is that tarps were quite popular back then. A pack weight of 40 pounds was considered light. 70 pound packs were not that unusual. A lot of us started backpacking with military surplus gear. Now I look at a 45 pound pack as heavy and do not consider my pack light until it reachs 20 pounds. Now, that is progess! Not only is it progress, it allows me to continue backpacking as I age. It is a miracle!

UL is not new. I always think of John Muir as the ultimate UL hiker with his woolen coat, probably 10 pounds, but little more than a pocket full of biscuits - who would go out for days. He made beds of tree limbs (not exactly considered environmentally kosher today!). People were tough back then. They were weaned on discomfort. We are a bit spoiled nowadays. John Muir simply accepted cold uncomfortable nights as a given. People in general in John Muir's day had a very high threshold for discomfort and risk.

be honest is still an honest question my question is what is your ultra or super ultra i have a given weight that i like to acheive no matter what but like i said before i have family and friends cond. my point is if you carry it 99% percent of the time cmon ut it into your base

I like the U.S. Army Ranger unofficial motto: "Travel light, freeze at night."

That about says it all for the UUL sub 10 lb. lunatic fringe.

Of course the Rangers aren't REALLY traveling light, what with rifles, ammo, grenades, Claymore mines, flares, etc., etc. They sleep in ponchos with quilted liners. (Aarrrggghh!) huddled in groups for more warmth.

Hey Winni
Comon dude, some of my best nights sleep was under a pile of claymores. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> OOps we were being honest. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

There is way too much competition with little real even comparison. There is one major difference - to some it matters - to some it doesn't and they don't wish to compete but still go as light as they want. I think most of us after a while want to warm and dry when we camp elst wise why not stay at the lodge by the fire? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Also most of us go for some reason other to say we went UL, <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> so we carry some mission hardware, like a camera or some other toys. You have to be stripped of luxeries and toys to be UL. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I don't think you necessarily "freeze at night."

I'm thinking of the gear I have sitting here. let's see,


as long as I am ABOVE FREEZING:

Sleeping Exped Wallcreeper synthetic: 33 Oz
CCF pad 10 Oz

Shelter/Rain Gear/Packcover
ID Silponcho 16 Oz

Pack: MEC Alpinelite 30 18 oz
Penny Stove + 3 cup pot + stand + cozy + foil windscreen 7 oz

2L platypus 2oz
little thing of pristine 2 oz


Clothing
MEC northern lite pullover 11 oz
Extra socks and liners 4 oz
Ragg Wool gloves 2 oz
2 merino wool shirts 10 oz
midweight long johns 6 oz
Wind Shirt 3 oz
Fleece toque 2 oz
Mosquito headnet 1 oz

First Aid Kit, Swiss Army knife, lighter, micro light, lip balm, bug dope, sunscreen
in ditty bag 8 oz

Stuff sacks + ziplocs 3 oz

There, that totals to 138 oz, - so roughly an 8 pound base.

I know I wont freeze in it, because it's basically my spring/summer/early fall rig for the rockies without the second tarp and hammock. Now, I'll probably be kinda uncomfortable sleeping on the ground, but I aint gonna freeze, I know I'm comfortable in that clothing and bag at night.

I haven't included food, water, or what I'm wearing while hiking. (a poly shirt, convertible pants, brim hat, boots or trailrunners, and poles)

I could probably add food for a couple of days and a litre of water for another 5-6 pounds, so I'd be carrying a 14 pound pack. Will I do that? hell no, I'll carry a 22 pound
pack and be comfy. Any fool can be uncomfortable <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Grunt - Now I just picked up my packed bag to go to jasper in the morning for an overnighter in the snow.... snow and -10 puts a whole different dimension on things <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Heck, just the 70 litre MEC pack to hold it all weighs 7 pounds <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

grunt grunt grunt... If I didn't have to stop and be sedentary I wouldn't need all this clothing....

A ranger friend of mine said they usually only brought a gortex bivy and a poncho liner to sleep in, plus some rain gear. Add a few MREs and a little snivel gear, and that is it for personal stuff. In the end, their pack weighs around 100lbs. That is without the 30lb flack Jacket and ammo vest.

Sometimes I am glad I didn't do it. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Eric, I agree. Your list consists of a bit less gear than I carry. I have added extra fuel, extra cloths, extra food and I carry 2 liters of water and 2 sources of light, a Petzel and a AAA mini mag flashlight. My pack weight is right at 26 lbs. and that is as light as I'm comfortable with. That weight DOES NOT include me, my clothes or boots or hiking staff etc., only my loaded pack.

Well, I'm not a fool and I'm not intentionaly going to make myself uncomfortable while pursueing something that's supposed to be enjoyable. 26 lbs, includes a 3 lb 3400 C.I. pack. 26 lbs is the weight of the pack on the start of the trip.
I just bought a food dehydrator so my pack weight will probably go up with all the extra lightweight snacks I can now carry. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Daisy,

Your "equations" on lighter being balanced by safety, comfort and fun are exactamundo! I couldn't have said it as well, English teacher that I am.

Not only will "dishonesty" be revealed 5 miles up the trail as the weight tells its tale when overloaded, but it will also tell in an all day downpour, frigid or buggy night when under equipped.

Yeah, the Boy Scouts and their equipment in the '50s taught me what "roughing it" really meant. Mercifully that era is long gone.

Thanks to all the backpacking innovators beginning with Kelty we are now in an era of lightweight comfort that just keeps getting better. Think just ten years ago. No I-Pods, no SteriPens, no sil nylon ready made tents, no Caldera Cones, etc., etc.

I remember seeing an Explorer Scout wearing a new Kelty frame pack in 1960. I was stunned at its obvious comfort and innovation. My heavy Army Bergans style surplus pack looked like an anvil in comparison. ESPECIALLY without a padded hip belt.

Eric

I stumbled across this post during a search - and I liked it. But let me start by saying that what Rumsfeld said was 'You go to war with what you have' -- what he meant was ' You send someone else to war with what you have.' I really doubt that jerk would be willing to put himself in harms way, but he is eager to send others. And, yes I am ex-military.
Now that I got that off my chest - I totally agree with Daisy. I am somewhere in the mid range. I don't have a camp chair, but I take a good camera. I tarp camp because I like the openess. I might take some heavy food if it sounds good. That sorta person. I used to be a heavy weight packer -- man I brought everything. You should have seen some of my loads in the old days - real knee crushers. And that brings me to my current pack. I found this sight several years ago and lurked around. I had knee injury that I was nursing and rehabilitating and heard about this Jardine dude that carried a light pack - that sounded good to me. A google search and here I was. Learned a lot of good stuff. And now my pack is substantially lighter.
So I guess if I want to carry it, I will. Ever mindful of the knee leaves me with self imposed boundaries, but other than that I don't sweat it too much.

OK Honestly, below is what I take. And I am very, very comfy with it. I have been in deluges, and weathered slight snow with this set up. I have also been a little too warm with this set up in the summer. And if you notice I have quite the list of clothing taken, not worn. When I made this list I pulled everything out and wrote it up as If I was packing it, so as to give a true base weight and not leave anything out. Hence even the calcutlation fo rtp on a 3-4 day trek. I hope this is honest enough for you, becaue it doesn't get much more honest.

Gear List

Catagory Item Weight (grams) Notes

Backpack
Zilch 1800 ci 122 Custom
Sub Total 122

Shelter
6x9 Cuben Tarp 116 Seam sealed
Ground Cloth 48 Polycryo
Ti Stakes 50 8 Stakes
Guy Line kit 4
Cuben Stuff Sack 4 (6 x 6.5 in)

SubTotal 222

Sleeping
WM HightLIte 512 35F
Cuben Stuff Sack 8 (7 x 13.5 in)
Pad/Pack Frame 270 MB UL.90
Sub Total 790

Cooking
Heiny 350 20 W/Lid
Stove 8
Windscreen 10
Fuel Bottle 20 4.5 oz capacity
Matches 4 Paper Book
Spoon 18 Ti Long Handle
Cuben Food Bag 10 (11 x 5.5 x 12 in)
Trash Bag 12 Heavy Duty 1/2 Gal Ziplok
Sub Total 102

Hydraton
Platy Bladder 102 3L W/Hose
Treatment 18 Klear water 10cc
Sub Total 120

Clothing
Wind Shirt 90 Montane Aero
Down Jacket 232 MB U.L. Inner
Combi Hat 34 Turtle Fur
Gloves 30 Poly Pro
Cuben Stuff Sack 6 (6 x 12 in)
Sub Total 392

First Aid
First Aid Kit 58 In 4x7 AlokSak
Fire Starter 8 Mini Fire Steel
Tinder Quick 2 3 Tinders
Tooth Brush 16 Burts Bees Mini
Soap 6 3cc
DEET 6 3cc
Sunscreen 26 15cc
Cuben Stuff Sack 2 (4.5 x 6 in)
Sub Total 124

MISC.
TP 16 10 BLU Shop Towls 5x5
Towl 8 Lite Load 11x11
Light 24 Watch Battery Type
Knife 36 Gerber Mini
30 Gal Trash Bag 52 Rain Skirt/Poncho
Info Lanyard 48 Cmpss, Thermo, Wstl
Camera 136 Olympus FE 240
Aloksak 6 For Camera 5x4
I.D. & CC Card 8
Cuben Wallet 1 For ID & CC Card (3 x 4 in)
Sub Total 335

TOTAL 2207 Grams
2.2 Kilo
4.8 lbs