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#92748 - 03/16/08 02:14 PM BE HONEST
markshiker Offline
newbie

Registered: 03/16/08
Posts: 8
So I can do an honest lightweight trip with a base pack of just over 5lbs. not including food or water. Shelter is not included either as most trips are in the Sierras and we skirt around most conditions. I don't think its fair when people don't list everything because they are wearing it at first then remove it and it's in there pack for the majority of the trip. C'mon be honest what's your true weight?

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#92749 - 03/16/08 02:23 PM Re: BE HONEST [Re: markshiker]
OregonMouse Offline
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6800
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
That's why "skin-out weight" is so important. It's easy to load your pockets up with stuff and not include it in the pack weight. The base weight is the place to work on getting your total pack weight down, but ultimately your feet have to carry everything--both skin-out weight and the extra weight that some of us have under our skins!

Which reminds me that I probably should be including my glasses and my wristwatch in my skin-out weight. I am not, however, going to weigh or list my partial denture. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Although maybe I should; I left it behind at a campsite once last summer!
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#92750 - 03/16/08 02:38 PM Re: BE HONEST [Re: markshiker]
ringtail Offline
member

Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 2296
Loc: Colorado Rockies
Mark,

I take enough gear to accomplish my goals for the trip. The pack gets lighter for fast and light trips. In fact for a 24 hour R.O.G.A.I.N.E. I would use a medium fanny pack with about a 3 pound base weight. For a solo six night trip where I need to carry 5 quarts of water the base weight creeps up to about 16.

Fewer miles makes for a heavier pack because I might want some camp toys - maybe even a fishing pole.

I do not mind going without a stove for up to two nights in warm weather.

I take fall trips where my goal is to find a high enough point with trees so I can lay in my hammock and listen to a football game on a radio.

I match my kit to the trip. I prefer that my goals and not gear be the focus of the trip.


Edited by food (03/16/08 02:39 PM)

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#92751 - 03/16/08 02:47 PM Re: BE HONEST [Re: OregonMouse]
DTape Offline
member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 666
Loc: Upstate NY
Quote:
That's why "skin-out weight" is so important. It's easy to load your pockets up with stuff and not include it in the pack weight. The base weight is the place to work on getting your total pack weight down, but ultimately your feet have to carry everything--both skin-out weight and the extra weight that some of us have under our skins!

Which reminds me that I probably should be including my glasses and my wristwatch in my skin-out weight. I am not, however, going to weigh or list my partial denture. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Although maybe I should; I left it behind at a campsite once last summer!



Bingo! The only true measure is FSO (from skin out) weight, not "base". And it must include food and water since it is being carried.

OM I;d say since your partial denture is in your mouth, you don't have to count it. Then again, we might have people start stuffing gear in their mouth (and other places... ewww) so they can claim a lower FSO weight.
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#92752 - 03/16/08 03:09 PM Re: BE HONEST [Re: DTape]
markshiker Offline
newbie

Registered: 03/16/08
Posts: 8
I agree too. Thats why I said that I don't usually carry a shelter. But I don't agree with adding in fuel, water, and food. They are consumables and never have a consistent weight..never. But you are right every trip is specific and I really enjoy the carrying as little as possible it makes me feel more independant and for lack of any better term "in touch"

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#92753 - 03/16/08 04:25 PM Re: BE HONEST [Re: markshiker]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada

Trouble is fuel water and food have to matter -- what if you're carrying canister stove, so you have canisters - then you have to allot for the weight of the empty canisters... so it's
a bit iffy not to include.

I think you just need to be completely honest about what you are carrying and for what trip, me, I just weight the pack loaded up with water and consumables. Getting into 4 different kinds of weights just sounds like an exercise in chestbeating to me <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
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#92754 - 03/16/08 04:38 PM Re: BE HONEST [Re: markshiker]
Eric Offline
member

Registered: 09/23/02
Posts: 294
Loc: The State of Jefferson
Of course if you're talking about the weight your feet have to carry, then body weight becomes an issue. I realized one day while tying to shave a few ounces of my gear that I was carrying around 5 pounds of unneeded fat I'd put on over the winter and that loosing the weight would help way more than cutting the handle of my toothbrush...

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#92755 - 03/16/08 04:43 PM Re: BE HONEST [Re: Eric]
chaz Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Tennessee
Yep. I gained a few pounds during the winter too. But I just cut the handle of the toothbrush.Well, half of it anyway.

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#92756 - 03/16/08 05:04 PM Re: BE HONEST [Re: phat]
chaz Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Tennessee
I agree. Weigh it full of everything you have in your pack. I don't weigh what I'm wearing cause, most of the time," since I was a very young child", I've been wearing clothes. I feel like if I'm happy with my pack weight and it doesn't bother me, what does it matter. I'm not out to run a relay. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I don't keep up with anyone or worry if someone can keep up with my pace. If I get tired, I stop and chill for a few minutes and enjoy the view. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Might add a day or so to my trip. No worries, see you when I get back. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Enjoy your next trip...

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#92757 - 03/16/08 05:13 PM Re: BE HONEST [Re: markshiker]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2865
Loc: California
Not that I am a Rumsfield fan, but "you go to war with what you have, not what you want" also applies to backpacking. I go out with what I have. I do not have the $$ to simply go out and buy the latest lightest stuff.

I count EVERYTHING! On the back, on the body, all food, all fuel, all water carried. Body fat? I do not have any! And add the stupid bear cannister! So count me in for the ultra-heavy crowd! I'm at the 20 pound range for a weekend, 35-40 pounds for a 10-day trip - high altitude, camping at 11,000 feet, freezing at night, off-trail, solo, seeing nobody in 8 days or more. I cannot beg, borrow or steal off anyone. Often I have to throw in an ice axe. My camera is a must so when I am 90 I can sit back and look at my photos while drooling in my wheelchair.

I really think it is kind of a stupid question. If I simply wanted to prove I could survive on a 10-day trip, yes, I could take 5 pounds. That is not why I backpack. On the other hand, if that is your thing - go for it.

I say, go out, get going - do it! If you have old heavy stuff, so what? It's better to go out and do something than agonize over your UL status. I buy one or two light items each year. I am gradually getting to the light side. But I need my $$ to buy gas, so I can go out!

My S.O. can sleep fuzzy warm at freezing temps in a 1-pound bag. Me, I freeze when the thermostat goes down to 68! I consider my 10-degree bag a 32-degree bag. Everyone is different.

Bottom line - lighter pack = more comfortable walking, less comfortable camping. You find your own balance between the two. The most important thing is to go backpacking.

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#92758 - 03/16/08 05:21 PM Re: BE HONEST [Re: Eric]
DTape Offline
member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 666
Loc: Upstate NY
There is a lot of truth to that. Your body fat is also food if your caloric intake is too low. I believe Ryan Jordan accounted for loss of body mass in his caloric computations when he did his unsupported Arctic 1000.

In the end, all that really matters is that you are happy out on the trail doing what you enjoy. Whatever that may be. HYOH.
_________________________
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#92759 - 03/16/08 06:07 PM Re: BE HONEST [Re: chaz]
Mattress Offline
member

Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 109
Loc: Victoria, BC, Canada
I think if it is something you're concerned or passionate about, it is important to know the difference between base weight, skin out weight, body weight, etc. When I had a heavier pack and heavy boots, I don't think it made any difference if my pants were 1oz heavier, or if I had a granola bar or compass in my pocket. At the end of the day, my feet were sore, my shoulders ached, and my back was in agony.

Now I hike with those exact same pants, but light weight trail running shoes and a light pack. When I load up with 8 days of food, yeah my shoulders might get a little sore, but if my base weight is as low as I can get it, then the food and fuel weight has less of an impact. 20 pounds of food, fuel, and water on a 10 pound base is 30 pounds, the same on a 20 pound base is 40. It makes a big difference, especially near the end of your hike and your pack now weighs 15 instead of 25 pounds!

As others have said, safety and comfort are important, but chipping away at your gear over years (I've spent 10 years getting my pack weight down since my 'awakening' to light weight hiking) is a great way to improve your backpacking enjoyment. You don't have to run out and buy everything all at once, I do a bit of overtime at work in the winter and that's my gear budget.
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#92760 - 03/16/08 06:16 PM Re: BE HONEST [Re: markshiker]
markshiker Offline
newbie

Registered: 03/16/08
Posts: 8
This is good feedback. I get really engrossed in putting less on my back. my gear is not expensive at all. I get out an awful lot and i love re-fining gear choices its not the most important thing but its fun. I also teach Boy Scouts how to lighten up and one of my biggest selling points is finding low cost lightweight items. i especially like looking at tips and suggestions here I have used a lot of them. my point from the beginning was to expose false goals and others trying to attain them. I know its not that critical but some people really take it to heart. cheers

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#92761 - 03/16/08 06:39 PM Re: BE HONEST [Re: markshiker]
Mattress Offline
member

Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 109
Loc: Victoria, BC, Canada
Cool, I do demonstrations for the boyscouts too. I take in all the gear I used to take, and my current gear, and let them try it all on. I also load up one of their leaders with 70 pounds or so, and one of the smaller scouts with my current pack, then get them to race. It's good for a laugh!

I don't give them any brand suggestions or tell them to buy new gear, but I think it's cool to get them thinking about pack weight when they're young. I wish somebody had done that for me! I know scouting is part of what got me into being a backpacker, but I can also see it discouraging youngsters due to the lack of information.

I also show them photos of some of my trips, and explain to them how easier it is to enjoy the scenery when you're not weighted down. I'd love to hear about how you work with the scouts, I'd like some fresh material.
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http://lighterload.blogspot.com/

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#92762 - 03/16/08 06:47 PM Re: BE HONEST [Re: markshiker]
Aviprk Offline
member

Registered: 10/26/05
Posts: 82
My true weight is 169lbs with body fat and bones included. Minimal weight.

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#92763 - 03/17/08 05:00 AM Re: BE HONEST [Re: Mattress]
markshiker Offline
newbie

Registered: 03/16/08
Posts: 8
One of my favorites is to have new scouts bring in there packs fully loaded and I bring in mine as well then we weigh in. Next we take everything out and slowly re-pack going over each piece of gear with a list that I have put together each scout gets a bag to put things in that are determined to be not needed or overkill like a whole roll of t.p. It's fun and we get a lot of laughs. Then we weigh in again usually some big surprises. I never put anyone down for anny gear that they have. But i do expose them to gear that I have and like I said before most is homemade or purchased very inexpensively. I also do a backpack cooking session. Kids are fun

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#92764 - 03/17/08 05:40 AM Re: BE HONEST [Re: markshiker]
chaz Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Tennessee
I had great fun in the Scouts. I also don't like spending tons on gear. Although my pack and sleeping bag are light, I shopped it to death for a deal. I found a 2 liter hydration blader at wally world for under $10 and will suffice for now.

Haven fun in the middle of nowhere.

Chuck...

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#92765 - 03/17/08 05:53 AM Re: BE HONEST [Re: Mattress]
chaz Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Tennessee
When I was a boy sprout my gear consisted of a ruck sac on an aluminum frame, a canteen, some clothes, a rain poncho (cheap), a mess kit, food for 2 days and for shelter a piece of 6mil plastic to construct a lean to shelter. That was it. Oh, and some waterproof matches. I remember winter camping in Idaho, spending 2 nights in a pine bough lean to. What a blast. I have no idea what it weighed but I carry more gear now than back then but it's lighter now.
<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Enjoy your next trip...

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#92766 - 03/17/08 05:58 AM Re: BE HONEST [Re: wandering_daisy]
ringtail Offline
member

Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 2296
Loc: Colorado Rockies
Well said WD.

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#92767 - 03/17/08 10:07 AM Re: BE HONEST [Re: wandering_daisy]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Quote:
My camera is a must so when I am 90 I can sit back and look at my photos while drooling in my wheelchair.


If you keep up your activity, you might have to bump that 90 back about 10 to 15 years. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

This is just my unsupported by facts or scientific tests opinion. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
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I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

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#92768 - 03/17/08 10:14 AM Re: BE "HONEST" [Re: markshiker]
300winmag Offline
member

Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 1342
Loc: Nevada, USA
"Honesty is in the beholder's eye." That said I can say I weigh my pack WITH all food & water. As a lightweight (not UL) backpacker I get 7 days with a 35 lb. "first day" weight. A 35 lb pack with 2.5 liters of water is not bad.

Major items include:

SHELTER> TarpTent Contrail, plastic groundcloth & 6 MSR "Groundhog aluminum stakes

SLEEPING> W.M. Megalite down bag & Thermarest regular length UL pad

COOKING> Vargo Jet-TI burner, reg. fuel canister, JetBoil 1.5. L. pot, plastic cup, Cool Whip plastic bowl & Lexan spoon, SteriPen Adventurer water purifier

PACK> REI Cruise UL size L & 2 REI side pockets

Like I said, lightweight, not U.L. I'll take a little discomfort on the trail for more comfort in camp. ("Balance. Everything is balance." Mr. Miyagi, Karate Kid)

Eric


Edited by 300winmag (03/18/08 10:18 AM)
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#92769 - 03/17/08 10:21 AM Re: BE HONEST [Re: markshiker]
ringtail Offline
member

Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 2296
Loc: Colorado Rockies
Hey Mark,

40+ years ago the Order of the Arrow ceremony included sleeping with very little equipment. Do you know the purpose and the equipment allowed?

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#92770 - 03/17/08 02:14 PM Re: BE HONEST [Re: markshiker]
hootyhoo Offline
member

Registered: 12/14/06
Posts: 686
Loc: Cyberspace
Okay. Honestly it does not matter that much to me. I could most likely survive a weekend trip if I were buck naked and had a lighter and some power bars - skin out 12 ounces - but it might not be that much fun. So I pack for the trip and each one is different depending on several factors including weather, distance, and location. There are times when I want to go as light as possible and I always have a great time, but there are times when I want to take pictures and sleep comfortably (hammock) and I have fun on those trips as well. I guess my pack weight could be an obsession, but for now it is not.

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#92771 - 03/17/08 05:16 PM Re: BE HONEST [Re: ringtail]
markshiker Offline
newbie

Registered: 03/16/08
Posts: 8
no but we do survival campouts all the time they are just one nighters in the summertime. The Boys get a kick out of them. sometimes we stay up 1/2 the night sharing stories

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#92772 - 03/17/08 11:00 PM Re: BE HONEST [Re: markshiker]
demo Offline
member

Registered: 04/07/04
Posts: 221
Loc: Arkansan displaced in the PNW
There have been several articles and features over at backpackinglight.com in the last year or so about SUL (<5lb. base weight) trips. If you are interested in what kind of gear they are carrying to get everything minus consumables in under that weight, you might want to head over there and check it out.

peace.
ryanc
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