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#88393 - 01/29/08 07:13 AM Stove tests
movingmountain Offline
member

Registered: 10/03/03
Posts: 61

I don't know if you have seen this test of a lot of different alcohol stoves someone did over at backpacker.com forums:

http://www.backpacker.com/cgi-bin/forums/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=973107219;t=9991095726

Here is the link of the results:

http://www.runswiftwhippets.com/Hikes/small%20pot%202%20cups%20lid.html

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#88394 - 01/29/08 04:49 PM Re: Stove tests [Re: movingmountain]
sabre11004 Offline
member

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 513
Loc: Tennessee
I don't know where these stoves are coming from because I have a number of those stoves all of which will out do the stoves and boil times described here. I looked at some of the pictures and I have seen some of these stoves around but the prior results that I have seen are much different than the results that I am seeing here.
Not to mention that I have, Oh, I will guess and say that I have around 20-30 of these stoves and the worst one will out perform any of the stoves you see tested here. I used colder water (50 degree), same amount (4 cups) and have achieved boil times as quickly as 3-4 minutes. In most cases I could get two boils out of each burn and most of my stoves will roll boil 4 cups of water in around 6-7 minutes....Hopes this helps...Happy Trekking...sabre11004

The first step that you take will be one of those that will get you there.... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
The first step that you take will be one of those that get you there 1!!!!!

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#88395 - 01/29/08 04:55 PM Re: Stove tests [Re: sabre11004]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3983
Loc: Bend, Oregon
sabre11004.
I think we discussed this once before but - please describe how you determine that the water is boiling. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Some have said that the first bubbles of air that appear are boiuling and thus had erronious measurements. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> The first air starts to bubble out at around 80 degrees centigrade. You must wait until the steam lifts the lid off your pot to call it "boiling" as used by others. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#88396 - 01/29/08 05:10 PM Re: Stove tests [Re: sabre11004]
EricKingston Offline
member

Registered: 11/01/02
Posts: 272
Loc: Michigan
Wow... really? 4 cups of 50 degree water probably takes 6-7 minutes on my home stove (if not longer), let alone any alcohol stoves. I guess that I too am curious as to what water temperature you consider to be boiling?

Eric

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#88397 - 01/29/08 05:12 PM Re: Stove tests [Re: movingmountain]
EricKingston Offline
member

Registered: 11/01/02
Posts: 272
Loc: Michigan
I wonder how Jim woods Supercat would perform if you added cotton balls??? I guess I'll have to try it!

Eric

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#88398 - 01/29/08 07:14 PM Re: Stove tests [Re: sabre11004]
jpanderson80 Offline
member

Registered: 07/28/06
Posts: 292
Loc: Memphis, TN
Sabre,
Please tell us your exact methods.. From what I read, those times seem to be pretty fair in the test. I love seeing this kind of stuff. I'm glad that someone else does this kind of thing too. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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#88399 - 01/30/08 06:19 AM Re: Stove tests [Re: sabre11004]
BarryP Offline
member

Registered: 03/04/04
Posts: 1574
Loc: Eastern Idaho
“colder water (50 degree), same amount (4 cups) and have achieved boil times as quickly as 3-4 minutes.”

Another curious person here.

My pepsi stove does 60F, 3 cup H2O, 1oz Heet, in 6.5 minutes (rolling boil with flaring steam) with 2.5 minutes more on top of that and I thought that was good!

The web sight rates which one boils fastest. And, as always, any titanium stove is going to do bad. But I also like to look at how much longer the flame goes. This gives me a good buffer estimate for field use.

-Barry

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#88400 - 01/30/08 06:26 AM Re: Stove tests [Re: movingmountain]
Paddy_Crow Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan
Boiling point is subjective and will introduce variation in results, especially if you don't adjust for barometric pressure. A better method would be to measure how long it takes to attain a temperature rise, say from 50F to 200F. Then you can calculate stove output in whatever units you wish. You can also calculate the efficiency of your setup by weighing how much fuel gets used in the process.

I suspect boiling point gets used because the average person doesn't have an appropriate thermometer. The problem is that it takes quite a bit of energy to go from the onset of boil to a full boil, so deciding just when to stop timing will significantly affect the result.

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#88401 - 01/30/08 07:01 AM Re: Stove tests [Re: Paddy_Crow]
OregonMouse Offline
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
Just a few observations re these tests:

As anyone who has tried to use sea level recipes at high altitude knows, the boiling point of water decreases the higher the altitude (actually, with the air pressure, as Paddy points out). At 7,000 feet (the altitude at which I grew up and learned to cook) it's under 200* F. That may be why I still have a tendency to overcook things if I'm not careful! Here's a table.

The definition most cookbooks use for "boiling" is a full rolling boil.

To make these tests scientific, you really need to record the air pressure and measure the water temperature. To be really scientific, you should conduct the tests in a pressure chamber so the air pressure is exactly the same for all trials.

Out here in the western mountains, most of your fresh water sources (especially if you're trying to use springs or small streams near their source) are closer to 40*F than 50* or 60*.
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

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#88402 - 01/30/08 08:46 AM Re: Stove tests [Re: EricKingston]
sabre11004 Offline
member

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 513
Loc: Tennessee

The temperature that I consider boiling is when the water is trying to get out the pot. I don't just begin to see bubbles on the bottom of the pot and pour it out. I let it roll. I wish that I was smart enough to get pics on here because I have so many different set-ups that there are just too many to describe. Some of them have actually surprised me too. Granted I do have some of them that are closer to the test that you see here but I really do have a couple of set-ups that will blow most any thing away that you see tested here....Hope this helps....Happy Trekking...sabre11004



The first step that you take is one of those that will get you there... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
The first step that you take will be one of those that get you there 1!!!!!

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#88403 - 01/30/08 08:48 AM Re: Stove tests [Re: Jimshaw]
sabre11004 Offline
member

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 513
Loc: Tennessee




Yep!!!! That's about where I am with that !!!!!!!!! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
The first step that you take will be one of those that get you there 1!!!!!

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#88404 - 01/30/08 08:52 AM Re: Stove tests [Re: BarryP]
sabre11004 Offline
member

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 513
Loc: Tennessee



Barry P, I would hold on to that system. It seems to work very well. I always like to have extra burn time too as I like to boil water to drink and to clean up with later after dinner or breakfast or whatever...Something else that I did not mention is that a lot of these different set-ups are coming in at different weights too. Some are heavier than others...Naturally speaking, but then again not many of them would be what you would call out of line as far as weight is concerned. (and we all know that it is)..Hope this helps....Happy Trekking...sabre11004...



The first step that you take will be one of those that get you there... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
The first step that you take will be one of those that get you there 1!!!!!

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#88405 - 01/30/08 10:15 AM Re: Stove tests [Re: sabre11004]
dkramalc Offline
member

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 1070
Loc: California
Sabre, can you at least describe the basic type of stove you have that boils 4 cups in 4 minutes? From the http://zenstoves.net/Stoves.htm link:

1. Open Flame
2. Chimney/Updraft
3. Low Pressure SideBurner
4. Open Jet
5. Hybrid SideBurner Jet
6. Pressurized Jet

How much fuel does your stove use to do that? I've gotten that fast a boil, but with TWO cups of water, not four.
_________________________
dk

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#88406 - 01/30/08 10:38 AM Re: Stove tests [Re: dkramalc]
sabre11004 Offline
member

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 513
Loc: Tennessee



I have all of the above. Some of them are less efficient than others but I have some that really rock. I was working with one the other day and on this particular stove was able to just sit the pot right on top of the stove itself. Although this is not one of the more efficient models of the alcohol stove...I suppose that this particular model would be called a "side- burner" stove....I have them set up where on some the windscreen and the pot stand are one piece. Others I have it is two different things for the windscreen and the pot holder and/or stand. Some of the models that I have, have heat vents very much like you find on the old fashion Coleman canister stoves that more efficiently directs the flame to the bottom of the pot and I have gotten better boil times with these models. I would say that on an average of all the stoves that I have the average boil time would be around 3-5 minutes. That's faster than it takes us to put up our tent. We both carry one of these set-ups or the other so we are most of the time pretty prepared for cooking duties... Hope this helps....Happy Trekking...sabre11004...



The first step that you take will be of those that get you there... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
The first step that you take will be one of those that get you there 1!!!!!

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#88407 - 01/30/08 12:07 PM Re: Stove tests [Re: sabre11004]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3983
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Sabre
You are being challenged by the group to put up or shut up - no offense intended, <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> but we all have experimented with these and we have real gas stoves etc and you claim to get pressurized white gas performance from your stove. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />Prove it, we don't believe you. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Saying "oh I have a bunch of them and some really rock" is not the kind of complete description of stove and test that lends credability to your arguement. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Again - no offense intended, <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> just realise that this group is constantly assailed by people with claims that do not seem to meet the general consensus of reality. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I would love to believe you by the way. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I believe in santa and the easter bunny too, oh and the tooth fairy. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

As for altitude as a variable, the boiling point may be a tad lower, but the amount of oxygen for the stove is lowered as well. There is probably a net loss as you gain altitude - just surmising.

In most of the magazines with "normal stoves" one liter of 70 degree water boiled out of the wind to a rolling boil.

When the boiling point is reached is not subjective at all. It is boiling or not, but some of it may be hot enough to "boil" but untill the entire mass is "boiling" there will not be a "rolling boil" but when the entire mass is boiling the entire energy input at the bottom will be released at the top thus a "rolling boil". If you lift the lid to see if its boiling, it will take longer, but i you wait until the lid just lifts with steam, you hit the point within within ten seconds.

One problem is that the users of pop stoves do not boil liters of water, thus the standard needs change and as far as I know - no one has been able to establish universal guidelines for pop stove testing.
This is why the exact method of test must be described. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Thank you for reading this far.
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#88408 - 01/30/08 01:45 PM Re: Stove tests [Re: Jimshaw]
ringtail Offline
member

Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 2296
Loc: Colorado Rockies
Jim,

I would like to see the test standard 2 cups at 40 degrees. I find the performance of alcohol stoves is not as good when heating large amounts.

I could be flexible about the 40 degrees, but I think that is about the average refrigerator.

Hey, sabre. Please send two of your best stoves to Paddy Crow. He does excellent tests and then we will have third party verification of the boil times.

Jim, when I was a child I did believe in Santa, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairly. Then I got older and lost the faith. When I became a parent I found that I AM Santa, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy. Hard not to believe in yourself.

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#88409 - 01/30/08 02:07 PM Re: Stove tests [Re: Jimshaw]
Paddy_Crow Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan
Quote:
As for altitude as a variable, the boiling point may be a tad lower, but the amount of oxygen for the stove is lowered as well. There is probably a net loss as you gain altitude - just surmising.


I doubt that it would be as significant of a factor. With an open flame, fuel tends to burn just as fast at 5000 feet as at sea level. The amount of energy released is directly proportional to the amount of fuel burned so the rate of energy release is directly proportional to the burn rate.

There is an altitude where the air is so thin that alcohol won't burn, but there is also a point where the pressure is so low that water will boil spontaneously. Not sure which would be reached first.

Quote:
When the boiling point is reached is not subjective at all.


Actually, it is. The onset of boiling, referred to as nucleate boiling, is almost imperceptible to the naked eye. It takes a lot of heat to go from that point to the point where the bubbles are large enough to see. The subjective part comes in where the individual doing the testing decides that there are enough bubbles and they are large enough to call it a boil.

The best way to report the output of a heat device is in power conversion units (BTU per hour, Calories per second, watts, horsepower, etc.). It's relatively easy to do by measuring the weight of the water, starting temperature, ending temperature, and time.

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#88410 - 01/30/08 02:34 PM Re: Stove tests [Re: Jimshaw]
BarryP Offline
member

Registered: 03/04/04
Posts: 1574
Loc: Eastern Idaho
“As for altitude as a variable, the boiling point may be a tad lower, but the amount of oxygen for the stove is lowered as well. There is probably a net loss as you gain altitude - just surmising.”

I’ve always noticed I get better boil times in them there UT, CO, WY mountains than I do in the Midwest. So I would incline to think air pressure is more dominant a factor than oxygen, on the crust of this Mother Earth, for alcy stoves.

-Barry

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#88411 - 01/30/08 02:44 PM Re: Stove tests [Re: movingmountain]
hootyhoo Offline
member

Registered: 12/14/06
Posts: 686
Loc: Cyberspace
TRANGIA IN '08

Rank um, spank um. To me it does not matter which one works best in the lab. I found that by using the Trangia I got much better mileage -and this of course is due to the fact that I do not have to meter out the fuel, because I just snuff it, cool it and put the lid on. Being able to store fuel in the stove is the way to go and it cuts out a lot of the fiddle factor.
If you meter out too much fuel and cannot recover it then you have to burn it. If you meter out too little fuel you have to add more and re-light the stove. Honestly none of this makes any sense. Some folks say that after a while they know exactly how much fuel to put in their stove - baaaalony. All the external factors that play into burn times/boil times, such as air temperature, water temp, fuel temp, altitude, wind, ect.. change constantly and getting the perfect amount is only possible if you have too much to start with, put the stove out, and save the remainder.

My name is Trangia User and I approve this message!

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#88412 - 01/30/08 02:58 PM Re: Stove tests [Re: sabre11004]
Franco Offline
member

Registered: 04/05/04
Posts: 1010
Loc: Australia
Sabre
Around here a cup is 250 ml so 4 cups is 1 liter.
Just to make sure, I have just boiled about 900ml of water using one of my thin titanium pots on my stove top using the highest setting. It took over 4 minutes to get a roaring boil. My pot is 4.5" wide. If you can do that with alcohol not only you have the best times I have seen but you are exceeding the theoretical maximum efficiency of alcohol. Well done !

BTW, I do have several commercially sold stoves and made many versions of the supercat and Pepsi type my self. With 1 oz of Ethanol I get to boil 2 cups between 4.5 and 8 minutes depending on the set up. The faster the boil the sooner I run out of fuel. In the end most of my combinations give me 1.5 to 2 minutes of roaring boil. I am at 10 m above sea level. That makes your versions about twice as efficient as mine......

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#88413 - 01/30/08 06:47 PM Re: Stove tests [Re: Franco]
retrotramp Offline
member

Registered: 02/26/04
Posts: 103
Loc: Christchurch, New Zealand
Franco, you reflect my thoughts exactly. Either Sabre is confusing two cups with four, or his 'cup' is a lot smaller than a standard metric (or imperial) cup. It is not physically possible to boil 1 litre or 1 quart of 50F water in the sorts of times Sabre claims.

Paddy Crow brings a sense of science and reproducibility to the discussion "The best way to report the output of a heat device is in power conversion units (BTU per hour, Calories per second, watts, horsepower, etc.). It's relatively easy to do by measuring the weight of the water, starting temperature, ending temperature, and time."

However none of these things tell you how the stove will perform in the real world where wind, pot size, pot material and thickness, windscreen design, ability to simmer, ability to 'snuff and reuse' , stove weight, etc...come into play.

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#88414 - 01/30/08 07:33 PM Re: Stove tests [Re: retrotramp]
Paddy_Crow Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan
Engineering metrics are just that, but I can tell you that more often than not the more powerful engine will win the race.

There are ways to evaluate performance with various "real world" noise factors, but it is probably more complex than the average DIY'er is capable of dissecting. At least I wouldn't consider those with an understanding of factorial testing and setting up an orthogonal array to be average!

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#88415 - 01/30/08 08:04 PM Re: Stove tests [Re: retrotramp]
Paddy_Crow Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan
Here are a few metrics:
- A liter of fresh water is about 2.2 lbs. A quart is 2.1 lbs.
- Going from 50F to 212F is a 162F increase, which requires 357 BTU.
- For argument's sake, let's say the stove is 50% efficient (in reality, it's probably less), so 714 BTU worth of fuel must be burned.
- To do this in 3 minutes, burner output would be 14,280 BTU per hour.
- Ethanol is rated about 600 BTU per ounce, so it would take about 1.2 ounces of fuel.

For comparison sake, the burners on my gas range are rated at 13,500 BTU per hour and 9,000 BTU per hour.

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#88416 - 01/31/08 10:54 AM Re: Stove tests [Re: Paddy_Crow]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
I agree with Paddy. If you convert to BTU, Watts, etc, then it is very easy to account for all the other variables that play in boiling water.

I want to see some of sabre's stoves. I am talking pictures and diagrams.
_________________________
I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

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#88417 - 01/31/08 11:01 AM Re: Stove tests [Re: finallyME]
sabre11004 Offline
member

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 513
Loc: Tennessee


Hey, guys if it is any compensation I was messing with a new stove last night. That thing took 10 friggin' minutes to boil water (3 cups) to a roll !!!!! Don't think this one will make into the back country just yet. To say the least, it is a work in progress...Happy Trekking...sabre11004

P.S. I wished that I could manage to get pics on here because there would be a lot of them...


The first step that you take will be of those that get you there !!!!!!! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
The first step that you take will be one of those that get you there 1!!!!!

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