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#189132 - 02/16/15 11:20 PM Re: Performance, Payload, Price [Re: Bill67]
hikerduane Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/03
Posts: 2124
Loc: Meadow Valley, CA
I'm 61 now, carry a UL pack, base weight close to 8 lbs., using quite a bit of cuben fiber gear and down. Week long trips, total pack weight will be around 22-24 lbs. depending on how much water I carry or a bear can. I have no bills, so I've been able to get quite a bit of newer gear, up to a point. I'm still clothing dumb. I tried a bivy and shaped tarp on my vacation last summer, did not care for the issue of trying to squirm into the bivy in the evenings, nor the wind blowing rain just inside the end of the tarp if due to slope, pointing the high end into the wind, sold them both, so back to a 19oz. tent (ZPacks Solplex). I had a 12 oz. (ZPacks Hexamid) two years ago but wanted a little more wind-thru-the-shelter worthiness, still don't have much space, but protected well from above and below now. I have a 3oz solo bug net from STS that I've used a few times, works nicely for when the weather is nice and no other shelter is needed, saving weight there. Unfortunately out West here, due to fire conditions about the time I go on vacation, I've been unable to utilize a alcohol stove setup for the last two summers and have had to bring the next best thing, a isobutane stove and small canister or one of my old classics, a MSR GK or whatever.
Duane

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#189133 - 02/16/15 11:53 PM Re: Performance, Payload, Price [Re: hikerduane]
Bill67 Offline
newbie

Registered: 02/13/15
Posts: 9
Loc: Arizona, USA
Duane, that Cuben fiber gear looks amazingly light but sure is pricey. I'm retired and have some bills, more now than when I retired at first, so gear selection is based on cost as well as weight savings. It can add up in a hurry when only trying to lose 5 or 6 pounds of total weight.

I find one of my issues is feeling like I can carry the same weight I did 30 years ago and tend to take a few items that are unnecessary. Right now that is one of my main areas of attention, leaving things out that are redundant or frivolous.

There are certain items that I like to carry and some I would like to use more often if I could find a better way to carry them. I like my MSR Whisperlte and it is heavier than my Snow Peak canister stove. If I could find the perfect titanium pot to stuff the Whisperlite into I wouldn't mind taking it more often. Presently the cooking pot adds too much to the stove. I would be forced in colder weather perhaps but so far prefer the lighter Snow Peak. I am a bit of a stove lover and have few other choices but the weight keeps me from taking them very far these days.

I am shooting for 25 pounds for a 2-3 day trip and should be able to accomplish that. I prefer wool to synthetics but I own some of each and could easily lighten up on the clothing. I have a light down jacket that I mainly carry for use as a pillow but doubles as an emergency layer of warmth.

I think I am going for a two pound tent and leaving the 3 to 4 pounder at home and I need to take a lighter sleeping bag. I often take my old TNF Cat's Meow, great bag but heavy and bulky by today's standards. I could easily save half of it's weight by taking a down bag. I have a Marmot 30 degree that weighs under 2 pounds. I just need to pack it instead of the TNF.

I like the Zpack gear but over my limits cost wise, maybe someday :-)


Edited by Bill67 (02/16/15 11:55 PM)

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#189135 - 02/17/15 07:14 AM Re: Performance, Payload, Price [Re: aimless]
Glenn Roberts Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 2208
Loc: Southwest Ohio
I'll probably never make it into the ranks of true ultralight, either. I've gotten pretty light (17 pounds, including food and water, for a pleasant summer weekend in Ohio.)

The catch to ultralight, for me, is that "pleasant summer weekend" stuff. My two pound tent is all mesh, which is great on a clear August night - the fly doesn't need to be on, and it's wonderful. My little canister stove chugs away and boils the water quickly in my titanium pot. The sleeping quilt is plenty, and much of the time arms and legs stick out. The ventilated back of my two and a half pound pack feels wonderful. And my spare clothes consist of a pair of socks.

But, if any of that changes, ultralight starts losing its shine. Put the fly on that all-mesh tent, and you start getting condensation, though it does a pretty good job of scooping up every stray breeze. That's great in August, not so much in November. And, if it's raining, I can't pitch the tent fly-first, so the inner gets pretty damp before I'm done. The canister stove has to be shielded from those breezes. And, as I start adding clothing, my tiny little pack runs out of space, and its minimal suspension gets overwhelmed.

I also have a free-standing tent and an integrated stove-pot system that does a great job of resisting wind, and a full-on sleeping bag. They handle any three-season problems I can throw at them. That weekend load grows to 20 pounds, but there's a lot of safety margin gains, and some gains in comfort, too. And it's starting to be my preferred gear set.

I've always been 2 - 5 pounds lighter than my hiking buddies, but it's from leaving out stuff (they carry a pillow, I inflate my water bladder; they want a pot set, plate, cup, fork, and spoon; I carry a spoon and eat and drink from my pot. That kind of thing.

Go light, but don't go nuts.

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#189137 - 02/17/15 08:55 AM Re: Performance, Payload, Price [Re: Bill67]
hikerduane Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/03
Posts: 2124
Loc: Meadow Valley, CA
Bill, I collect stoves, way over a hundred now, around 2 dozen MSR stoves, back to the model 9 with a few more modern models missing that don't do much for me.
Duane

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#189145 - 02/17/15 01:35 PM Re: Performance, Payload, Price [Re: Bill67]
OregonMouse Offline
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
Quote:
I think safety and comfort are often sacrificed to save weight.


Not with sensible and highly experienced people! Unfortunately, not all people are sensible, and a lot of people are less experienced than they think they are. Here is a good article by Andrew Skurka about the difference between "light" and "stupid light." This article has caused a lot of vehement discussion in ultralight circles.

On the other hand, here's a super ultra-light gear list, with a base weight of 5.8 lbs. I could live with this gear for a 2-3 day trip of summer hiking in the mountains of the southwestern US. I would make the following changes for me: 20*F sleeping bag (+5 oz.), a decent headlamp (+3 oz.), long-handled spoon (+0.3 oz.) (I rehydrate my food in and eat out of freezer bags), my beloved Exped sleeping pad (+ 12 oz.), extra pair of hiking socks (+3 oz.), slightly heavier base layer (+5 oz.), map and compass (+4 oz.) That's basically 1.8 lbs. more. and it would cover any emergency situations that could happen in summer in the Southwest mountains. Add stuff I include in my base weight, like camera, fishing gear, monocular, a Personal Locator Beacon (I hike alone, and having it keeps my family off my back for a psychological weight saving), and this list becomes pretty close to what I have.

BTW, a small knife works just fine for making frizz sticks, which I prefer to trying to split wood with a knife (I have scars from the latter!).


Edited by OregonMouse (02/17/15 04:14 PM)
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

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#189148 - 02/17/15 02:47 PM Re: Performance, Payload, Price [Re: Bill67]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2865
Loc: California
I agree that UL has less safety margin but you also need to look at what level of safety margin is needed. Although thru-hikers are amazing, their "conditions" are different than mine. A thru-hiker is seldom alone, even if they solo. They keep bumping into each other. I have read of many cases where an UL thru-hiker starts getting hypothermia, and another hiker bumps into them and assists them. They cover the miles, so can camp "low", hike "high" not needing high altitude gear. They often come back to town or civilization every 3-4 days or so.

I hike alone, sometimes not seeing a single person for a week. I am mostly off trails. Nobody is going to bump into me and save my sorry behind. I have to be TOTALLY self sufficient. I camp "high" because that is why I am in the mountains! I do not hike 25 miles a day because I simply do not want to!

We can learn a lot from thru-hikers and I do like how the UL trend is making equipment manufacturers think on how to reduce weight in gear and develop new materials.

One way to save weight that has yet to be mentioned, is going in a group. Sharing group gear really helps. One first aid kit, one cook set, one tent, one GPS or PLB if you carry that stuff, one mulit-tool type knife, share fishing gear.

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#189152 - 02/17/15 04:10 PM Re: Performance, Payload, Price [Re: Bill67]
OregonMouse Offline
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
I Just ran into another pertinent article on the safety issue, published today, in one of my favorite blogs, and hasten to share it!

Nine Essential Ultralight Backpacking Skills.

As pointed out by Andrew Skurka in the comments, these skills are needed not just for "ultralight" hikers but for every hiker!

Re the "Super-Ultralite" gear list I linked to above--it doesn't show prices, but if you look up a few, you'll go into real sticker shock, perhaps requiring CPR!


Edited by OregonMouse (02/17/15 04:21 PM)
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

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#189165 - 02/18/15 11:31 AM Re: Performance, Payload, Price [Re: OregonMouse]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
OM, your "Nine Essential Ultralight Backpacking Skills. " link is a good article. I was interested to see how they framed that and I agree, every backpacker should have those skills. What's missing from the conversation there, and in general, is the how to go about learning it part. Those that stick out most to me are:

"Weather and Environmental Awareness"

"On-Trail and Off-Trail Navigation"

It's good advice to offer that one has these skills but there's not a lot of detailed info out there on good ways to safely acquire them. Googling "learn how to hike off trail" doesn't provide much. The number one link goes to a "Backpacker.com" article titled "Master Class: Off-Trail Hiking", but it doesn't even touch on what I'd consider to be some very key factors, one of which is something both you and I have pointed out more than once: "Turn around and look at where you've come from often so you know what to look for on the way back".

In general, I think most backpackers don't really even think much about how to acquire those skills or even try to. They avoid the first by convincing themselves they're prepared for whatever comes and the second by never venturing off trail.

In the Ozarks, if you're paying attention, you can feel a rain shower coming in the way the wind changes. The wind gets sucked towards the shower when it's heading your way and that will give you a five or ten minute heads up to prepare. The stronger the wind, the faster it's coming. If you listen, you'll hear it coming a minute or two before it gets to you.

If you can't travel off trail in the Ozarks with nothing but a topo map you really need to practice your skills. The terrain is so well defined here that you really shouldn't even need a map or compass to find your way back. Most anyplace with hills or mountains is like that.

The thing is, it's not easy to write about how to acquire these skills and making a video isn't much better. I think they're best learned in person while doing it with someone's who's competent to teach them, and then practicing what you've learned.

_________________________
--

"You want to go where?"



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#189171 - 02/18/15 12:34 PM Re: Performance, Payload, Price [Re: billstephenson]
4evrplan Offline
member

Registered: 01/16/13
Posts: 913
Loc: Nacogdoches, TX, USA
I've probably looked up articles on navigation half a dozen times, with the intent of working through them. Even though it seems like a really interesting topic, I've never made it through even one of those written articles. I'm thinking that learning it in real life (RL) with a coach is the way to go.
_________________________
The journey is more important than the destination.

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#189176 - 02/18/15 03:00 PM Re: Performance, Payload, Price [Re: 4evrplan]
Bill67 Offline
newbie

Registered: 02/13/15
Posts: 9
Loc: Arizona, USA
One of the best books on navigation is "Be Expert with Map and Compass" by Bjorn Kjellstrom. It has a map and baseplate protractor to work with and has a workbook that you work through.

It does teach the basics of topographical maps and a baseplate compass. I enjoy the book and try to work through it every 5 years or so as a refresher.

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#189177 - 02/18/15 03:05 PM Re: Performance, Payload, Price [Re: Bill67]
4evrplan Offline
member

Registered: 01/16/13
Posts: 913
Loc: Nacogdoches, TX, USA
It's not that I can't understand the material. It's just that it's really dry to learn an outdoor skill like this from a book or article. I find myself dozing off trying to read them. That's why I think hands on training with an instructor would be better.
_________________________
The journey is more important than the destination.

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#189178 - 02/18/15 04:37 PM Re: Performance, Payload, Price [Re: 4evrplan]
Bill67 Offline
newbie

Registered: 02/13/15
Posts: 9
Loc: Arizona, USA
That's what I always liked about the Be Expert with Map and Compass, it is hands on using the map and the protractor or you can use a baseplate compass like a Suunto. There is some reading, of course but mostly it gets applied to the problems in the workbook.

As far as finding a teacher, there are some out there but from my experience few have more than rudimentary skills themselves. Unless you find an old Special Forces trained person, the land navigation training in the SFQC is very well taught. although more military related in some regards.

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#189187 - 02/18/15 09:14 PM Re: Performance, Payload, Price [Re: 4evrplan]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Originally Posted By 4evrplan
It's not that I can't understand the material. It's just that it's really dry to learn an outdoor skill like this from a book or article. I find myself dozing off trying to read them. That's why I think hands on training with an instructor would be better.


They are pretty dry and boring, and it's math, and geometry. Ugh. frown

But, in real life there's another way... I call it "Remembering" grin

The old adage "You seen one tree you seen them all" is true for a lot of people, and most of them will get lost in a forest pretty fast. In the old days an Ozarker might give directions something like, "Follow this road. After it crosses the creek the Yocum's place is in third hollow on the left."

If you were an Ozarker that's everything you needed to know and all you had to remember. The actual distance didn't really didn't matter much, nor did the twists and turns the road and hollows might take. That's still pretty much how I bushwhack here.

To be able to do this you have to pay attention, but you can learn it on a trail just as easy as bushwhacking. Consider, on a trail here you might walk by a dozen hollows on one side of a creek or ridge and never even think about them because you don't really have to. If you had paid attention, and counted them as you went, you could pull out a topo map showing that trail and pinpoint your location on it without a compass or a GPS. The same is true if you're bushwhacking, though it takes a little faith to believe it at first.

In the West, the topography is bigger, but the same thing applies. If you apply it on both the large and small scale, you can learn to bushwhack like Wondering_Daisy and wander around for months and always know where you are to a pretty fine point.

If you've got a topo map and a compass and some mountains, learning how to triangulate your position is easy, and that's a skill worth practicing while your out backpacking, and I think everyone should now and then. I pretty much eyeball it now, but that works pretty good too with practice.

Getting a GPS helped me a lot because it gave me confirmation that I knew where I was, and with that I learned I alway did know. When I first got one I carried it with me and watched it while I hiked. It didn't take long for me to realize I didn't like that. Now I use them to record a track more than anything, and to set waypoints for spots that are interesting. I like my printed topo maps a lot more, and use them with the GPS as a cross reference, if I use it.

Navigation in large flatlands and at sea is entirely different. I've studied it a bit, but never practiced it. I've always been fixated on exploring rivers, creeks, and mountains. But I would love to get a sextant and fiddle with it enough to locate myself (even somewhat) with it. I'm afraid all I'd prove though is that those who use them are a lot better at math than I and that I don't have the tenacity to learn it.


_________________________
--

"You want to go where?"



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#189189 - 02/18/15 09:57 PM Re: Performance, Payload, Price [Re: billstephenson]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2865
Loc: California
Good thing I am good at reading maps! If I had to depend on remembering, I would never get out. My short term memory gets worse every year I get older.

You really do not need a lot of math to use a map and compass. You can do it graphically. Each map has a symbol that shows an arrow for north and another arrow for the magnetic declination. Just line up your map using those arrows. Same with setting your compass. The biggest thing is to look at a feature on the map and then find it on the ground. This is a matter of practice. Of course, you need to be with someone who knows how to read maps so they can tell you if you are right or wrong. And the rule of "v"'s. Ridges contours point downhill; valley contours point uphill. The closer the contour lines, the steeper the terrain. You can become a good map reader without knowing much about math. It is like I can be a good driver without knowing exactly how my car works under the hood. I never look under the hood!


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#189204 - 02/19/15 10:26 AM Re: Performance, Payload, Price [Re: wandering_daisy]
4evrplan Offline
member

Registered: 01/16/13
Posts: 913
Loc: Nacogdoches, TX, USA
For what it's worth, WD, I am in awe of your skill, but I know it was hard won.
_________________________
The journey is more important than the destination.

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#189220 - 02/19/15 01:07 PM Re: Performance, Payload, Price [Re: billstephenson]
JPete Offline
member

Registered: 05/28/09
Posts: 304
Loc: Eastern Ontario
re: the discussion on ultralite.

I discovered here, some time ago, that I am one of the "ultralighters" and thought I'd offer a few thoughts.

I've always been very light (well almost always), originally because I didn't have very much and didn't have the money for more. But what I had was heavy for what it did.

A few years ago (well, ten or twelve to be more exact) it became obvious that I had to lighten up or quit backpacking, and by that time, I had a few bucks extra, so I replaced the heavy-for-their-jobs equipment, one item at a time. My best help in this was Mountain Laurel Designs and Western Mountaineering.

But a key factor was experience. I never had a tent, wasn't used to using one, so I didn't feel the need to buy one. Same with a number of other things. Never had many extra clothes, so never got used to having them (like others, I carry extra socks and undies). The list could go on.

But it also helps that I camp in order to hike, so don't spend much time in camp.

But the most critical factor is that I learned by experience that one need not be dependent on fancy equipment. Take it very slow, and be aware of what you are doing, and you can learn to be safe and comfortable without many pounds of gear. Yes it does require experience and paying thoughtful attention as you gain it. I would not send a beginner into the woods for ten days with my pack.

Slightly off topic, but weather is also a factor. One needs a fairly good idea of what to expect and to pack accordingly. Since I grew up in the Ozarks, there was real nostalgia for me in billstephenson's description of the signs of changing weather and navigation there. I remember that quite clearly once mentioned, but would not have been able to call it back on my own. Thanks Bill.

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#189231 - 02/19/15 03:32 PM Re: Performance, Payload, Price [Re: wandering_daisy]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Quote:
The biggest thing is to look at a feature on the map and then find it on the ground.


Absolutely. If you've got a clear view across a valley or hollow to the ridge on the other side you should be able to locate a point on that ridge by it's shape represented on a topo map. That's always be easy for me, but I've seen some people struggle with it.

Personally, I struggle with the way Google shades their 3D representations of topography on their maps. I see it in reverse. The peaks look like valleys to me.

Quote:
And the rule of "v"'s.

I've never heard or even really thought about that before. I like that. I'll remember that when showing others where we're at on a map.

You know, Lewis and Clark made maps as they went and kept daily journals of their travels. When I'm talking about "remembering" I'm thinking more about where you take shorter hikes to visit a spot not far from where you've set up camp.

For example, last week I took 3 people with me on a short bushwhack down a creek. When we reached a fork where another creek joined the one we were on I pointed out that a trail crossed there that led back to where we'd all parked going one way, and back to my camp going the other. Then we continued on.

On the way back everyone with me wanted to take the wrong fork back to where I was camped, and they were all convinced I was leading them the wrong way when I insisted they follow me. It wasn't until they saw my bright orange tent they were convinced otherwise.

The point is, between the three of them they didn't recognize a single thing on the way back. Not a tree, or any rock formations, not even the fork in the creek that I'd stopped them at and pointed out to them, nothing.

All I needed to recall going back is that a we came down on the right side of the 1st fork in the creek and right above the next fork on the right was where I was camped.

If you practice stopping and making a point to look around and find something unique you will recall it. I've learned to make this a habit by kicking myself when I forget to do it. I still forget sometimes though. It's pretty easy to just walk and let the scenery pass by.

_________________________
--

"You want to go where?"



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#189234 - 02/19/15 03:46 PM Re: Performance, Payload, Price [Re: billstephenson]
Rick_D Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 2939
Loc: NorCal
I'm mostly a seasonal hiker and find it takes days each new year for my eyes to become "forest conditioned" (lacking a better term). At some point I find nature's chaos and clutter becomes somehow ordered and again I feel at home. Until that happens I'm kind of a menace.

When hiking with my kid we take off-trail breaks and I have her lead me back to the trail. It's no grand scheme but I always want her thinking about where she is, has just been and is heading. Like "drownproofing" via swimming lessons, "lostproofing" is what we hope we can provide for our kids/students.

Cheers,
_________________________
--Rick

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#190655 - 05/24/15 05:33 AM Re: Performance, Payload, Price [Re: Bill_in_TR]
Honas Offline
member

Registered: 05/24/15
Posts: 26
A base weight of 15 pounds sounds pretty good to me! I would just go with it!

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#190987 - 06/17/15 11:42 PM Re: Performance, Payload, Price [Re: Bill_in_TR]
bob1900 Offline
member

Registered: 06/16/15
Posts: 19
advice from others says REI is a good choice

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