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#189952 - 04/01/15 04:14 PM Compass for Red Zebralight Headlamp / Torch ?
adamlogan Offline
newbie

Registered: 03/03/15
Posts: 10
Been doing some looking around online at compasses. Been looking at button compasses, watch compasses and baseplate compasses.

I was looking at Suunto M3G, but saw a comment that said it's not a good compass if you're using a red headlamp for night vision and I just bought a Zebra Light that is red and only red… Because the torch led is red and not using a filter it's supposed to be much brighter than the typical headlamp with tiny red leds or super led bulbs w/ red filter.

I'm aware that navigating at night is discouraged but I'd like to have the ability if I need to do that. Wondering what compass would work well with a red headlamp.

Thinking of weight, I have looked for solar powered keychain leds that cycle through RGB. Unless I can leave it on and wear it around my neck or something I don't see myself using it to read or navigate. I currently own a Petzl e+lite and a Black Diamond Revolt. Was thinking of using the Zebralight for headlamp and carrying the petzl e+lite as a backup. The black diamond revolt I bought mostly for around the house with possible inklings of being able to recharge it if I were to go on a long trip via solar panel but eh, I imagine the solar panels are more trouble than I want to deal with.

I was wondering how useful an orienteering compass would be for navigating, seems useful in that it doesn't have scales (maps have many different scales right?) Seems nicely compact. I found one that has black bezel and white numbers, I would imagine this would be easier to see than black numbers on white background. Moscow Sport Model 3. Am I delusional or what? Another orienteering model:Suunto Arrow 6

Just saw this simple watch compass from Navelite but am concerned that there's no way to adjust declination, and I imagine its not a global compass. Not so great for working with a map but for making interim corrections maybe?

Thoughts, suggestions, share your experiences?


Edited by adamlogan (04/04/15 02:38 AM)
Edit Reason: clarification

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#189954 - 04/01/15 06:12 PM Re: Compass for Red Zebralight Headlamp / Torch ? [Re: adamlogan]
Glenn Roberts Online   content
Moderator

Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 2208
Loc: Southwest Ohio
Neat! Someone who is as an.., er, "discerning" about his gear as I am. smile

Actually, as I read the first couple of paragraphs, my mind went to the Petzl e+Lite as a backup, since night navigation was a "just in case" mode rather than normal operating mode. I think that's a good idea - it also means you have a light to use when you have to change batteries in your other light (ever notice how batteries only burn out in the dark?)


Edited by Glenn Roberts (04/01/15 06:42 PM)
Edit Reason: correct typos

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#189978 - 04/03/15 03:06 PM Re: Compass for Red Zebralight Headlamp / Torch ? [Re: adamlogan]
Gershon Offline
member

Registered: 07/08/11
Posts: 1110
Loc: Colorado
You won't be able to see any red markings with red lighting.

This Commenga compass glows in the dark and can be used without a light. If you want one that will glow longer, pay extra for the tritium version.

By the way, you don't need to adjust a compass for declination if you grid the map for the declination. There are instructions here for doing this. Once you do this, you can use magnetic headings.

I frequently hike at night with a white headlamp. It doesn't seem to affect my night vision much. The only time it would is if you used it to look at map without holding it at an angle so the light doesn't reflect back into your eyes.

It takes more lumens of light to see with a red light, so the effect on the night vision is the same. The red light myth along with the eating carrots myth was spread during WW II to explain why British pilots could "see" at night with their radar.

When I was a pilot in the Air Force, most people used the white light to see in the cockpit. Almost all of the cockpit lighting was white.

Added:

It takes many miles of practice to become proficient with a compass. It took me about 1,000 miles to get my error down to about 50 feet per mile with compass only navigation. Becoming proficient at night is not more difficult except for the record keeping along the way.

If you are serious about compass navigation I suggest making some ranger beads. There are many good YouTube videos about how to do this. In survival school, we navigated at night without a light or a map. It was all bushwhacking and compass only navigation.


Edited by Gershon (04/03/15 03:36 PM)
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#189983 - 04/04/15 07:40 AM Re: Compass for Red Zebralight Headlamp / Torch ? [Re: adamlogan]
adamlogan Offline
newbie

Registered: 03/03/15
Posts: 10
@Glenn Roberts: Yeah that's why I'm hanging onto the petzl. I wish it was rechargeable though, button cell batteries are expensive and I really dislike the waste of disposables. The Revolt is nice but too big and bulky to carry on my person on a daily basis. The Zebralight seems to nail it. Just got it today and I am really liking it so far, tested it out in my pantry and was able to read a book with it and tinkered around with the programming, its pretty slick. The only thing is I'm going to have to remember to click and hold, otherwise a single click will turn on the lamp at maximum brightness.

@Gershon
This is like a santa isn't real episode all over again, you're breaking my heart ha ha. Does it still stand that red/green/yellow tend not to spook certain animals due to their inability to see certain wavelengths? This is something I'd like more detailed info on. Hmm. Did some reading up on night vision, low red seems to be all right although I read that if you can see the color red it's probably too bright, seems worthless to me. Info seems pretty scattered or not easy to find about animals and night vision in general.

I'm very graphic design savvy, so I'd be able to do that hack without too much effort. It would work fine if willing to put in the work ahead of time, PIA if you lose your map or have to use or compare with someone else's map in the field. Interesting use of excel. I subscribe to alltrails.com and they provide access maps similar to what you were showing me. As a proof of concept I followed what you did, but I used indesign to get at the paths I needed and stretched the grid lines to fit the border without losing alignment. Cool. Gotta be careful about rotation though, it'd be pretty easy to mess that up depending on what's selected and where the center axis is located.

Anyways I'll test some compasses out soon and try out my Zebralight on some maps and see if it's usable.


Edited by adamlogan (04/04/15 02:56 PM)
Edit Reason: typo

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#189985 - 04/04/15 10:29 AM Re: Compass for Red Zebralight Headlamp / Torch ? [Re: adamlogan]
Gershon Offline
member

Registered: 07/08/11
Posts: 1110
Loc: Colorado
Adamlogan,

If you have a borrowed map, you can draw magnetic north lines that generally point to Chicago. Use the diagram on the map to confirm the direction, but use the compass to draw the magnetic north line. Then lay the base plate of the compass on the mag north line and rotate the map so the north arrow is on north. Then you can read all mag headings off the map.

My light's effect on animals is interesting. Cats don't mind staring right into the white light. Most other animals are scared off by the red light from my camera even if a hundred feet away.

If I want to go all out and prepare a map, I'll get a mag heading on the trail about every .05 miles. I'll make a table of these headings.

Google "thumbing a map" for a way to keep oriented on a trail.

If you are going to prepare a map beforehand, I suggest buying a circular protractor. It can be done with a compass, but you have to be careful of any metal parts in tables, or even in your pen or pencil.

To give you an idea of how accurate a compass is in the proper hands, I often walk a mile out into the prairie (walking distance, not straight line) and hide an Altoid can with $10 in it. A week or two later, I'll go back by a different route and find the $10. I've never missed yet. After a mile of walking, I'm always within 50 feet of the can. Then I set up a search pattern to find it.

The most important bearings are in the first few hundred feet from the trailhead. I've avoided taking off on the wrong trail a few times by checking these. Intersections are also important.

I use an inexpensive headlamp I got at Batteries Plus. I probably have at least a 1,000 miles of night hiking with it as I night hike almost every morning on the bicycle trails. It gives about 17 hours of light on three AAA rechargeable batteries. Too many lumens is not good as they are not necessary and they use up the batteries too fast. My backup for backpacking is a small solar powered light I got for $7.00 at an airport.


Edited by Gershon (04/04/15 06:41 PM)
Edit Reason: Added: By a different route
_________________________
http://48statehike.blogspot.com/

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#190005 - 04/04/15 06:38 PM Re: Compass for Red Zebralight Headlamp / Torch ? [Re: Gershon]
Gershon Offline
member

Registered: 07/08/11
Posts: 1110
Loc: Colorado
Adam,

If you are careful, you can be accurate using an inexpensive Brunton compass like this one. Mine was under $10 at Sport Authority. The needle settles quickly which is important for navigation. The only problem is the needle is red which means you won't be able to see it under red light.

I wouldn't recommend spending a lot of money on a compass until you are proficient in using one. If you are going to navigate at night, just get an inexpensive headlamp with white light. Another advantage to white light is it is easier to see hazards on the trail.

Be careful if you are attempting difficult navigation day or night. If you don't have TOTAL confidence in your navigation skills, it's easy to get lost if you are off trails. If you are seriously interested in learning precise compass navigation as a hobby, I can give you a learning path that isn't in any books I've found. Most of it can be done on streets around home or in parks. Much of it can even be done in large parking lots.

For precise navigation, I use a method that I've never seen in a book. It involves using a simple table and simple trig. It's an improvement on information you can find in this book.

I've never seen anyone using a compass on the trail, but I've also seen a lot of people looking at maps and wondering exactly where they are. Nobody was seriously lost though.

_________________________
http://48statehike.blogspot.com/

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#190096 - 04/08/15 04:48 PM Re: Compass for Red Zebralight Headlamp / Torch ? [Re: Gershon]
adamlogan Offline
newbie

Registered: 03/03/15
Posts: 10
I would love a tutorial on your method of navigating via compass. I think I will go ahead and pickup that Brunton compass, looks like an incredible value and I like how minimal it is.

It seems virtually all compasses use red for the parallel lines for orienting with latitude and for the N needle. I imagine map coloring would be hard to distinguish using a red lamp too.

So far I'm really loving the red zebralight, the range of light it can give off is amazing and the spread is perfectly even as far as I can see. I do feel that my eyes are more relaxed with dim red light versus dim white light but I need to take it on a trip outdoors to get a real feel for it.

As much as I like the zebralight it seems like the revolt would be more practical for long distance trips.

My main concern with a zebralight would be recharging. Sanyo Eneloop batteries look good for shorter trips, but for longer trips it seems to be more of a challenge. I was looking at USB rechargeable AA battaries but it seems they're an emerging product not stable as of yet. Not an immediate concern though, it'll be awhile before I spend that much time on the trail before I run into that problem. Just thinking smile. I should read up on what approaches thru-hikers took towards various topics like these.

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#190098 - 04/08/15 05:03 PM Re: Compass for Red Zebralight Headlamp / Torch ? [Re: adamlogan]
Gershon Offline
member

Registered: 07/08/11
Posts: 1110
Loc: Colorado
Adam,

If you would like me to start a compass course for you, please start another thread.

Gershon
_________________________
http://48statehike.blogspot.com/

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#190119 - 04/09/15 05:32 PM Re: Compass for Red Zebralight Headlamp / Torch ? [Re: adamlogan]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
When I was in the military, we had to make sure and use "red light readable" maps. They were military maps without all the red lines. We were taught to read a map at night while we huddled under a poncho and only used a red light. Of course, the lensatic compass didn't have red on it either.
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I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

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#190552 - 05/15/15 05:29 PM Re: Compass for Red Zebralight Headlamp / Torch ? [Re: Gershon]
adamlogan Offline
newbie

Registered: 03/03/15
Posts: 10
I'm on the road at the moment, have been comparing the black diamon revolt and the zebra red lamp. I was following the Aztec Butte trail in Canyon Lands National park Utah. I found that I did retain night vision better with the zebra red lamp, and it does get brighter and casts a more even light compared to the twin red leds on the revolt, but also found that I could not see the cairns - and they were never that far, 100 yards or so on average - without using the white spotlight of the black diamond, so I was unable to rely solely on the zebra red lamp which is disappointing for me. On a longer hike where trail finding would not be practical with the zebra, and possibly plausible with the revolt. Of course I'm just a newb doing trial and error and learning.

One fun thing I got to do with my lamp yesterday, I helped out a photographer who was trying to take a night photograph of Balanced Rock in Arches National Park, he had a petzl headlamp and it wasn't strong enough to paint light onto the boulder for a long exposure. So I handed him my revolt and he was able to get a decent picture. I'm impressed as I know the Revolt is not as strong as the storm, but for this scenario it was strong enough, the boulder was sitting 55 feet up off the base.

@finallyme
I don't think any of the consumer compasses would work well with red lamp, and as for maps, I COULD scan them and do color correction and reprint them but that is a great deal of work for a niche want (not really a necessity, I'm not doing covert missions). Navigating at night is painful enough on its own although it is something I'd like to know how to do if the need arises or for special occasions. As far as I know getting the setup needed to do night navigation as a consumer is difficult. I wonder if any gps units have a night mode. Hmm.

@Gershon, I created a new thread for ya, hope you reply soon with your content as people will probably be annoyed with lack of content out of the gate.


Edited by adamlogan (05/15/15 05:43 PM)

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