So as time goes on I'm trying to get more into backpacking into Wilderness areas. Last summer I went with some friends into the Bitterroot Selway Wilderness. It was fun but we experienced difficulties on our trip mainly due to lack of equipment or the wrong gear.

My friend that came with us had never went backpacking in an actual Wilderness Area and he came way under-equipped with cheap tennis shoes (he got injured because of that) and lack of smart backpacking gear. I have backpacked into wilderness areas before and my friend hadn't. I wore decent foot gear so I wasn't as bad off as he was. We went on a 10 mile hike with moderately steep parts and we only could stay 2 nights meaning we had 20 miles of hiking within about 3 days.

Ok so now next summer is coming around again and I'm trying to prepare for backpacking. I'm still highly confused about gear/equipment in terms of what I have, what I need, what I should have, and what I shouldn't have. I'm having issues filling up my new Backpack with stuff that I find essential perhaps wrongfully.

It seems unfortunately that if I am to be honest about the situation, I'm still very much an amateur when it comes to Wilderness Backpacking. This summer we are looking to backpack again with a few of the destinations being 10 miles or so.

I have a degrees of questions that I'll ask about gear/equipment as they come up and I'd like your opinion to what you use and or if I'm doing something wrong for long distance Wilderness backpacking.


So starting with that I just bought on sale a brand new latest model Gregory Baltoro 75 backpack. I just had a chance to test it yesterday by going on a decent 5 mile hike with about 25-30 pounds of gear. I was extremely impressed with how the pack feels and I could definitely use this pack comfortably. As far as shoes go I have a pair of Salomon Men's Quest 4D 2 GTX Hiking Boots. They are also incredible because they seem durable, comfortable, and they keep you feet from hurting after walking long distances.

So there are the first two pieces of gear which I feel are decent.
BOOTS AND BACKPACK
-Gregory Baltoro 75 Pack
-Salomon Men's Quest 4D 2 GTX Hiking Boots

Now here is where the problems really start to get to me.. We used a tent last year backpacking. We loved the tent but it seems somewhat bulky. I wouldn't even say it's especially heavy; because it's 5-6 pounds which I find acceptable for a 2 person tent that is fully insulated and waterproof (which I want). We got stuck in a horrid rainstorm in the Wilderness last summer and we were perfectly dry in this tent. The tent is
TENT
-Mountain Hardwear Drifter 3 DP tent.

It seems a big bulky though so maybe taking it out of its compression sack will help that?

The part that I'm really having trouble with is the sleeping bag. I have a
SLEEPING BAG
-Ledge Sports River +0 F Degree XL Oversize Mummy Sleeping Bag

It kept me very warm last summer and seems like a really good sleeping bag. It weighs about 5 pounds but takes up a ton of room in its compression sack. I'm thinking maybe taking it out of the compression sack would take up less room but it still seems somewhat huge to me. The other options is I could carry it in a hand while going up the trail which is annoying but doable.

For water filtration I have a
FILTER
-General Ecology, First Need XLE Elite Water Purifier

I was highly impressed with this product last summer as it's simply amazing. You can attach a nalgene bottle and pump water directly into that is purified. My only complaint about it is it's a little bulky and slightly heavy but nothing terrible. An alternative I was considering the sawyer mini filter.

Lastly for for major items I have an REI Med kit and an REI Sleeping pad. Both items are awesome, however they seem a tad bulky again. What can I do to improve my system guys?

Hi,

Heres what helped me.


1. Weigh your stuff.

2. When u return from a trip, empty your bag methodically, and make note of how useful each item was. Question its weight/worth.


The Sawyer minis are great. I had a year old Katadyn Vario, that I bought when Kayak camping, I hated to replace it, but the Sawyers are LIGHT. The filter, and a 2L platypus "hydro" bag with 3ft of hose is 6oz.


Ditch the Nalgene's. They are way heavy, using 16.9oz plastic water bottles saves a good bit of weight.

I can't really help with the tent, I use a hammock. I will say, if your bag alone is 5lbs, you can definitely do better, just depends on your budget. You might question whether you really need a 0 deg bag in favor of something lighter. I use "Jacks R Better" brand quilts and LOVE them.

Sounds like you are having fun. The good news is you found footwear that works for you.

A 75 liter pack is huge. Don't try to fill it or your pack weight will be about 60 pounds.

The weak point, as you pointed out, is your sleeping bag. Much depends on how often you will backpack and how much you can spend. If you only go out a few times a year a heavier pack and fewer miles works.

I use and Alpine 20 that is about $60. It weighs 2 1/2 pounds and keeps me warm to about 25 degrees with no pad. It packs small enough. While I'm thinking of it, be sure to put your bag in a plastic bag so it doesn't get wet. Most compression bags are not waterproof.

From here, the long term cheapest way to progress is to make a dream list of gear. The expensive items are the sleeping bag, tent, and pack. Most people suggest splurging on a sleeping bag if it is at all possible.

I put this one together as an example. Now I'd get rid of all specialized clothes. I'd consider a better sleeping bag with the money saved. The point of the list is not the specific gear, but the representative weights of each item.

Lightweight backpacking is mostly about the things you leave home, not about each item as long as the weight of each item is reasonable. We used to carry way too much food.

Consider car camping and hiking until you get your pack weight down if the heavy pack is making hiking unpleasant.

if you can justify it, the bag should be the first to consider changing...not a cheap thing to do, but you should be able to get a 30degree down bag that comes in at around 2lbs for around 200-250$ new. supplement clothing to make up the occasional night when it gets colder than you like. if you're dividing up the tent between three people, it's probably a good weight decision - if on the other hand if only two people are using it, consider something smaller. REI rents these so you can do a bit of experimenting. are you carrying a sleeping pad ( something else you could possibly loose some weight on.

Manufacturers usually have several lines of equipment. The MH tent you have is a tent from their heavier line of products. Most tent makers now have "UL (ultralight)" tents. You pay $100-200 more for the UL versions which are 1-2 pounds lighter and a lot more compact. Many UL versions are single-wall and made of the lighter weight silicon impregnated nylon instead of waterproof coated nylon. The UL tents "look" flimsy, but are actually quite tough. Any brand of UL tent will cost about $250 and upwards.

There are also 3-season and 4-season tents. The 4-season tents can handle snow, are heavier, studier poles, less mesh and can be entirely closed-up to keep out spindrift. These are both heavier and more expensive. Nowadays, 2-man tents are small and if two large guys are sharing a tent, go with a 3-man tent.

If you want to save bulk and weight you need a down bag, vs synthetic. Lots of down bags now use the new water-resistant down so are not as vulnerable to getting wet. Hard to get a good quality down bag for under $250. The one I have (bought 10 years ago) now costs $750!!! Down bags however are a life-time investment if cared for properly. And a sleeping bag is not backpack use only - you can use it car camping, hunting, or on any kind of trip.

For the shorter trips you are taking, you do not need the pack capacity that you have. I know it "feels great", but why carry an extra 3-4 pounds if not needed? Like others have said, if you already purchased it then nothing says you need to fill it up! You may want to keep an eye on a lighter pack for the future. I use a bear canister on most of my trips. If you need or are required to take a bear can, then the extra capacity is nice. I can get my bear can in my 3600 capacity, 2 pound 12 oz pack, a solo Tarptent, and food for a 10-day trip, but it took lots of trial-and-error to figure out how to pack it. By base weight without food and water is about 18-20 pounds. Then I take 1.25 to 1.5 pounds of food per day. You have not mentioned food and cook gear. That is one place you can also save some weight. You could easily go "no-cook" for a 2 night/3 day trip.

Those pre-made first aid kits are usually not well matched to individual needs. You may want to put together one yourself. There is probably stuff in there you do not need and some stuff not in there that you do need.

I have been in the Bitterroot Selway, and it is rough country, particularly if you go off-trail. I thought there were bears there. Are you required to take a bear can? Do you take bear spray?

Sounds like you have a good start. You may want to be more insistent that your friend have proper gear. His lack of preparedness will impact you too.

Just a note on the same subject: if there are items in that first aid kit that you are not familiar with or do not know how to use, it only makes sense to either learn how to use them (most likely using up the item as you practice with it) or else remove those items as pointless to carry about with you.

Just want to add a + to the responses above, especially Wandering_Daisy's. For your information, she does long distance, mostly off-trail backpacking in the Sierra and Wind Rivers and has written the definitive hiking guide for the Wind Rivers.

You do seem to have picked the "heavy" model for every item you have mentioned. This is a lightweight backpacking site, so our recommendations will always be for lighter versions that do the job just as well. Our motto here is "Lightweight backpacking is more fun!" Heavier items are not necessarily more durable or more suitable for rough conditions; they just weigh more. This of course assumes you take reasonable care with your gear and not throw it down or drag it over rocks! With lighter versions of the same gear, you can cover more distance (or the same distance, as you prefer) with less fatigue and less chance of injury.

Have you looked at the articles and gear lists on the home page of this site, left hand column? I used the "27-lb., 7-day list" as a model when lightening up ten years ago (mandatory because due to injury and age I could no longer carry a heavy pack). I didn't necessarily use the same brands or models, but used them as a guideline for weight. I've used a similar list for three-season camping in Washington and Oregon wilderness areas and summers in the wilderness areas of Colorado and Wyoming. I generally add a lightweight insulation layer for fall or spring. Since fall and spring in the Rockies are more like winter, I stay out here in those seasons.

When lightening up, it's often suggested to start with the "Big 4" (pack, tent, sleeping bag, sleeping pad) It's fairly easy to find lighter but perfectly adequate models for the Big 4, but that involves spending more money for items you've recently bought. You might consider starting with all the "other" items. That's the area where people tend to pack too many duplicate or unneeded items. Especially, don't look for a new and lighter pack until you've lightened up elsewhere. You can easily carry a lighter load in a heavy, overbuilt pack, but if you try carrying a heavy load in a pack built for 30 lb. loads, you will be very uncomfortable. Just try hard NOT to fill up your current enormous backpack--if you do, you're taking far too much "stuff." ! I can go out for a week with a 40L pack (plus good-sized side pockets) and have everything I need for my comfort and safety in high-altitude wilderness.

You might want to look at some recent posts in our Backcountry Beginners section, where there are lots of good ideas. The sticky post at the beginning of that section, by our longtime member phat, has summer and winter gearlists. Since he lives in Edmonton, Canada and mostly hikes the Canadian Rockies, he encounters more serious weather than most.

Another excellent source is Andrew Skurka, both his book and his blog. He has done long-distance backpacking expeditions in places like Alaska and the Yukon that I'll probably never visit.

Here's a really low budget gear list: The Frugal Backpacker--$300 Gear Challenge. It's designed for the Colorado Rockies.

EDIT, LATER: I forgot the truly excellent paper by our very own topshot! Lightweight gear for scouting.

That should help get your research started!

I didn't see any direct responses to your questions yet, so I'll cover that. The point of a compression sack is to compress, of course, so not having it in the compression sack where you can tighten down the straps will take MORE room in your pack. HOWEVER, it may make it more MANAGEABLE to pack the sleeping bag at least if it's not compressed. Just stuff it in the bottom of your pack. If you don't have a liner already, get an unscented trash compactor bag to ensure it stays dry no matter if you fall in a river.

As others have suggested, all the gear you've gotten so far is what I'd consider heavy, "traditional" stuff rather than lighter options. Some have already suggested sites you can research and I'll throw in the paper I wrote as well, which applies to newbies for most 3 season backpacking.

Topshot,

Your paper is an excellent resource. Have you considered making a Kindle book out of it? You could also publish on CreateSpace. It wouldn't make a lot of money, but it would be fun. It would also be easier than printing a bunch of copies for troop members.

One comment on leather boots. The other day I heard leather boots are required at Philmont.

Part of the problem I see is that you are buying your gear piecemeal. By that I mean you are buying gear at random because of a good deal or similar reason, but not considering how each piece works with what else you have.
Before you go any further, I suggest reading The Complete Walker or a similar book that discusses looking at gear as systems, such as shelter, kitchen, and bedroom.
The good news is that you have a huge variety of choices. The bad news is that you have a huge variety of choices. This is not meant to be funny; it's true. If I want to buy a sleeping bag, there are hundreds of choices from cheap bags at a big box store to top of the line down bags that cost hundreds dollars. The answer to the question of what do I buy depends on my use and budget. This applies to every purchase.
There are plenty of gear lists posted on the Internet. Some are generic, some are specialized expedition lists. Some, as here, focus on lightweight gear. Some are budget lists, others ignore costs.
In your case, I suggest you start with where you are going, most of the time, figure out the high and low temps and eliminate anything outside those parameters. Then set an overall budget. Within that budget, start prioritizing your needs. Then look at alternatives within the budget. If your budget is $100 for cook gear, that will eliminate a lot of stoves and cook kits, but doesn't mean you can't put a decent kit together for that amount. Do that with everything you need and you may wind up with a kit suitable for your needs. This will take some research and planning and a lot of time on the net but it will be worth it.
For example, I bought the parka in my photo for a particular set of trips. Most people would have no use for it; but I did. The same applies to a lot of my other gear. I still have other stuff I bought when starting out that I wouldn't buy now, but I see no reason not to keep it. Might come in handy some day.

That would be a new requirement for this year then. I don't intend to send my son with any, but will update if I find out otherwise.

No, I haven't considered making it an ebook.

Sorry, topshot, I forgot about your truly excellent paper!

Ableright: That's another source I highly recommend! I've edited my post above to include it!

An ebook is a great idea. I really enjoyed reading your paper. It could be rewritten to make it less Scout specific (so the average newbie doesn't think it only applies to Scouts). Maybe you could find a sponsor like REI to cover the costs. In any event, well done.
I just participated in a rather heated "heavy v. light" debate on another site and this paper would have been a useful source to rebut some of the "light is irresponsible and dangerous" arguments that were being made.

The only cost for publishing an eBook is $5.50 for a cover which you can get at www.fiverr.com. I recommend vikiana and use her for all my book covers.

It sounds difficult, but uploading a book is as simple as uploading a .docx document. The only trick is to not have tabs in any lists. It's best to hand format lists. You do need a table of contents with the bookmark 'toc' at the beginning. Word will make one automatically if you use styles for the chapter headings. If you have any questions, let me know. I have published 54 books on Amazon.

I would make the book scout specific. TomD, your suggestion has merit, but backpacking gear books do not sell well. Making the book scout specific would appeal to a specialized niche, and I think it would sell well to scouts and scout leaders. I'd add a chapter on "What to do with things your mother packs."

The "heavy" vs. "light" debate is interesting. The best advice I've ever gotten was "light is more about what is left behind than the weight of each item." (Within limits, of course.)

My comfort item used to be too much food, which is a silly comfort item as we can go for days without food barring any medical problems.

My thing is being light without being expensive. I'm light enough so I don't need to knock 2 or 3 pounds off as it won't make much difference.

Guys I just really wanted to thank you all for the help. I posted this expecting I would be lucky if I got a single response or two. I'm so glad online forums like this are still around for gathering a wealth of information for things like this. This seems like an awesome community so I just wanted to say that upfront to all of you.

I read that paper that was referenced is very handy. As wandering_daisy pointed out the Selway while beautiful is unforgiving if you're doing things that are wrong. It's truly rugged terrain and you're largely 100% self reliant. As far as bear spray goes I do carry some when I'm in the Selway Wilderness or any Wilderness/remote area.

A lot of people also carry rifles/guns which I would find far too heavy for what I'm doing. That said you are crazy if you don't bring at least "something for bears" preferably bear spray in my humble opinion. Many people bring handguns which I fear is largely psychological comfort since they aren't powerful enough to stop a charging bear and these people would be better off with bear spray.

In any case I've had many close encounters with bears in the Wilderness though I've never been charged by a bear. Last summer alone I had 3 bear encounters one of them in my car though which obviously wasn't dangerous. OregonMouse also thanks for those articles they are very helpful.

TomD topshot I have a couple questions for you guys. So firstly TomD I think your analysis might be correct on how I'm selecting gear piecemeal. I've largely been buying gear based on weight (to a degree) but largely on online review scores and price value or quality for the dollars spent.

I'm not saying that being picky about online reviews has hurt me as many of the products feel of quality to me and have carried out their functions. Topshot do explain what you mean by typical gear though friend? For example the tent seems fine and admittedly the ultralight version of the same tent weights 3 pounds less but is that worth paying for? Is there anything else wrong with my 5-6 pound tent selection?

In terms of what to fix first I feel the biggest problem is definitely the sleeping bag/system. The tent that I have I really do feel is quality and depending on how I'm packing there are ways to mitigate the weight. What I mean by that is you can pitch JUST THE RAIN FLY and bring that along if you're going solo and you want to save weight. The tent in total I believe with everything weighs like 5-6 pounds. There is an ultralight version Mountain Hardware sells for like 200 dollars more that weighs like 3 pounds in total.

This this is obviously better more compact (and 3 pounds less) it's simply doesn't warrant in my mind the extra money JUST to save 3 pounds. Sure it would be nice and somewhere down the line when I have the money I might buy the ultralight version of that that. The tent that I currently have is still highly reviewed in the positive and I can cinch this one "somewhat" heavy item to my pack but two heavy items like this (especially the sleeping bag) is definitely a big problem.

So at this point I am need to try and find a lightweight but somewhat cheap sleeping bag/sleep system. Right now I'm on a bit of a budget but a lightweight sleeping bag is a must. I'm also thinking of getting the cheap but quality Sawyer Mini instead of the First Need XLE.

My cook system I have mixed feelings about too. It's not that my cook system is heavy but it seems bulky. I paid about 100 for it and it's an MSR cook kit with 2 pots. I feel the biggest thing I could do is take just one of the pots. It's the MSR Base 2 Pot Aluminum set but mine also has 2 plastic cups and 2 bowls that all fit into the larger pot with the collapsible handle. Since most of my meals are prepared just boiling and adding water I think next trip I'm going to bring JUST THE SMALL POT for water.

The stove I use is the Primus Classic Trail Stove. The stove seems lightweight and quality to me for the money. Is there something bad about this stove? Should I consider a different cook set? My biggest complaint about this cook set is it's aluminum which leaves sort of a nasty taste to foods (at least it seems to). On a budget if I could do over again I'd get a steel one maybe?

Limiting my comments to your cook system, the one-pot alternative should be fine for the simple chore of boiling water and will save a lot of weight. Might be able to shave even more weight by fashioning your own lid from something light, like foil or a disc cut from a disposable aluminum baking pan. Many folks take this extra step.

It should not be affecting the taste of food or water, as aluminum is pretty non-reactive to begin with and virtually all outdoor cookware is either coated or anodized--yours appears to be coated.

Steel is the worst of both worlds: heavy and it scorches. For anybody on a budget aluminum is usually the best option, otherwise go the titanium route. Lightweight and indestructible, although cooking can be a challenge due to hot spots.

That Primus burner is overkill for water boiling. You can find a tiny, sub-2-ounce canister-top burner that will save weight and pack small for a double benefit. They're typically frugal with fuel, too. And on that topic, definitely add a windscreen to your kit if you don't already use one.

Cheers,

My sleeping pad is like a yoga mat I cut it to 3/4 of my height n cut the corners to save some weight Idk if you have an inflatable pad or not but Its an idea.

Nothing wrong with your stove. But, as pointed out, there are smaller ones available. If you are going solo, one pot for simple meals should be enough. Going UL, you could make an alcohol stove and cookkit from aluminum cans. There are many websites that show you how. If you want to do something more than just boil water, the canister stove is a good choice. Also depends on whether it's just you or cooking for two or more.
As far as a bag goes, lots of choices. A good synthetic bag is the TNF Cat's Meow. I have an old one. Kelty makes some similar ones rated around 20F. I recommend one of these because of price and durability. Not as compact as a down bag, but they take less care and cost less. Next, get a decent pad. I have a full length Ridgerest, but you can save money with one of the blue foam pads that cost about $10-15, pretty much the first pad most hikers start with. Once you move up to a better pad, you can cut it up the blue pad and make a little pad to sit on, a backrest or use pieces for insulation for pots.

Others have pointed out the Guidebook to Adventure has always had that wording, but even some rangers wear trail runners (and they are sold on-site, too).



Typical = heavy gear used by most backpackers. Nothing wrong with it if you wish to carry that much weight. I prefer to go easier on my body. If the tent work well for you then don't worry about it. However, if you're willing to pitch just the fly then you should look into using a tarp instead. In that case I made my own for about $20.

I'd buy the best bag you can afford. I wouldn't even go with the lighter filter yet just so you could spend $20 more on a better bag.

As for a cook set, if you're solo, I'd do an alcohol stove (Super Cat) and a beer can pot (I use a Heineken keg can but they aren't made anymore so you'd have to go with Foster's or similar). Keep in mind I ONLY boil water, I don't cook in the pot. You can still manage with alcohol if you have 2 folks and are willing to wait, but I often will take my MSR Windpro and a small pot (about 1.5 liter I think - it's the grease pot you can get at Walmart)

I posted this on another forum:

2014 Guidebook to Adventure:

"High quality hiking boots that are broken-in are required for the trails at Philmont."

Boots are not defined. There is usually a debate on this subject. I've never had a Ranger question personal choices (7 treks with two crews). We've had everything from high-top boots to Vibram FiveFingers. All survived, though the FiveFingers guy was stubborn and miserable. I didn't know his intent until it was too late.

I can second the supercat as a good choice for an alchy stove. I've got one and it was super easy to build and works great. It only requires something to measure with (to space the jets), a pen, a hole punch (the paper kind works on thin aluminum but it will dull), and a cat food can. However, I find myself using my double wall v8 can stove more often than not. Just be aware that these tiny alcohol stoves are really easy to knock over, especially with an unstable pot full of water on top of it. Canister stoves may be more weight, but they're also more stable and a lot more convenient to use. It's all about what you want to do and if it's worth it to you.