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#181858 - 01/13/14 07:52 PM 11 items only!
rockchucker22 Offline
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Registered: 09/24/12
Posts: 751
Loc: Eastern Sierras
As to not clutter this tread http://www.backpacking.net/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=181857&page=1 I thought it would be interesting to discuss backpacking with minimal amount of gear, Duane brought up that there are organized trips where people can only take 11 items. Do any of you have experience with these trips? If so what did you bring? If not what would you bring? At the very least it will be fun to speculate.


If I was forced to pick it would be:
1 backpack
2 quilt
3 sleeping pad
4 poncho tarp
5 trekking pole
6 headlamp
7 water bottle
8 water filter/aqua mira
9 lighter
10 Metal cup
11 spoon

Man that's tough. I know I'm missing something obvious!
_________________________
The wind wont howl if the wind don't break.

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#181859 - 01/13/14 08:29 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: rockchucker22]
hikerduane Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/03
Posts: 2124
Loc: Meadow Valley, CA
Tyson, I didn't get a helpful reply from the trip organizer of the trip I mentioned. Stove, bear bag, ground cloth or sleep with the food, or eat cold meals for a night or two. Doable. Pack weight around 6 lbs. in nice weather in the summer. I need to pack my summer stuff in a box, measure it and see if I could get a UL pack for a weekend trip. ZPacks Zero under 8 oz., give or take a little on how many pockets etc. that are added back.
Duane


Edited by hikerduane (01/13/14 08:30 PM)

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#181860 - 01/13/14 08:45 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: rockchucker22]
Glenn Roberts Online   content
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Registered: 12/23/08
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Ummm... Food?

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#181861 - 01/13/14 08:58 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: Glenn Roberts]
balzaccom Online   content
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Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 2026
Loc: Napa, CA
Wife.
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balzaccom

check out our website and blog: http://www.backpackthesierra.com/home

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#181862 - 01/13/14 09:00 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: Glenn Roberts]
Rick_D Offline
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Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 2912
Loc: NorCal
Originally Posted By Glenn Roberts
Ummm... Food?


Never allow a breatharian to do the group trip planning.

Just sayin'.
_________________________
--Rick

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#181863 - 01/13/14 09:05 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: Rick_D]
hikerduane Offline
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Registered: 02/23/03
Posts: 2124
Loc: Meadow Valley, CA
They also jokingly mentioned cargo pants. Just personal items, food not included in the count. This was for a 25 mile, two days, one night trip. Not much sacrifice, but gets you thinking, what do you really need?
Duane

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#181865 - 01/13/14 09:24 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: hikerduane]
rockchucker22 Offline
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Registered: 09/24/12
Posts: 751
Loc: Eastern Sierras
Oh man you mean I have to count my clothes?
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#181866 - 01/13/14 09:25 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: balzaccom]
rockchucker22 Offline
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Registered: 09/24/12
Posts: 751
Loc: Eastern Sierras
Originally Posted By balzaccom
Wife.
Ha, come on I know you can do better, or at least 10 more! grin
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#181867 - 01/13/14 09:49 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: rockchucker22]
jimmyb Offline
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Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 276
Assuming:
I would be starting out with 1 layer of warm weather clothing not including rain gear.
Food not needing to be cooked.
Not hiking in Brown bear country.

1 Water filter
2 Water bottle
3 Tent = Fly Creek 2
4 Fly
5 Pole
6 Sleeping bag
7 One extra top layer or lighter (not sure)
8 Rain jacket
9 Map
10 Compass
11 Backpack

Assuming the map and compass were considered a group safety item and I could add back in a couple items they would be.

1 Lighter or extra top layer
2 Headlight

Hmm. Not so easy but I think that would do it for me.

Edit = So much would depend on where we were going.



Edited by jimmyb (01/13/14 10:02 PM)

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#181868 - 01/13/14 09:51 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: jimmyb]
rockchucker22 Offline
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Registered: 09/24/12
Posts: 751
Loc: Eastern Sierras
No sleeping pad?
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#181869 - 01/13/14 10:10 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: rockchucker22]
jimmyb Offline
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Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 276
Yeah I know frown

For one night (as described above) I could go without. My concerns are keeping hydrated, dry and warm. After that its just putting up with a little discomfort for a while.

Hiking with some of you long haul trekkers would have me so tired I wouldn't notice a little thing like a sleeping pad anyway. laugh

jimmyb

Edit = if there wasn't a weight limit for the 11 items I would probably swap out the lighter or headlight for a mat. otherwise I probably wouldn't make the 6lbs.


Edited by jimmyb (01/13/14 10:14 PM)

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#181870 - 01/13/14 10:28 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: rockchucker22]
hikerduane Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/03
Posts: 2124
Loc: Meadow Valley, CA
Well, I need more stuff.
1. Pack-Zero with mesh frt pocket, shldr pouch 5.8 oz.
2. ZPacks Hexamid tent w/pole, stakes 13 oz.
3. EE 30F quilt 16.5oz.
4. GC 3 oz.
5. NeoAir small 9 oz.
6. Water filter-Sawyer mini 2.5oz.
7. Water bladders 5oz. ?
8. MT Down liner jacket 8 oz.
9. Sony camera 8 oz.
10 TP 2 oz.
11 Whistle .2oz.
Total 73oz=4lbs.9oz.
space for stove, pot, fuel and be under 6 lbs


Edited by hikerduane (01/13/14 11:01 PM)

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#181871 - 01/13/14 10:28 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: jimmyb]
rockchucker22 Offline
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Registered: 09/24/12
Posts: 751
Loc: Eastern Sierras
I didn't think 6 lbs was a requirement but I guess it would help to define all the limits, like weight.
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#181872 - 01/13/14 10:30 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: rockchucker22]
rockchucker22 Offline
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Registered: 09/24/12
Posts: 751
Loc: Eastern Sierras
Oh crap I forgot TP. I guess I'm using rocks and grass!
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#181873 - 01/13/14 10:41 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: hikerduane]
jimmyb Offline
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Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 276
Ooooh! If tent, pole and possibly fly come under one item that leaves me one or two more items assuming the 6lbs is out.

Technically though IMO the tent fly and pole or poles and each stake should all be individual items. Makes it a bit tougher. Something internal like batteries I would give a pass on.

jimmyb

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#181874 - 01/13/14 10:53 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: jimmyb]
rockchucker22 Offline
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Registered: 09/24/12
Posts: 751
Loc: Eastern Sierras
Ok I was forced to get out my digital scale and weigh my list.

Pack-GG Kumo 13.4 oz
EE quilt 15 oz
Nemo pad 13.6 oz
Go lite poncho tarp with guy lines 8.7 oz
MYOG trekking pole/ tarp pole 3.1 oz
Zebra light headlamp 3 oz
Platypus bladder with filter hook up 3.4 oz
Sawyer squeeze with bladder adapter and dirty water container 4.1oz
Ti cup 2.5 oz
Ti folding spoon .6
67.4 oz - 4.2125 lbs
I could use my much more comfortable Exped mat and still make the 6 lbs.
That would be 73.8 oz or 4.6125 lbs
So technically I could get away with a more robust shelter too. Or my WM down jacket.
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#181875 - 01/13/14 10:55 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: jimmyb]
hikerduane Offline
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Registered: 02/23/03
Posts: 2124
Loc: Meadow Valley, CA
Sticks for stakes, like I used Saturday night to guy up a tarp over my water resistant tent. Camera, there goes the event documentation.
Who's making the rules around here? smile
Duane

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#181876 - 01/13/14 10:57 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: jimmyb]
rockchucker22 Offline
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Registered: 09/24/12
Posts: 751
Loc: Eastern Sierras
Originally Posted By jimmyb
Ooooh! If tent, pole and possibly fly come under one item that leaves me one or two more items assuming the 6lbs is out.

Technically though IMO the tent fly and pole or poles and each stake should all be individual items. Makes it a bit tougher. Something internal like batteries I would give a pass on.

jimmyb
I'm not sure if a tent counts as one or each item! I guess it would have to otherwise you could say a cook set up is one item, stove, fuel, pot, or sleep system like bag, pad, ground cover. Good question.
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#181877 - 01/13/14 10:58 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: hikerduane]
rockchucker22 Offline
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Registered: 09/24/12
Posts: 751
Loc: Eastern Sierras
Originally Posted By hikerduane
Sticks for stakes, like I used Saturday night to guy up a tarp over my water resistant tent. Camera, there goes the event documentation.
Who's making the rules around here? smile
Duane
I thought you were! wink
_________________________
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#181878 - 01/13/14 11:07 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: rockchucker22]
hikerduane Offline
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Registered: 02/23/03
Posts: 2124
Loc: Meadow Valley, CA
OK, rule modification. You are allowed to count the shelter as one, includes pole, stakes, fly.
I wish I knew what the other group did to keep from making changes and complicating things. I can only count to 21 with my shoes off.
Duane


Edited by hikerduane (01/13/14 11:08 PM)

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#181879 - 01/13/14 11:11 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: jimmyb]
hikerduane Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/03
Posts: 2124
Loc: Meadow Valley, CA
jimmy, this gets you to thinking and see what gear is out there. Not cheap, but if you have sewing skills, many items can be made lighter than what can be bought ready-made and much cheaper. Surprising how cheap good down costs.
Duane

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#181880 - 01/13/14 11:12 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: hikerduane]
rockchucker22 Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/12
Posts: 751
Loc: Eastern Sierras
So does my trekking pole count as my tent pole since technically it is?
_________________________
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#181881 - 01/13/14 11:13 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: rockchucker22]
hikerduane Offline
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Registered: 02/23/03
Posts: 2124
Loc: Meadow Valley, CA
I would.
Duane

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#181882 - 01/13/14 11:14 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: hikerduane]
rockchucker22 Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/12
Posts: 751
Loc: Eastern Sierras
Originally Posted By hikerduane
jimmy, this gets you to thinking and see what gear is out there. Not cheap, but if you have sewing skills, many items can be made lighter than what can be bought ready-made and much cheaper. Surprising how cheap good down costs.
Duane
I guess that's why I'm looking at a $650 1 lb tent/pyramid shelter thingy. blush
_________________________
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#181883 - 01/13/14 11:28 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: rockchucker22]
hikerduane Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/03
Posts: 2124
Loc: Meadow Valley, CA
Not 100% sure I'll go with another Hexamid tent, at the moment it seems like the lightest option. If I went to a pound, I may get more wind protection in something. I could use my S-S bug net with pole and shave another 7 oz. off the gear weight.
Duane

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#181884 - 01/13/14 11:35 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: hikerduane]
rockchucker22 Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/12
Posts: 751
Loc: Eastern Sierras
How about the duplex, looks pretty good.
_________________________
The wind wont howl if the wind don't break.

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#181885 - 01/13/14 11:37 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: rockchucker22]
hikerduane Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/03
Posts: 2124
Loc: Meadow Valley, CA
I'd like the Plus, but then the staked footprint gets even bigger and a slight increase in weight. I did not like the footprint of the Solo Hex, but never tried to see if I could adjust that.
Off to bed.
Duane

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#181891 - 01/14/14 12:19 AM Re: 11 items only! [Re: rockchucker22]
wandering_daisy Offline
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Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2865
Loc: California
Too busy to really think this out right now, but few mentioned rain jacket. Are you only going if the weather report is for no rain? TP - do not need- for one night use the wash with leaves method. Water filter - I would not take it in most the areas that I backpack. Obviously no-cook food eliminates stove and pots. Only take your hiking water bottle and finger food. One of those filter/squeeze bottle combinations might be nice, but is that technically two items? First aid kit? Meds? I once forgot my allergy pills and suffered greatly. I know some folks have meds that they HAVE to have. Poncho-that-doubles-for-tarp is probably a good item. Also, if you had a tarp, you could wrap it around you for a rain jacket. You get your rain jacket plus shelter all in one. No steaks needed either. I never use a compass - just map. I suppose if you use a GPS, that could be one item for maps, watch, etc. I like my trekking poles, but they are not a necessity. One night only- ditch the toothbrush and paste- in fact all personal gear. I left my ditty bag in the trunk of my car once on a 3-day trip and although it was not pleasant, it was not a deal breaker. Headlamp- I often do not take any artificial light on my regular trips - even 10 day trips.

You need very little, really. BUT, at some point you are leaving out stuff that may be needed in emergency. The risk goes up.

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#181892 - 01/14/14 12:36 AM Re: 11 items only! [Re: wandering_daisy]
Rick_D Offline
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Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 2912
Loc: NorCal
What is this "rain" of which you speak? We don't do that round here, anymore.

Cheers,
_________________________
--Rick

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#181893 - 01/14/14 02:06 AM Re: 11 items only! [Re: hikerduane]
jimmyb Offline
member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 276
Quote:
jimmy, this gets you to thinking and see what gear is out there. Not cheap, but if you have sewing skills, many items can be made lighter than what can be bought ready-made and much cheaper. Surprising how cheap good down costs.


Oh, no doubt with more commitment to lighter gear I could squeeze into the profile. The wife and I always go as a team and with that in mind I think 12lbs between us would be doable. Items like the shelter become more like 1lb a piece instead of 2 lbs. for one. I like the challenge of items carried rather than total weight. I would be more strict in that regard. Then you really have to weigh out what is more important and if you are willing to carry the penalty of weight. You're fabrication skills become a great value as yours making poles and tent stakes. That's where it could be a lot of fun. Also makes it easier for all types backpackers unlimited, light weight, ultra light weight and super ultra's to join in the fun. wink

I do find the thread fun to think about and what I REALLY value when left to making skinny choices of gear.

jimmyb


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#181894 - 01/14/14 02:15 AM Re: 11 items only! [Re: wandering_daisy]
jimmyb Offline
member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 276
As far as personal meds. IMO it would be foolish for anyone organizing such a challenge to penalize anyone for taking health or possibly life sustaining meds. That would be begging for trouble.

Well unless they considered something like their sleeping bag as a pill box/bottle. shocked

jimmyb

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#181895 - 01/14/14 09:43 AM Re: 11 items only! [Re: wandering_daisy]
rockchucker22 Offline
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Registered: 09/24/12
Posts: 751
Loc: Eastern Sierras
I would love to hear your list WD!
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#181897 - 01/14/14 09:59 AM Re: 11 items only! [Re: rockchucker22]
skcreidc Offline
member

Registered: 08/16/10
Posts: 1590
Loc: San Diego CA
Now THIS is a good thread!!! Speculate smeculate....I say lets do it! Assuming the clothes on your back don't count here is my first pass list.

1) backpack
2) sleeping bag
3) pad (could do without this but I hate getting sap on my sleeping bag now. As a kid it didn't seem to matter)
4) gatewood cape style/ poncho (if no rain could do without) (for multi day could replace with one pair of spare underpants)
5) food (eat with fingers)
6) headlamp
7) matches or lighter
8) knife
9) Water bottle
10) filtration/water purification (I have gotten away without this but in drought conditions I think I will be hesitant to do it say this summer in the Sierra)
11) Flask of fine scotch wiskey....medicinal use only of course

Running out of time...got to get to work. I know I'm missing something but that is my first pass.

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#181898 - 01/14/14 12:16 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: skcreidc]
GrumpyGord Online   content
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Registered: 01/05/02
Posts: 927
Loc: Michigan
I find it interesting that so many folks take a headlamp and a water filter. If I take a light it is just a little proton squeeze light and I take chlorine dioxide tablets.

Obviously different strokes for different folks.

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#181899 - 01/14/14 12:16 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: skcreidc]
skcreidc Offline
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Registered: 08/16/10
Posts: 1590
Loc: San Diego CA
Ok. I think I remember how this works ... I used to use the large poncho as a multipurpose item; rain gear, ground cloth, and shelter. But I needed some line with it to pull it off as shelter. So, assuming the clothes on my back don't count, and ignoring food for now, here is what I have.

1) backpack 1.5 lbs
2) sleeping bag 2lbs
3) poncho (extra long as I am tall) 0.75lbs
4) paracord (handy stuff, but If I need to bring a bear canister and it doesn't look like rain, this item is out-a-there!)
5) extra pair of socks (I can go commando on multiday while the undies are drying, BUT I have to take care of my feet. Bottom line is I need 2 pair to switch out each day now) If the trip is overnight I can go without for sure. Otherwise I need to be able to peel off socks, wash and dry them at the end of the day. Could be optional depending upon conditions.
6) fire starting kit (I always carry one JIC)
7) knife (I always carry one JIC)
8) headlamp (I could do without this but would rather not)
9) 2 liter plastic bottle or platy under 2 oz
10) water filtration/purification (under typical Sierra Nevada conditions I could do without this) this is somewhat location/condition dependent for me
11) Well, this is food. Waaaaaaa......sniff sniff. no room for scotch frown I guess the spare socks are out after all.

Concerning food. Many areas do not require a bear canister and my stuff bag for the sleeping bag plus paracord equals food storage. Where we need a canister, I need to drop another item. Boo.... there goes the scotch again.

Are we assuming set up for solo? period? I am a little unclear on the "rules" to be honest.

edit: just read through the entire post. Depending on the "final rules", I may have to change my list quite a bit laugh . And I got a few good ideas. For the shelter, does the cord count like the stakes ect.?


Edited by skcreidc (01/14/14 12:26 PM)

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#181901 - 01/14/14 12:36 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: skcreidc]
rockchucker22 Offline
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Registered: 09/24/12
Posts: 751
Loc: Eastern Sierras
I think the cord for the shelter should not have to count as an item, many shelters have the cords attached.

As far as a head lamp goes, I use mine almost every day, around the house, at work, camping. It has become such a useful tool I just don't see going without. I have a tiny LED cord lock light that replaces my main cord lock on my pack to see gear inside the pack. I really like multipurpose items. Like the poncho tarp, rain gear and shelter rolled into one, same with the trekking pole.
_________________________
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#181902 - 01/14/14 12:38 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: skcreidc]
lori Offline
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Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
My SAR team used to do a fanny packer overnight.

My list would be:

heavy duty contractor bag
first aid kit
water purification tabs
metal water bottle
fire starting item (matches, lighter)
food
cord
clothing layers
tarp
map
watch

with so little, stuff is carried in the bag, which also lines the bough shelter or keeps you dry in rain. A granite overhang and a long shallow trench with embers can be a pocket of warmth on a cold night. Water can be boiled in the fire or treated with a tablet.

edited to remove the compass. you can find north without it.


Edited by lori (01/14/14 12:49 PM)
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#181903 - 01/14/14 12:39 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: skcreidc]
Rick_D Offline
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Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 2912
Loc: NorCal
ProAmateur tip: I leave lines attached to my poncho so I don't have to rig it every time I string it up, so would consider it one item. Save that scotch!

Cheers,
_________________________
--Rick

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#181904 - 01/14/14 12:44 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: rockchucker22]
Rick_D Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 2912
Loc: NorCal
Okie dokie, here's mine:

1. Poncho-shelter
2. Jacks or Better quilt-parka
3. Pad
4. Groundcloth
5. Knife
6. Lighter
7. Water in filter bottle
8. Cookmug
9. Headlamp
10. 1st aid kit
11. GPS

ETA: did I mention I'll be carrying a bindle? Step 1: find stick....

Cheers,


Edited by Rick_D (01/14/14 01:22 PM)
_________________________
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#181905 - 01/14/14 01:43 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: rockchucker22]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2865
Loc: California
I have never been sold on knife and headlamp as essential, if considering only an overnight trip. Proper trip planning can make the headlamp non-essential on short trips. I always think about setting up camp long before it gets dark. On most nights, except the overcast no-moon nights, your eyes will adjust to night time lighting. As for knife, all I ever use mine for is to cut food!

I assume the list is for what you would take on regular overnight trips in your area. We know we can survive with nearly nothing, but the list is mainly about priorities. If I were limited to 11 items, I would check the weather report and simply not go out if the weather were iffy.

1. Sleeping bag
2. sleeping pad
3. shelter - bivy sack- can sling over me if it rains
4. backpack
5. water bottle
6. insulating/wind proof extra layer with hood
7. 3 pound chunk of finger food- like fruitcake! Ha ha
8. map
9. first aid- if one item only allowed- large roll of FA tape
10. wool long johns (if cold) - or trade for camera if not cold
11. wool balaclava

I would not want to go more than overnight without sunscreen, toothpaste and tooth brush, lip balm, matches (fire building stuff),kerchief (my do-all item for towel, first aid, etc. Also would not go without mosquito repellant on if bug season. TP for longer trip. I think I would go without a bear canister even if required. I would just eat all my food at dinner and walk out the next day without food- no food to store, so still legal. The whole first aid thing is problematic if only one first aid item is allowed.

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#181906 - 01/14/14 01:44 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: lori]
wandering_daisy Offline
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Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2865
Loc: California
"clothing layers" is more than one item.

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#181908 - 01/14/14 01:56 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: wandering_daisy]
ETSU Pride Offline
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Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 933
Loc: Knoxville, TN
1. Backpack
2. Tent
3. Quilt
4. Pad
5. Water filter
6. Stove
7. Food
8. Mug
9. Socks
10. First aid
11. Poncho

This list assumes I'm somewhere warm and I'll just hike naked. grin The poncho just to keep me dry in event of rain.
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It is one of the blessings of wilderness life that it shows us how few things we need in order to be perfectly happy.-- Horace Kephart

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#181909 - 01/14/14 02:17 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: wandering_daisy]
lori Offline
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That would consist of a jacket.
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#181911 - 01/14/14 02:19 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: rockchucker22]
aimless Online   content
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If I am only allowed 11 items and there are Ten Essentials which should be taken on every hike, then I guess that leaves me only one more item beyond those ten, right? If so, then I choose a PLB. grin

More seriously, I may yet take a bit of time coming up with a list, but whatever I put on it, I will never take only eleven items, because there will never, ever be a need to confine my choices that drastically. On the contrary, if I voluntarily took so few items I would be unnecessarily endangering myself. frown

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#181913 - 01/14/14 02:54 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: aimless]
lori Offline
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I think I'll try it. I probably won't sleep, but it was a training for SAR - the unplanned overnight, using your day pack. It's not necessarily endangering you if you're trained well enough to manage with skill what is often managed with gear.
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#181914 - 01/14/14 03:16 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: lori]
skcreidc Offline
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I agree that this is something that you would try out as an overnighter first. I would even go one step further and say try it out in an area you are at least somewhat familiar with. I'm going to try this out after I give it a little more thought, although it'd be more fun to do this with someone else. I'll have to see if I can talk one of my friends into trying this (hehehe wink )

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#181915 - 01/14/14 04:11 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: skcreidc]
rockchucker22 Offline
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A short 2-3 mile hike in and try it out, except bring one extra item, a notebook and keep notes about what works and what doesn't . Better safe than sorry, a trip or 2 would tell you what works and what doesn't.
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#181918 - 01/14/14 06:53 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: lori]
aimless Online   content
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If the idea is to survive an unplanned overnight, then I suppose I should just list what I normally take on a day hike - but when it comes to that, I never count the items I bring with me; I just think about what it would take to survive if I had to stay out overnight, which varies depending on the expected weather and the hike location.

Long ago I noticed that most day hikers were woefully underprepared for an emergency night out and I now habitually pack for that possibility, no matter how familiar or populated the trail might be. I don't take enough to be especially comfortable, but I'd almost certainly survive the night.

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#181919 - 01/14/14 07:14 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: aimless]
Rick_D Offline
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Good point. If there's any chance at all of a quick weather change, I toss a bivy sack into my daypack in addition to the usual stuff. The combination is adequate to get me through any non-injury three-season misadventure I might encounter. Probably not comfortably, but adequate to make it through the night unscathed and ready to walk out. That's the goal, right?

cheers,
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#181920 - 01/14/14 07:16 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: aimless]
DTape Offline
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Posts: 666
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If the list must include the clothing worn, then it would be quite difficult as that is 4 items minimum right there, 7 items are typically worn by me (shoes, socks, pants, undies, base layer, wool shirt, hat). If those are excluded from the list of 10, it isn't hard for me to also stay under 6 lbs. This would be a minimalist kit, not one I would ever take.

1. Fanatic Fringe Backpack 9.6 oz
2. JRB Stealth Quilt 15 oz
3. Xtherm pad 15 oz
4. OES tarp 12.2 oz
5. 1 L platy 1.3 oz
6. cup 1 oz
7. knife 3.5 oz
8. lighter 1.1 oz
9. poncho 9.2 oz
10. bandana 1 oz

10 items 4.3 pounds, could make it lighter by dropping the tarp and using the poncho and swapping the xtherm with a ccf pad.
Like I mentioned, this is not a kit I would ever take on a trip. I like sleeping in my hammock too much and cooking food.
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#181924 - 01/14/14 08:40 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: aimless]
lori Offline
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I shocked a whole room of folks by describing how long it takes to mobilize a search team - your friends/family have to notify the appropriate authorities, and then most search teams are volunteer, and then they won't be sent out til the next day as the SAR teams that mobilize in the dark consist of... mine. Most teams do not. Helicopters do not fly at night in the mountains. So if you are injured on a hike and help is needed, you will be out for one night minimum.

The assertion I was contradicting was that a fellow who broke his leg was left waiting for too long and EMS took "forever" to get there. He was two miles from a trailhead, at the end of a paved road, 45 minutes drive at the speed limit from the nearest city. I put forth that four hours is PHENOMENAL response time to get to a hurt hiker, due mostly to his proximity to a road and cell signal. I added it all up for them - four hours drive to a true wilderness trailhead. Miles in, hiking that same trail they did with a backpack with a STOKES LITTER. Hiking the injured party back to the trailhead if a helicopter is not available (our bird is search only, we can only transport healthy and well search victims not in need of medical attention). A lot of things that can happen to delay this, such as weather grounding the choppers.

It's a huge wake up call. And while I realize this is dragging things off the original challenge post - it's really what it's about at the base of it, what you really actually need vs. what you think you need. The 11 item challenge is a great way to accomplish something actually helpful to any hiker, whether he's going six miles or sixty. You only get to 11 items if you think about needs. And it's interesting to see what people think they will need. I didn't put a sleeping pad or bag/quilt on mine, because I know that I could get through with clothing and just the items in the pack like the trash bag and a tarp.
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#181925 - 01/14/14 08:42 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: aimless]
wandering_daisy Offline
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As an alpine climber, I have spent quite a few nights, unintended, on some cold mountain ledge. I never slept, but survived. I have also done 4-day survivals with NO food. For the short term, food is optional; water is NOT! Training in survival is useful.

"Survival" or an unintended bivy is one thing; I think what the challenge here is all about is taking only 11 items and actually being comfortable. On an overnight trip, with a good weather report, shelter is not essential. Cowboy camping with just the sleeping bag works well. Cooking adds a lot of items but not that much weight if you choose light gear. Particularly if you do not enjoy cooking, taking non-cook food seems very reasonable and maybe even better. Those who feel really uncomfortable with 11 items, probably depend on their gear a bit too much.

To me, the controversial items are related to safety. What is really necessary and what can be left.

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#181927 - 01/14/14 09:19 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: lori]
rockchucker22 Offline
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Posts: 751
Loc: Eastern Sierras
I always tell my wife if I don't make it back from a day hike not to worry until the next day. I have spent a few nights hunting intentionally with very minimal gear with the thought of having to carry out meat. And like WD it wasn't the best nights but very doable. I like challenges of this sort as long as I can plan and minimize the what ifs. Now my son has really taken to backpacking I take even less chances, plus I want him to love it, not dread another trip. Luckily he is a great walker and is very at home outside. I know I know I seem to always bring him into our discussions but I'm proud of him. Sorry OT on my own thread.
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#181928 - 01/14/14 09:20 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: DTape]
rockchucker22 Offline
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Registered: 09/24/12
Posts: 751
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Your list is very similar to mine! cool
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#181930 - 01/14/14 09:57 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: lori]
hikerduane Offline
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Registered: 02/23/03
Posts: 2124
Loc: Meadow Valley, CA
Thanks for chiming in Lori. I was unable to stay with SAR long enough to do a o/n stay and get marked off for that. For SAR, just a few things to get thru a unplanned night, using natural features to get "by". I was working with CARDA here in Kalifornia with Pooch if you recall from past posts somewhere.
I usually don't bring a water filter and for summer time trips, stopped bringing a headlamp, even though it only weights an oz. I believe for my BD Ion.
Duane

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#181931 - 01/14/14 10:06 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: wandering_daisy]
hikerduane Offline
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Registered: 02/23/03
Posts: 2124
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Nancy, but "if it goes in you or on you", it has to be in a canister unless bear bagging is allowed, if even going to such areas. Got that drilled into me before a SEKI trip in Lone Pine FS?
This kind of trip would hinge on the weather forecast, but then also, the SUL and lower crowd say you have to be prepared for even rain, so a raincoat or protection along that line would have to be brought. Can't just lay on the ground with your windshirt over you and call that good.
Good points for the rest. Hats off to you if you can make it for a month in the Winds during the winter. I'll never be that well none.
Duane

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#181932 - 01/14/14 10:18 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: hikerduane]
aimless Online   content
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Registered: 02/05/03
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Loc: Portland, OR
Here are the ground rules I am setting out for myself:

I will not count among my 11 items my trail runners, light wool socks and liners, synthetic boxer shorts, shirt, bandana, eyeglasses, or convertible pants, which I wear at all times when I'm hiking. I will not count the food I bring to eat. I am assuming I will not be attempting to cross any terrain where the risk of injury is high, such as talus slopes or steep snowfields. I am assuming no worse weather than heavy rain, or a clear, cold night not dipping below my sleeping bag's rating.

Now, in the spirit of producing the most minimalist and UL-inspired list I know how to put together (that I would actually be willing to attempt) this would be my list:

1. frameless backpack with hip belt
2. 20 degree-rated down sleeping bag
3. 76" x 20" closed cell foam pad
4. single-walled, freestanding tent
5. two-liter platypus water bottle
6. gravity-feed water filter
7. bear can
8. rain jacket with hood
9. rain pants
10. waterproof dry bag for my sleeping bag
11. topographical map

Here are some explanations of my choices.

I would not cook my food, eliminating the need for a stove, a pot, or any other utensils. Non-cooked food is almost invariably finger food. This also opened up the possibility to eliminate a lighter or matches, which economizes on the number of small-fry items, which add up fast if you don't watch out. Eleven items is extremely hard to stick to.

For water, I chose a two-liter platypus so I'd have sufficient capacity I could walk away from a water source to spend the night, if that served my needs best. Water-born disease is not common in the wilderness, but it is the last thing you want to deal with when you've cut your gear down to 11 items, hence the water filter.

By choosing a single-walled freestanding tent I adroitly sidestep any arguments about whether stakes or a rain fly are separate items and I also minimize the necessity of staking the tent. In a windy situation I'd just have to anchor it with rocks, unless stakes are allowed me as part of the tent.

I tend to think preserving body heat is the most reliable way to stay warm. My sleeping bag is a hugely important piece of my safety equipment. That's why it gets its own dry-bag. The closed cell foam pad would provide decent R-value under me and be used to give some structure to the frameless pack, this being UL SOP. My backpack would probably have to double as my pillow, maybe wrapping it in my rain jacket, if the jacket is dry.

The rain jacket and pants are the most versatile items of extra clothes I could identify. They cut the wind and preserve warmth well. They can even be used in camp if the bugs are horrible. And in rain they would allow me to stay somewhat dry. A hood can keep your head warm and comes as a bonus with most rain jackets. If it is colder than the rain clothes can handle, I need to get into the sleeping bag pronto.

In cutting out most little bits and pieces of gear and safety items we all usually carry, I privileged staying warm, dry, and hydrated as 8 of my 11 items. The remaining three are: backpack, bear can and topo map. The backpack is self-evident and probably ought not even count as an item. A bear can is unarguably a single item and not losing my food in this situation is paramount. The topo map is the best insurance I could have for staying found whether I am on or off-trail.

Anyway, that's the sort of thinking that's behind my list.

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#181933 - 01/14/14 10:20 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: wandering_daisy]
hikerduane Offline
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Registered: 02/23/03
Posts: 2124
Loc: Meadow Valley, CA
WD, well said on your last reply. This thread isn't about only bringing things to get by in an emergency (sorry Lori), but to see how few you could bring and still have a good trip. Maybe not smelling the best afterwards, but a trip that makes you think more about less. smile
Thank you Lori for bringing in the survival thinking. More food for thought for many.

Thanks all for contributing, I stirred up some interest with a few folks I bp with a few times a year. We've done some theme trips, which were fun and inflicted little pain on us all.
Duane

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#181934 - 01/14/14 10:38 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: aimless]
rockchucker22 Offline
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Registered: 09/24/12
Posts: 751
Loc: Eastern Sierras
Great reply Aimless, one question, I have light weight rain pants but find myself clammy after wearing them for any length of time. Do you also experience this? I think for me at least I would rather have my down pants, they only weigh 3.5 oz (I think). But not in rain of course.
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#181935 - 01/14/14 10:45 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: rockchucker22]
hikerduane Offline
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Registered: 02/23/03
Posts: 2124
Loc: Meadow Valley, CA
I finally got an answer. They just tried to get by with a minimal # of items. They shot for 24 was the number I finally found out. We've done better and I think still had a good trip if we went with the lists. Getting to 24, then you could count a lot of little stuff like knife, matches, spoon, lamp etc. Maybe that would lower the ante, but we still need to shoot for a minimal weight goal. See what you could do without?
Duane

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#181936 - 01/14/14 11:10 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: hikerduane]
rockchucker22 Offline
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Registered: 09/24/12
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Loc: Eastern Sierras
Shoot 24 items that's more like typical amount of gear!
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#181937 - 01/14/14 11:12 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: hikerduane]
wandering_daisy Offline
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Registered: 01/11/06
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Loc: California
My thinking on the no bear can if all food is eaten on day 1, is that bear cans are not required for day hikers, so why should you need one if there is no food at the end of the day 1? It would be ridiculous! Bring a bear can and put nothing in it?

Another way to look at what we see as needed is to look back at what we brought in the "old days". I spent many summers in the Wind Rivers, in some horrible weather, weeks of rain, snow, horrendous mosquitoes. We only had wool pants - no rain pants, no long johns. Just thick sturdy warm wool pants. Our ponchos were knee length. Sometimes we got wet. We stayed somewhat warm in wet wool. We eventually dried out. We had no tents - just tarps. We went in groups (solo trips were rare in those days) and shared much of the group gear. First aid supplies were minimal; first aid training was extensive. Our "items" were heavy, but we really took less items than most backpackers take nowadays. Walk into REI nowadays, and you would think you need 100 items to go backpacking!

John Muir would go out for days with a heavy wool coat and hard tack in his pocket for food. I read a book about John Muir's childhood - people in those days grew up simply accepting a lot of discomfort as the price of living. They grew up spending a lot of time outdoors (farming) so being outdoors was simply normal. Their bodies were much more acclimated to hot and cold temperature variations. They did not seem to fear getting wet- just took it for granted.

I also think they were less concerned with "safety". A lot of other things killed people back then. Many children never even lived to grow up. I think they had more of an attitude that when your time comes, so be it.

So with our modern "choices" given by a multitude of "stuff", media telling us that we absolutely need it, our modern aversion to risk of any kind, and our softness both physical and mental, it is no surprise that we feel it is difficult to go out for one little overnight trip with 11 items.

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#181938 - 01/14/14 11:19 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: wandering_daisy]
hikerduane Offline
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Nancy, well said. smile Was wool invented when you were out? smile
Duane

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#181939 - 01/14/14 11:21 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: wandering_daisy]
rockchucker22 Offline
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Registered: 09/24/12
Posts: 751
Loc: Eastern Sierras
Thank you WD that is a awesome post! thanks
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#181941 - 01/14/14 11:28 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: wandering_daisy]
aimless Online   content
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It's nice enough to point at John Muir in his heavy wool coat with a few fistfuls of hardtack in his pocket and say that we have grown soft, but soft or not, I can't see any necessity for emulating Muir's approach, especially when he apparently spent a great many nights sharing the fire and possibly the food of the many shepards whose flocks grazed in the Sierras all summer and fall.

If I have the luxury of planning my trip and my equipment (as opposed to being caught out unexpectedly), then I'll be the well-fed old softie with his down sleeping bag, pad and tent, and NOT the tough old mountaineer laid out on the cold ground in a wool mackinaw gnawing on hardtack. smile

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#181944 - 01/15/14 12:31 AM Re: 11 items only! [Re: aimless]
jimmyb Offline
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Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 276
Great thread! I need to catch up...

I'm liking this thread cause it reinforces for me why I bother to take along each and every piece of gear in my pack. Im always thinking can I leave it behind and what are the consequences?

1. As said, and I have seen more than my share, day hikers woefully unprepared for a forced overnighter. I have always contemplated an immobilizing injury. Probably cause I've had a few in my day riding MX. cry If we are talking about surviving a night out 11 items seems to cover it. As a minimum rain gear and something to keep me warm always go with me. I realize as Lori mentioned that rescue is not going to be immediate in almost all situations. As a small boat sailor I have read the operational response procedures for PLB signals and its not like dialing 911 folks. Now if your not so equipped and your relying on someone coming along or on your hiking partner to fetch help its going to be a while. Bleeding and exposure would be my worst fears.

2. The 11 item overnighter gets us all prioritizing. Great thing to keep in mind every time you are loading your pack. Helps reinforce collecting those essentials on the living room floor first when loading the pack. I always use a list because I admit I am far from infallible when it comes to memory.

3. I find a lot of the items overlapping showing that in general we all have some similar basic needs. Some of the variants to my list may not apply to others and vise versa. I did not include hiking sticks in my original list but I take them on every BP and most day hikes because I have no natural balance since my inner ears were destroyed. I can do with out them but its a pain. Same with a headlight. I cant function as the light goes down. Without light I don't know which way is up. I left it off my list thinking I could hike only during lighted hours. It also goes with me on all BP and day hikes. So just a few examples of wanting to take items that others might find non essential.

3. I will probably take the challenge with my wife this summer on an overnighter on the AT here. There are stretches here with bear boxes, shelters, and plenty of water. Should make the 11 easy and hopefully under 6lbs. Cant remember if the weight is still a issue with our challenge here? I think another good learning experience would be to take along my day pack with no more than usual and spend a spontaneous night no more than say 3 miles out. It certainly will not be comfortable but very use full in proving what's in my pack. grin

jimmyb

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#181945 - 01/15/14 01:09 AM Re: 11 items only! [Re: wandering_daisy]
jimmyb Offline
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Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 276
Quote:
So with our modern "choices" given by a multitude of "stuff", media telling us that we absolutely need it, our modern aversion to risk of any kind, and our softness both physical and mental, it is no surprise that we feel it is difficult to go out for one little overnight trip with 11 items.


WD, Agree that many in this modern day are truly soft in comparison. I tend to get bummed when I think of all the electronic crappolla in our world robbing youngsters from connecting to what is REAL and all around us. frown

But...the human race is quite remarkable in many ways, and although maybe not in the mainstream of things, continues to live on the edge and risks just as much if not more to feel alive and in the moment. IMO people from the beginning of time have never taken personal demise very easily. Everyone will find out one day how dear it is when fighting for their lives. That I don't think has changed. The risks of daily life were more intense years ago as medicine alone could not save you from something like a simple fever or appendicitis.

But now that we are safer and more secure in our longevity we still crave that feeling of what it means to be alive. Who in their right mind from the past would jump from airplanes, and mountaintops with flying squirrel suits. Kids to day are risking life and limb jumping everything from dirt bikes to skateboards over insanely huge jumps in an effort to experience something more than what life is handing them. I think our ancestors would think we were hell bent on killing ourselves when it is really just trying to get back to feeling what it means to be alive. You yourself and all your adventures past and yet to come are a good example for others that wish to get outdoors and live! So fortunately IMO many are still tough enough to face their mortality even when they could just as well sit it out on the couch with a remote in hand. smile wink Keep inspiring folks WD and we'll help in changing the next generation... or at least a few of em.

jimmyb


Edited by jimmyb (01/15/14 11:19 AM)

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#181949 - 01/15/14 02:05 AM Re: 11 items only! [Re: jimmyb]
rodwha Offline
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Registered: 06/25/11
Posts: 131
Loc: Texas...for now
Why does such little weight matter on such a short hypothetical trip? 6 lbs? My pack weighs almost 5.

I didn't read through the whole thing...


Edited by rodwha (01/15/14 02:06 AM)
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#181950 - 01/15/14 08:54 AM Re: 11 items only! [Re: jimmyb]
hikerduane Offline
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Registered: 02/23/03
Posts: 2124
Loc: Meadow Valley, CA
At our local community college, the Rec instructor had a survival night, live like a hobo so to speak. You spent the night out in Sept., lows could be freezing or in the 40F's at least, sleeping in either your clothes or what could be found. I suggested to a friend to use two boxes with wadded up newspaper as the insulating layer between the two boxes, one of course smaller than the other. He did pretty good. The instructor checked everyone in in the PM and at about 6AM so they could get to class or work.
Duane

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#181953 - 01/15/14 11:09 AM Re: 11 items only! [Re: rodwha]
jimmyb Offline
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Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 276
Quote:
I didn't read through the whole thing...


when you do, you will understand. wink

jimmyb

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#181956 - 01/15/14 01:19 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: hikerduane]
Rick_D Offline
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Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 2912
Loc: NorCal
Originally Posted By hikerduane
I finally got an answer. They just tried to get by with a minimal # of items. They shot for 24 was the number I finally found out. We've done better and I think still had a good trip if we went with the lists. Getting to 24, then you could count a lot of little stuff like knife, matches, spoon, lamp etc. Maybe that would lower the ante, but we still need to shoot for a minimal weight goal. See what you could do without?
Duane

[Note to self: stereo is back in.]

Cheers,
_________________________
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#181958 - 01/15/14 02:06 PM Re: 11 items only! [Re: wandering_daisy]
OregonMouse Online   content
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Posts: 6738
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
Great, W_D! I remember the days of being out in cotton denim jeans and shirts, and Duofold long underwear which we considered "wool" but actually had a cotton inner layer (so not unbearably itchy) and a mixed wool/cotton outer layer. Synthetics (except rayon) were not yet available for civilian use when we started in 1945. We donned slickers (since we were traveling on horseback) when it started to rain, making sure our body cores stayed dry. Of course, the jeans got wet anyway while we were walking through wet meadows tending to the horses (my job!). (Many days I walked more miles after wandering horses than I rode!) I spent evenings standing by the campfire turning frequently, as though on a spit, to dry my soggy jeans, hopefully without scorching them. Waving cotton socks over the campfire (again in the hopes of drying without scorching them) was another popular evening activity. Believe it or not, we had a lot of fun laughing and joking during these evening drying sessions! Precious memories!

When nylon became available for civilian use after World War II, my parents were very skeptical of it and didn't see any reason to replace the gear they already had (waxed Egyptian cotton tent, waxed cotton-shelled down sleeping bags). Of course because they were horse-packing, there was less need for light weight, and the early nylon stuff was just as heavy, if not heavier, anyway. I remember it impressed me as really clunky!

I do rembember visiting (with my parents) Roy and Alice Holubar in Boulder, CO, in the mid-1950's, when they were still working out of the basement of their home. Roy taught math at the University of Colorado and Alice did all the sewing. This was the vanguard of the gear revolution. I didn't realize that at the time, but in the light of later history, this visit has since become a treasured memory. More info about the Holubars here.

Re eating up the food on Day 1 so no bear can is needed--do you really think the NP rangers would believe that when they found you camping out overnight?


Edited by OregonMouse (01/15/14 02:08 PM)
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#181994 - 01/16/14 12:39 AM Re: 11 items only! [Re: rockchucker22]
billstephenson Offline
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Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Interesting concept and responses...

It's somewhat similar to the "Let go without food and eat only what we can hunt and gather" challenge.

The overall reasoning in both is you will learn something about yourself and become more confident and skilled in the process. These feel to me like rushing the process though.

The thing is, you could learn to make do without intentionally leaving anything behind. There's really very little difference between not taking it and not using it, but neither of those give you the real life experience you're looking for.

That said, I know for sure I could do just fine with these items in most conditions for one night:

Sleeping bag
Sleeping pad
Large SOL emergency blanket.
Guyline
Lighter
Dehydrated food
Coffee
Wool sweater
windproof jacket w/hood
2 cup stainless steel mug
Pack

I'd rig the SOL blanket as a tarp for shelter, make a fire with sticks, a stove with rocks, use the cup to boil water, eat a lot of one kind of food, whatever it was, find a rock to use as a knife and whittle a stick for a utensil and find another big stick to defend myself from bears and axe murderers.

Now, for real life experience what I do instead is forget or break stuff. That way I can learn and relearn those lessons without really planning it at all. This method gives you the advantage of surprise, which is really much more devastating emotionally, and therefore arguably a much better approach to learning how to deal with it.

For example, I forgot my sleeping pad on a recent trip. Not long before that I forgot my stove. Now I know I'd rather forget my stove than my sleeping pad, but you might not learn that if you made a list like the one above.

_________________________
--

"You want to go where?"



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