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#177039 - 05/13/13 04:44 PM Backpack for my son
Swizzle Offline
member

Registered: 02/24/03
Posts: 101
Loc: Southern Adirondacks of New Yo...
I finally took my son out on his first backpacking trip this past weekend and I noticed how little room his biggest school backpack has. He's a lightweight at 43lbs and I dont want to overwhelm him which is why I carried half of his gear. Is there any decently priced packs for my young pup that has a external frame and a hip belt? Any help would be greatly appreciated. I'm estimating 15 to 20lbs of gear. Suggestions for lightweight gear to fill the pack would also be awesome. Than you for reading and happy hiking. Jason

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#177043 - 05/13/13 06:53 PM Re: Backpack for my son [Re: Swizzle]
Glenn Roberts Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 2208
Loc: Southwest Ohio
I wouldn't limit my search to external frame packs.

Deuter and Osprey both make kid-specific internal frame packs with adjustable suspensions (Osprey's may even have an adjustable-length hip belt?) at reasonable prices. The first place I'd check is REI - they seem to carry a large number of kid packs, and their own house brand gear is usually top notch.

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#177046 - 05/13/13 07:57 PM Re: Backpack for my son [Re: Glenn Roberts]
Swizzle Offline
member

Registered: 02/24/03
Posts: 101
Loc: Southern Adirondacks of New Yo...
The reason I'm looking for an external frame is the ease of strapping his sleeping bag and tent and such to maximize the internal pack space. i use mine pretty extensively and will most likely never go back to an internal frame. Thanx for the heads up. I'll go check it out and see what I can find.

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#177047 - 05/13/13 08:08 PM Re: Backpack for my son [Re: Swizzle]
rockchucker22 Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/12
Posts: 751
Loc: Eastern Sierras
20 lbs is too much, really you want to shoot for about 10-20% of the child's weight. So in order not damage the growing skeleton I would shoot for 5-8 lbs max. I know this is tough but with good gear it's totally doable. Mostly you need to lighten your load to compensate for all his stuff you will be carting. My son has an rei kids pack that's pretty good. I think it's the comet.
_________________________
The wind wont howl if the wind don't break.

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#177048 - 05/13/13 08:15 PM Re: Backpack for my son [Re: rockchucker22]
Swizzle Offline
member

Registered: 02/24/03
Posts: 101
Loc: Southern Adirondacks of New Yo...
I'm just going by what he's carried around the house without to much trouble. This past hike was only a quarter mile and I carried most of it. He managed about 10lbs himself on this one. I have no intentions of taking him over a mile with his pack full and I'll be there to monitor him and take the full load if I have to. He's small for his age and I don't want to push him to hard. The important thing is that he develops a true love for the outdoors. Forcing him to carry an overloaded pack would make him feel like backpacking is a hassle and I want to avoid that. I do appreciate your concern. I just wish I had the money to spend on ultralite quality gear. What is the first thing I can work on towards reducing the load?

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#177049 - 05/13/13 08:30 PM Re: Backpack for my son [Re: Swizzle]
Glenn Roberts Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 2208
Loc: Southwest Ohio
I'm not going to try to talk you out of an external pack, particularly since "I'll never go back to an internal" sounds like you have experience with both. (I also have experience with both, and I'd never go back to an external - doesn't mean either of us is right, just that we have different preferences.)

However, just in case you weren't aware of it, an internal and external frame pack of the same capacity will be different sizes - the internal will be about 1,000 - 1,500 cubic inches (20 - 25 liters) larger. This is because the tent and sleeping bag go inside the internal frame pack, rather than being lashed onto them. A common mistake made with internal frame packs is to lash stuff onto them - they're usually designed so that most everything goes inside; dangling lots of stuff off it moves the center of gravity significantly outward, and makes them incredibly uncomfortable. The only thing I've ever been able to strap on an internal is a sleeping pad, vertically.

Again, not trying to change your mind, just mentioning the loading on the off chance you weren't aware that they don't pack the same as an external.

Good luck on the search.

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#177055 - 05/13/13 10:50 PM Re: Backpack for my son [Re: Swizzle]
topshot Offline
member

Registered: 04/28/09
Posts: 242
Loc: Midwest
I hope you're kidding about having your 43 pound son carry 15 lbs of gear. My 6 year old is close that (45 I think now), but I limited him to about 5 lbs total (may be over with full water bottle). Of course, we aren't doing quarter mile trips either so I suppose your son will manage fine. We're planning a 25 mile or so loop at Grayson Highlands next month. Best backpack for that age IMHO is the REI Tarn 18. Once he starts carrying his sleeping bag also I'll likely have to make him a pack since all the "next size up" ones for kid torsos weigh 2+ pounds (which is more than my pack).

Personally, I think he'd love the outdoors more by not carrying a heavy load but going farther to cooler places to see.

Originally Posted By Swizzle
I just wish I had the money to spend on ultralite quality gear. What is the first thing I can work on towards reducing the load?

Don't need a lot of money for ultralight (for him at least). My son carries a set of generic fleece PJs, a Coleman small youth rain jacket ($8 @ Walmart), a Columbia fleece jacket (hand me down from someone), a pair of my wool socks for sleeping, polyester knit gloves and hat, a little floppy-brim hat, sunglasses and a 20oz bottle. That is carried in an REI Super Nova pack (which is smaller than the Tarn 18). He used his larger school backpack before that but it didn't look like a backpacking backpack and the straps were not comfortable even with such a light load over long distances.

I did buy him some Campmor hiking shirt and pants (still not expensive and he gets to look close to dad). He wore nylon "track" pants and a fleece shirt before that. He wears full-toe sandals from Walmart. I also bought him his own pair of "mountain" (eg, Darn Tough Vermont) socks. He used to wear a pair of mine that fit like crews on him (thankfully I have small feet).

He sleeps in the down bag I got for my wife. That is where the biggest expense (and weight savings) would likely be for you. We share a shelter so the only extra thing of his I'm carrying is the 2 lb sleeping bag. His pad is cut down blue foam that I use for my pack's frame so I need to carry it anyway.


Edited by topshot (05/13/13 11:13 PM)

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#177056 - 05/13/13 11:13 PM Re: Backpack for my son [Re: topshot]
rockchucker22 Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/12
Posts: 751
Loc: Eastern Sierras
Perfect response top shot! My 10 year old and I are planning several trips, one about 28 miles and 5000 vertical feet climb. We walk at a pace which we can converse the whole time, stop whenever the interest prevails, keep it fun, senic, and educational. My son begs to camp each and every weekend, luckily!
_________________________
The wind wont howl if the wind don't break.

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#177057 - 05/13/13 11:21 PM Re: Backpack for my son [Re: rockchucker22]
topshot Offline
member

Registered: 04/28/09
Posts: 242
Loc: Midwest
Originally Posted By rockchucker22
Perfect response top shot! My 10 year old and I are planning several trips, one about 28 miles and 5000 vertical feet climb. We walk at a pace which we can converse the whole time, stop whenever the interest prevails, keep it fun, senic, and educational. My son begs to camp each and every weekend, luckily!
Wish we lived in an area like you do! Our middle son (15) and I will be doing the last 60 miles of the JMT into Yosemite early July as part of our major road trip. Very much looking forward to all our stops. smile

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#177058 - 05/13/13 11:24 PM Re: Backpack for my son [Re: Swizzle]
rockchucker22 Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/12
Posts: 751
Loc: Eastern Sierras
To reduce your load , do a few searches, and look at the links on the main page. Oragon mouse has some great sage advice! Look at your main 3, pack/ bag/ shelter, then eliminate all items you dont use. Try putting a piece of tape on each item in your pack and as you use the item take the tape off. Every item that has tape after a trip, eliminate it. Extra clothes are a huge culprit of exsive weight. Take note, look at all your gear, every once makes a difference.
_________________________
The wind wont howl if the wind don't break.

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#177066 - 05/14/13 08:37 AM Re: Backpack for my son [Re: Swizzle]
skcreidc Offline
member

Registered: 08/16/10
Posts: 1590
Loc: San Diego CA
I have to jump in and say that YOU probably want to carry most of his gear at first, and slowly transfer it over to him as he grows and ages. With my kids, I started with clothes, sleeping bag and pack. That was it. And that may have been a little too much to start with at 6 which is when I started my daughter. Definitely get a kid sized pack; a pack with too large a profile will catch the breeze easily and could toss the kid around on windy days. I ended up getting a nice little external frame for her, but it has been long since discontinued (a Kelty that ran about $50 back then). Check out REI for some reference points, but you may just want to get a cheap but comfortable day pack to start. Wait till he grows some and he will fit much better into what is out there.

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#177067 - 05/14/13 08:55 AM Re: Backpack for my son [Re: Swizzle]
Glenn Roberts Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 2208
Loc: Southwest Ohio
Are you estimating about 20 pounds of gear for his load, or for your combined loads? The context of the post isn't really clear.

A twenty pound load for a 43-pound kid (I'm estimating he's 7 or 8 years old?) is probably too much for any prolonged hiking (say, more than half a mile.) However, a twenty pound load for the two of you to share...well, are you sure you really need any advice from us? smile

If the weight and/or fit of his pack is problematic for now, you might consider doing something closer to a car-camping experience. In many of the National Forests in the east, you can drive into the forest, park at a pull-off, and camp near (say, a couple of hundred yards) from the car. You could teach him how to camp, cook, etc., and do dayhikes without heavy packs, all while avoiding the public-campground experience. Then, when he's bigger, you can backpack further in.

Just a thought.

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#177099 - 05/15/13 05:43 PM Re: Backpack for my son [Re: Glenn Roberts]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Here are some options
Kelty Sanitas
and
Kelty Jr Tioga

I have the older version of the Junior Tioga. It is lighter than the Sanitas. I have had my 8 yr old wear it with only his sleeping bag and clothes, and it was pushing his limit. It was good we weren't going far. These packs are perfect for 10-12 year olds. After that, they can take a larger pack. For kids younger than 8, I would say you need to carry 75-90% of their gear. When my kids are 4-6, they only carry water, snacks, and rain gear.
_________________________
I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

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#177106 - 05/15/13 10:24 PM Re: Backpack for my son [Re: finallyME]
topshot Offline
member

Registered: 04/28/09
Posts: 242
Loc: Midwest
Originally Posted By finallyME
Here are some options
Kelty Sanitas
and
Kelty Jr Tioga
Except those are both over 3 lbs. frown

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#177107 - 05/15/13 11:15 PM Re: Backpack for my son [Re: topshot]
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
Asking 43 lb. person to carry 20 lbs. is the same as a 135 lb. person (like me) carrying 60 lbs and there is no way I could do that, at least for very long. There is a reason this site exists and that is because few of us are in the condition of a Special Forces or Seal team member and I would bet your kid isn't either.

Keep it light, keep it simple, keep it fun. Your kid isn't training for special ops, so don't treat him like he is.
_________________________
Don't get me started, you know how I get.

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#177112 - 05/16/13 11:21 AM Re: Backpack for my son [Re: topshot]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Originally Posted By topshot
Originally Posted By finallyME
Here are some options
Kelty Sanitas
and
Kelty Jr Tioga
Except those are both over 3 lbs. frown


The Sanitas is over 4. I would probably not recommend that one.
But, there are other packs out there. Lets find some:
For all the external haters....here are some internals-
REI Passage 40
This one is 3 lbs 4 oz and $99.

Deuter Fox 30
This one is 2 lbs 7 oz and $100.

Deuter Fox 40
This one is 2 lbs 14 oz and $110.

Osprey Jib 35
This one is 3 lbs 3 oz and $130. It also says it is sized for 10+ year olds.

All these packs are lighter than the Kelty Jr Tioga. The Osprey is lighter by 3 oz and the REI one is lighter by 2 oz. I would take the Osprey off the list, just because I don't think it would fit. The Deuters look like the best ones. BUT, only if he has a proper sleeping bag, and the pack fits the kid.
The OP asked where the best place to start dropping weight is. I would say that the sleeping bag is the best place. The sleeping bag determines the rest of your gear. A light compressible bag can fit in a small light pack. A big bulky bag needs a different pack.

My advice, if the kid is less than 7, only make him carry a frameless pack (book bag) with rain gear, snacks and one liter of water. 8-10, keep his pack weight less than 10 lbs total. After 10, slowly increase the weight, depending on his growth and strength. At 12, he can carry his own gear. At 15 or so, you make him carry your gear to slow him down.
_________________________
I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

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#177113 - 05/16/13 12:01 PM Re: Backpack for my son [Re: finallyME]
skcreidc Offline
member

Registered: 08/16/10
Posts: 1590
Loc: San Diego CA
FinallyME, have you weighed your old Tioga Jr? If I remember correct (a big IF, I grant ya!) ours weighed close to 1.5 pounds weighed on a kitchen scale. That's a weight worth looking for to put on a little kid. That's why you might have to settle on a daypack; to keep the weight down and not have the pack be too bulky.

Repeating stuff I know, but just have the little one carry as little as possible. Maybe a light pad too, so he looks like his dad when you go out wink .


Edited by skcreidc (05/16/13 12:04 PM)

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#177114 - 05/16/13 12:11 PM Re: Backpack for my son [Re: skcreidc]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
My bathroom scale isn't that accurate. I should probably bring it to work and weigh it on one that is more accurate.

Edit:

I just looked at a spreadsheet I have, and it looks like I weighed it. 2.86 lbs.


Edited by finallyME (05/16/13 02:03 PM)
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I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

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#177119 - 05/16/13 01:12 PM Re: Backpack for my son [Re: finallyME]
OregonMouse Offline
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
Watch out with the sleeping bag; some kids still have occasional accidents at night up to age 8 or 9; some even later. (Unfortunately this runs in my family.). You definitely don't want the kid in a down bag until there have been no accidents for at least the past year or two!

The North Face Tigger is an excellent sleeping bag for kids up to 58" tall. It's synthetic, warm, quite washable and not overly heavy. By the time they outgrow that, an adult down bag will work fine. If it appears the young man or women will be a tall size when (s)he is grown, get a tall adult size once the Tigger is outgrown. That's what I did!

If you look in the "Hiking with Kids" section of this forum, you'll see a lot of complaints (including my own) about the lack of lightweight backpacks for kids that have good supportive structure to them. The supportive structure is essential! IMHO, the Deuter Fox 30 is a truly comfortable and supportive backpack. It's also almost infinitely adjustable. If the manufacturer would just use a lighter fabric (such as Dyneema) and leave off all the gewgaws, it would be a pound lighter and just as supportive! However, the child may have other ideas. My grandson, when I got him the Fox 30 at age 9, took one look at it, fell in love with it and absolutely refused to let me "lighten" the pack (more aptly described as creative butchery) by cutting off some of the excess gewgaws. At least this way the pack will be fully salable even after his younger sister and still younger brother have outgrown it!

One great thing about the Deuter Fox 30 is that it contains more adjustment features than any pack I've ever seen, and the literature that comes with it gives considerable detail on just how to adjust the pack to the child. You should be able to find one for under $100. I just did a quick google shopping search and found it for $79 several places, including Next Adventure here in Portland, OR.

Swizzle, please do remember that young children have immature bones, muscles and joints and can't carry heavy weights. 10% to, at the very most, 15% of the child's weight is a more than sufficient load. I'd say no more than 10% if you're using a cheap kids' book pack (which won't support much weight) and 15% if you're using a supportive framed pack such as the Deuter Fox 30 or a similar pack. In the meantime Dad (or, in my case, Grandma) gets to carry part of the kid's load. It's most important that the kid have a good time and learn to love backpacking and the outdoors. That's not going to happen if the child has too heavy a load for his immature body (which can cause permanent injury) or an uncomfortable pack!
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May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

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#177120 - 05/16/13 02:06 PM Re: Backpack for my son [Re: OregonMouse]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
OM, was the Fox 30 adjusted all the way down with your grandson when he was 9? Or could it have accommodated a smaller size?
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I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

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#177122 - 05/16/13 02:30 PM Re: Backpack for my son [Re: finallyME]
OregonMouse Offline
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
No, JP was already almost midway in the adjustment at age 9. His little brother could wear it at age 7 (we didn't try it earlier, but he could probably have worn it at 6). At age 7, JP was using an older model REI chldren's pack. At age 13, although JP hasn't started the teenage growth spurt yet, he has basically outgrown the Fox 30--it's at the largest adjustment and he wants to carry more than we can squeeze into the 30-liter pack (his fishing tackle is a problem). He can now carry all his gear and most of his food (thank goodness!) and that won't all fit in the 30 liter pack, either. Probably the Deuter Fox 40 youth pack will be next, until that growth spurt gets going (his father didn't start until 16, so we're not anticipating it soon). I'd prefer to get him a ULA Catalyst, equal comfort but much lighter, but the price differential is just too steep for a pack that will be outgrown in a few years.

It's going to be a toss-up as to which child goes to an adult pack first--JP or his 11-year old sister, who is already starting her growth spurt!
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

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#177125 - 05/16/13 04:52 PM Re: Backpack for my son [Re: OregonMouse]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Originally Posted By OregonMouse
No, JP was already almost midway in the adjustment at age 9. His little brother could wear it at age 7 (we didn't try it earlier, but he could probably have worn it at 6). At age 7, JP was using an older model REI chldren's pack. At age 13, although JP hasn't started the teenage growth spurt yet, he has basically outgrown the Fox 30--it's at the largest adjustment and he wants to carry more than we can squeeze into the 30-liter pack (his fishing tackle is a problem). He can now carry all his gear and most of his food (thank goodness!) and that won't all fit in the 30 liter pack, either. Probably the Deuter Fox 40 youth pack will be next, until that growth spurt gets going (his father didn't start until 16, so we're not anticipating it soon). I'd prefer to get him a ULA Catalyst, equal comfort but much lighter, but the price differential is just too steep for a pack that will be outgrown in a few years.

It's going to be a toss-up as to which child goes to an adult pack first--JP or his 11-year old sister, who is already starting her growth spurt!


My bet is that his sister will grow first. My daughter grew like crazy at 11. She is probably close to full grown now. I plan to get her a pack next year, and it will probably be an adult pack that will last her until she wears it out. Of course, most of my scouts are about full height by 14. They aren't full weight, and their shoulders aren't broad, but their feet are generally pretty close to full size. It is always funny to watch their coordination as their body keeps changing dimensions.
_________________________
I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

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#177144 - 05/17/13 09:51 PM Re: Backpack for my son [Re: Glenn Roberts]
Swizzle Offline
member

Registered: 02/24/03
Posts: 101
Loc: Southern Adirondacks of New Yo...
I was talking about his pack weight. For a sleeping mat we bought a wally world pool mat, his sleeping bag is a target special his tent is a little dome tent. He's 9 and will be 10 next month and will be going into boy scouts soon. When he does he'll be expected to carry his own pack. Momma packed his clothes for him and I repacked it and took out more then half of what she put in there. His lantern is a little 3AAA type lantern. Other then that he has his fishing gear 1st aid kit, and a water bottle and that was pushing 20lbs. His tent on this last trip was actually his bigger one for car camping. We're not long distance hikers so for now I limit him to 1 to 2 miles without a pack for day hikes and the quarter mile was his first trip with a pack. I know, slacker dad. I gotta get him out in the woods more for sure.

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#177145 - 05/17/13 09:53 PM Re: Backpack for my son [Re: finallyME]
Swizzle Offline
member

Registered: 02/24/03
Posts: 101
Loc: Southern Adirondacks of New Yo...
I'm liking the looks of the tioga. Now I just need some money to buy it.

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#177146 - 05/17/13 09:57 PM Re: Backpack for my son [Re: TomD]
Swizzle Offline
member

Registered: 02/24/03
Posts: 101
Loc: Southern Adirondacks of New Yo...
I kinda get the feeling everyone thinks I'm standing behind him with a whip and forcing him to climb a mountain with a loaded pack. That's not the case at all. I would take his whole pack if I needed to. His pack before he left the house was down to 15lbs and I ended up carrying his sleeping bag and his tent. I know that overloading him would only keep him from enjoying the outdoors and that is the last thing that i want to do.

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