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#176329 - 04/09/13 11:01 AM Re: Trip Leader Best Practices ***** [Re: lori]
Glenn Roberts Online   content
Moderator

Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 2208
Loc: Southwest Ohio
I like what you say about the "little things" that turn into big things ("Well, my big toe feels like it's hot in the middle, but I don't want to sound like a wimp - it'll probably be OK...") and getting folks not to be polite.

Sometimes, too, it's being obsessive when you're actually walking. I have a friend whose on-trail leadership with beginners I really admire. Before the trip, he tells everyone "there are two rules to backpacking. Rule 1 is Be Safe; Rule 2 is Have Fun. If you ever feel, for any reason, that you're not safe, tell me. If you ever feel, for any reason, you're not having fun, tell me. We'll do what's necessary to fix that." As a result, we've had people say, "Andy, I don't feel safe on that narrow trail at the edge of the cliff," and so we do something (such as a "chair rail" of hiking staffs) to fix it. "Andy, I'm not having fun anymore; I'm really get tired and winded." We slow our pace, or take a break and get out a map to show them how far we are from the next arch or other scenic spot. (He goes out of his way to ensure that beginner trips are in high-scenery areas, i.e., "fun.")

But he's also obsessive about the little things that we all do naturally in the rhythm of a trip, but beginners don't know yet. Anytime we stop for a rest or a mini-class (water purification, how to dig a cathole, etc. are covered on the trail), he says, "It's a bit cool, you might want to put on a layer before you get chilled" or "this would be a good time to get a drink and maybe eat some trail mix," and he'll always ask, "Is anyone getting a hot spot on your foot? Is everyone's pack riding comfortably? Does everyone have at least half a liter of water?" Then, when it's time to start back up, it's "When we get walking, we'll warm up quickly - this would be a good time to take off that layer you put on when we stopped." Often, by mid-afternoon, these things have become automatic for everyone in the group. (I've hiked with "graduates" on subsequent trips, and the lessons stuck.)

There are three or four of us who have worked with him a good bit in these classes; usually, at least two of us go along. We consciously place ourselves in the middle and rear of the group (usually 8 or 10 folks), and switch places at the breaks. It allows us to let different people hike at different paces without feeling like they're holding folks up. Those in the front see a couple of leaders strung out behind them and get the concept of HYOH; those in back see leaders strung out among the group and understand that speed does not equal skill. They're also reassured because there's an experienced person near them, always, and they can always see the middle person (who kind of hangs in limbo: he is always within sight of both the lead group and the rear group, even though those groups may not be in sight of one another) and don't feel abandoned. And, with the switching places, it all feels like we're just getting to know one another rather than having them feel like they're being "herded."

I don't think I said all that very well; you really need to see Andy lead a trip to appreciate the attention to detail work.

That attention to detail really pays off; it's a gentle way of getting them into the rhythm of a hike.

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#176386 - 04/11/13 03:10 PM Re: Trip Leader Best Practices [Re: BrianLe]
BarryP Offline
member

Registered: 03/04/04
Posts: 1574
Loc: Eastern Idaho
“As mentioned before, have a front and rear "leader". ”

-another aye

- Also, in a group, you become a popular leader when you have a pocket full of 30 ibuprofens. I prefer individually packaged to keep the environmental influences out.

- Keep your slowest guy up front. You’ll travel farther and safer as a group that way. Yes, there will be some kids itching to double the speed but there are several tactics to handle those types…

-Barry
-The Rockies and Illinois bogs were made for Tevas

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#176771 - 04/27/13 12:31 PM Re: Trip Leader Best Practices [Re: BrianLe]
BrianLe Offline
member

Registered: 02/26/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Washington State, King County
I thought of another one today:

Get everyone started on trail at the same time:

Sometimes in a group there will be one or two people who are particularly slow to get started in the morning, so that the rest of the group is left waiting around (sometimes in cold and/or rainy conditions with their tents and sleeping bags already packed up). A suggestion here is that rather than agree as a group on a particular time to wake up in the morning, agree instead on a particular time to get started walking on the trail. That way, everyone can decide for themselves when to wake up. In this context, if a person is significantly late, just ask them to set their alarm clock a bit earlier.

What’s a good alarm clock? Many people carry a watch with an alarm function, and might even know how to use that function (!). But many (most?) watch alarms aren’t very loud, so a good idea to keep it near to your head at night. Better, perhaps is an alarm clock smartphone app. These are available for free, and can start out at low volume, increasing the volume gradually, so as not to jar the person or annoy others. If neither of those options work for your laggard, poll the group to find out who wakes the earliest and ask them to wake this person the next morning.

Note that as leader you could also ask people to bring some sort of “alarm clock” function with them, and this is a particularly good thing to do if you anticipate very hot weather --- a really good idea in such conditions is to wake up a little before dawn, eat and pack up using headlamps, and start hiking as soon as it’s light enough to see the trail a few feet ahead of you. That way, you maximize use of the cool morning weather.
_________________________
Brian Lewis
http://postholer.com/brianle

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#176772 - 04/27/13 02:14 PM Re: Trip Leader Best Practices [Re: Gershon]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2865
Loc: California
I am not fond of "rules" as such. Leadership is about judgement. Nothing wrong with loop trails or starting a trip going downhill. In fact the latter actually may be better because your pack is heavier at the start and you become stronger as you hike more. As for loops, the leader needs to inform particpants of the plan and set the boundaries - such as we will NOT leave someone on the trail to pick up later. I would not even do this on an in-and-out trail. Once you have formed a group, you have an unwritten "contract" on the goals and individual behaviors.

The hardest part about leading a group is to get the group to see themselves as a cohesive unit, not a bunch of individuals. Those individuals who refuse to be a participating part of the group should hike solo. I make it very clear when I lead a group that their "individualism" has boundaries. They either buy into that or do not participate. It is easier to get people into this mind set on a long trip - say 2+ weeks. They really "get it" when everyone in the group ends up with an occasional "bad trail day" and need help or need the group to slow down. As a leader you can channel each persons skills into something that helps the group. For example, let a few of the hot shots go ahead at the end of the day and find a campsite that is suitable for the group. When they find the site, they then clear off all tent sites, gather water, gather wood if fires are allowed, and have everything ready for the slower ones when they arrive and are tired. On the trail, the hot shots can also carry more group gear or even carry some of the slow person's gear. Everyone then gets to go farther and faster. Hot shot stream crossers can go first and then come back and carry packs of those who are less talented at crossings. And the slow people can "pay back" these kind jestures by being up-beat, helpful, maybe cook meals, do a few more clean-up chores in camp.

Off-trail, the first person who navigates probably walks twice as many steps because they focus on the general line of direction, often having to backtrack, zig-zag around obstacles - sort of the "drunken sailor" route. The second person stays back a ways and is assigned as the "smoother outer" - his job is to refine the route, by finding the more efficient micro-path. The rest of the group then have less work to do. Route finding and navigating off-trail is mentally tiring. The stronger and more qualified need to trade off on this job.

As for those who cannot get their stuff together in time, how about a little help from others instead of waiting at your packs tapping your foot?

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#176797 - 04/30/13 09:58 AM Re: Trip Leader Best Practices [Re: wandering_daisy]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
Originally Posted By wandering_daisy


As for those who cannot get their stuff together in time, how about a little help from others instead of waiting at your packs tapping your foot?


I backpacked with a gal who resisted the help offered almost to the point of hitting someone. She wanted to obsessively fold her tent *just so*...

Pacing is another subtle skill of backpacking. The less backpacking someone has done, the longer it takes them to get on the trail in the morning. I usually plan to stand around if I'm with beginners. Last weekend was no exception. I followed my routine of putting everything away as I got up and collapsing my tent before breakfast, then packing as I finished up my coffee. Was standing there watching other people eat breakfast chatting for a while. One of them asked about how quickly I packed - I said "we wanted an early start, I wasn't going to be an impediment. Plus, that's just the routine for me." That kicked the slowest poke to take down his tent.
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#176801 - 04/30/13 02:50 PM Re: Trip Leader Best Practices [Re: BrianLe]
Rick_D Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 2939
Loc: NorCal
Pro tip: Above all else, do not anger the Sherpas. Just don't.

Sherpas attack three Everest climbers

Good times.
_________________________
--Rick

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#179470 - 08/27/13 05:23 PM Re: Trip Leader Best Practices [Re: BrianLe]
Bill Tarkuli Offline
newbie

Registered: 08/27/13
Posts: 2
This is a great thread. I'm with what everyone has said so far.

I just started looking for a forum for leaders to rant, compare notes and seek advice. There aren't many leaders - it's not easy.

I've been hiking for a number of decades and leading hikes for a couple decades. Mostly I've led hikes for experienced or at least those who sort of know the drill. Makes leading quite a bit easier.

This year I accidentally stumbled into leading day hike groups of relative newbies - lots of enthusiasm and strength, but not much else. My objectives are a) for everyone to be safe, b) everyone to be accountable to themselves, c) return with a smile on your face and d) learn a thing or two.

Experienced hikers don't really give themselves credit for how much they know. I didn't, until I started talking with newbies and realized just how ignorant many are. They don't read instructions, books or disclaimers (a growing problem). So I've decided that a) good screening and b) experiential learning are key. Being sensitive to the skills and knowledge of the group is key. Discussions happen all day long. I like to "mingle", chatting with each hiker when the time permits - sometimes on the trail, sometimes at rest.

I tell them a few things about nature, about equipment, the mountains, animals, preparation, whatever I think would be appropriate. Since I like to explore, I do a little homework ahead of time and have a story or two to tell. I told a story about how this was the site of the last large fire, spurring the creation of a national forest; I point out old lumbering railroad ties, and tie it back to the dates and how things were clear-cut.

There's a lot more to do and see than just get to the top and get exercise. Many have commented on how I made the trip way more interesting and enjoyable. It opens their eyes to many possibilities.

I'm not a gear nazi. Rather than advise a woman who was getting weary and stumbling that she might consider poles, I just gave her mine.

The biggest equipment discussion we often have is about boots. Second is clothing. I stay away from name-brand discussions - it becomes religious. If we don't get these basics right, we don't come back with a smile on our face.

Knowing when to shut up is another important leadership skill. I want everyone to have a great day; no need to preach at them.


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#179479 - 08/28/13 11:15 AM Re: Trip Leader Best Practices [Re: Bill Tarkuli]
BrianLe Offline
member

Registered: 02/26/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Washington State, King County
Great thoughts, Bill. One way that I've made my life easier as a trip leader is to not lead beginner trips, but rather multi-day trips with some descriptive text that tends to scare off those that aren't prepared and in decent shape --- to include a lot of pre-signup expectation setting stuff. Doesn't eliminate all problems, but it greatly reduces them.

My hat's off to those that choose to lead beginner trips --- we really need those type of trip leaders, and I guiltily feel that I ought to step up and do one or two next year just to do my share. Maybe!
_________________________
Brian Lewis
http://postholer.com/brianle

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#179480 - 08/28/13 12:17 PM Re: Trip Leader Best Practices [Re: BrianLe]
DTape Offline
member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 666
Loc: Upstate NY
I organize one or two beginner trips for my local meetup group each year. I think it is important if it will be a beginner trip to actual make it one. What we experienced floks think of as easy and beginner is often well above real beginner level. I make sure the trips are easy, almost too easy. Many carry too much stuff as expected. But a 3 mile hike in will allow them to realize the benefit of a lighter pack without making the trip dangerous because they brought a giant flashlight with a spare lantern battery. The season is chosen so that a damp hoody will suffice as insulation but they will see others faring better with non-cotton. Etc...

Any issues that arise will not be remotely life threatening as the trip is just a step above car camping in difficulty. They are just wading into the water on these trips. They need to have fun and will eventually make it into the deep end if we don't toss 'em there and then rescue them.
_________________________
http://ducttapeadk.blogspot.com

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#179482 - 08/28/13 04:09 PM Re: Trip Leader Best Practices [Re: DTape]
Glenn Roberts Online   content
Moderator

Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 2208
Loc: Southwest Ohio
Great point. The idea is to get them hooked on the pastime, not to make them experts overnight (pardon the pun.)

Another thing that I've found with beginner trips is that you might want to use co-leaders (formally or informally), or at least include a good ratio of experienced folks with the right attitudes. This not only lets you split groups into faster and slower, younger and older, etc., sub-groups, it also gives all the newcomers lots of chances to talk to someone and to get a close look at the gear they use. Twelve people trying to talk to a single leader, or elbowing one another to get a better look as he packs or unpacks, can get intense.

I'm friends with a guy who leads such beginners trips locally. While there is never any doubt he is in charge, we've worked it out that I'll function as an unofficial assistant. At breaks, while he's teaching a brief lesson about LNT, I'll be watching people for signs of chilling, or blisters, etc., and deal with those problems. If the group spreads out on the trail, I'll drop back so we've always got everyone in view - that kind of thing. He also tries to get the ratio of beginners to experienced folks to about 2 to 1, to increase opportunities for interaction. And, he makes sure the experienced folk are the right personalities: outgoing, generally friendly and approachable, and the kind who do like Bill mentioned: "Here, why don't you use my poles for a while, and see how you like them." or "Well, there are several ways to do this; I prefer this one, but if you don't, that's OK." Those kinds of attitudes.

Getting the mix right, underestimating abilities, and holding mileage down seem to be keys here.

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#179484 - 08/28/13 06:43 PM Re: Trip Leader Best Practices [Re: Glenn Roberts]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3983
Loc: Bend, Oregon
You guys seem to have sophisticated beginners smile

The guys who I might currently camp with, are neighbors who camp out in the lava flow in Newberry Monument behind us. One has a sleeping bag, the other has a bivy sack and a pack and a big knife.
Jim thanks
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#179805 - 09/21/13 11:09 AM Re: Trip Leader Best Practices [Re: BrianLe]
spwhite24 Offline
member

Registered: 03/11/11
Posts: 20
Loc: Bucyrus, OH. USA
This is a great thread. A lot of great information. My groups usually include friends and family including children and teenagers. Reading the posts here has really given me some things to think about.
Thanks

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#179807 - 09/21/13 01:58 PM Re: Trip Leader Best Practices [Re: spwhite24]
balzaccom Offline
member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 2232
Loc: Napa, CA
I loved Daisy's comments about getting the group to work together--that's a key for us as well. The faster you are on the trail, the more we'll ask you to carry the next day. It makes for a better trip. And yes, we practice this when it is just the two of us!

One think I don't see mentioned is that it helps to have one leader who is female. For all the good notes here about asking how people are feeling making sure that everyone is having fun, there are still some people (both male and female) who will open up to a woman in ways that they won't talk to a man--even a nice man like me!

Those quiet conversations off to the side of the trail can really make a difference about how things work!

_________________________
Check our our website: http://www.backpackthesierra.com/

Or just read a good mystery novel set in the Sierra; https://www.amazon.com/Danger-Falling-Rocks-Paul-Wagner/dp/0984884963

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