Im looking for more info on what I can carry in to a NP and how to carry it? I will never carry bear spray... Never known any one (personally) that has been attacked when carrying a gun and know of 2 that have been almost killed carrying the spray, ALL of them in Alaska. Im not hear to debate that part. I'm looking to see if I can open carry or does it have to be concealed? can I carry a rifle or is the law limited to Hand guns only. I want to carry a 7mm MAG.. but I have 45 LC I can carry If Im limited to hand guns

I don't think they specify what to carry - they do allow you to carry. They don't want you to fire it, however.

And you are still subject to the state laws, so if you are in a California national park, good luck with that. (You don't need a gun in California, at all, ever, by the way.)

The rules are that if you can carry legally in that state (remember that a lot of states don't honor concealed carry permits from other states and issue permits only to state residents), you can carry a gun in a national park. It is, however, illegal to fire a gun in a national park! In other words, why bother--any weapon that will stop a bear is heavy! I haven't yet heard if the recent incident in Olympic National Park, in which a hiker broke a leg and was found only after he fired several shots to alert searchers, will result in the hiker's being prosecuted (I hope not!).

The literature states exactly the opposite of what you claim--bear spray is actually more effective than a firearm. Nothing, of course, is 100% effective against an angry bear. Here's one article. Here's another one. It takes an extremely well-aimed shot with an extra-heavy caliber weapon to down a charging bear. Few people can shoot that well! There have been a considerable number of fatalities of folks who shot and only wounded a bear. A wounded bear is an extremely angry bear!

Have zero plans for EVER going to Cali... I thought Iraq was better! lol so no problems there

I to have seen many articles written that say beer spay is better than a gun. and Its been countered in many articles that the guns used in most of those Incidents where undersized. I won't carry anything smaller than a 357 mag and even that thats to small in my mind.

I base my preferences on real world experience and experiences of those that I know.

So far I've had 5 friends that have been attacked by bears, All Grizzlies, and ALL in Alaska. 2 of them used beer spray... they are now both disfigured and handicap. the bear spray was totally ineffective and failed to stop the bear. in both chases it clamped down on their hand/arm and one of them is missing an ear....

The other 3 carried firearms. 45LC and a two 45mag.... All three of them dropped their attackers in 1 shot..... No injuries.

I will NEVER carry bear spray an no amount of articles written by gun controls nuts will convince me to carry bear spray.

I have no intention of carrying a gun into a NP just to shoot it off. If I shoot it its to kill an attacker no plink into a tree. I've been in combat and I don't pull my gun out unless I have a target and plan to drop it. It should also be noted that even if a bear is near I still wouldn't shoot it. I know that prevention is best way to prevent a bear attack. But having friends attacked I will always carry protection.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that I was going to use my gun to call for help....? I carry a HAM radio and a SPOT tracker for that.

The only states that do not honor my CC Permit are CA, NV, OR, WA, MN, OH, WV, VA, SC, NY, ME, NJ, CT, RI, MA, MD, NY and HI. None of which I plan on going to to expect maybe OR, and WA.

Now that that is out of the way I want to reiterate my original post... just look for the rules on open carry verse concealed

Your loss. The backpacking is so awesome it will take the rest of my life to do it all.

Hahah Im sure. but the same can be said for CO, UT, WY, ID, NM, AZ, MT, AK and Lets not forget Canada! All the places on my togo list.

I spent 2 months in Cali and vowed never to return....

I've heard that a lot from people who never really see what I consider the "real California."

Granite and golden trout. You never look back.

I've been to CO, WY, UT, NM, AZ... maybe I'll go again some day. Nice enough places to visit. But California is home and it'll stay that way.

That much I can understand!

To return to OP's question. It will vary with the park or the section of the park (for those parks that cross state boundaries). It is best to check the web site for the particular park in which you are interested. The general rule is that there is no general rule.....

Here ya go.

Cheers,

Apparently the rules have changed a little starting Sept. 2nd.

Yellowstone rules

They allow you to carry both sidearm and rifle in Yellowstone. But you can't take them everywhere apparently.

Something else you might want to check out This . I found this last year and after going through most of it was pretty impressed on the amassed information. Don't let the title fool you, the document goes through current knowledge of bear behavior, how to respond, and because it is a management of resource guide it shows target areas for the side and FRONT of bears when hunting a problem bear.

either an old picture or just meant has a no hunting sign.

I found this line on the Yosemite National Park Webpage....

The possession, use, or discharge of pepper spray (including bear spray), pellet guns, and BB guns in Yosemite National Park is prohibited.

According to their web site its ONLY legal to have a gun, not a spray... odd

I really want to see the courts convict a person for firing either a gun or spray in a life threatening situation.

The only target area that will drop a bear on the spot its the head.

for all the opponents of guns the only people I'm going to trust are those that deal with bears more than once a life time....

Found this article that puts a much diff...le gun vs spray

You are mistaken if you think that only "anti gun" people prefer bear spray to guns.

I spent much of my post Army career working in the field of forestry. The nature of forestry work requires a lot of outdoor time and in the west that means that you are often in the company of bears.

Agencies that employ forestry field workers are naturally concerned that their people work in as safe an environment as possible. For this reason, most land management agencies have conducted research into the best ways to fend off bears, both black and grizzly. The result of the research has consistently shown that bear spray is more effective against bears of all kinds than are firearms when it comes to preventing injury. For one reason, guns require much more training for effective use than does bear spray; another reason is that having armed technicians and foresters in the field is a potential danger to other workers and is also a distraction from the work at hand.

Many agencies have worker training programs designed to minimize unfavorable bear/worker outcomes. British Columbia has one of the better programs. Check it out here http://www2.worksafebc.com/PDFs/petroleum/worker_training_bears.pdf Personally, I would be quite wary of any advice on dealing with bears that comes either from hunting magazines or from the NRA. Very little of their opinion is based on science and they tend to have a bit of an understandable bias towards guns.

Personally, I don't feel the need of either bear spray or armament. I have been hiking, backpacking, climbing, hunting and fishing for well over 60 years. For about 40 years I spent at least 100 days professionally per year in the field. I have worked in Alaska, Yukon, Northwest Territories, and most of the western lower 48 states. Have I encountered bears? Yes,and occasionally they were aggressive, at least to the extent of bluff charging. In none of these encounters would a firearm or bear spray have improved anything and in my opinion use of either could have made the situation worse either for me or the bear. Personally, I prefer the proven bear avoidance techniques to the more "mechanical" methods.

Here in the Great Smoky Mountain National Park they allow conceal handguns. My dad has a conceal license to carry here in Tennessee and I'm thinking of taking the class just for fun. If I carried in the Smokies, it will be a small 9mm. It won't stop a bear, but I'm hoping firing the gun into the air will scare it off. Assume in this situation the bear is popping his jaw at me, bluff charge, etc. I wouldn't fire the gun off if the bear ignored me and went back to munching on the berries. I would just simply keep going about my business peacefully. On the other hand, scaring off a black bear the old fashion way has been working for me and there only been one bear attack that resulted in death in the last 12 years within the GSMNP boundary. There has been a couple attacks that resulted in injury, but the average is less than one a year. Keep in mind the GSMNP gets 6 millions visitors a year!!!!!!!

I agree that prevention is the only true way to stop a bear attack. I also agree with you 100% that if you are not trained in the use of a firearm and 100% willing to pull the trigger then they are not for you.

No offense buddy but thats the worst idea. Never count on a gun to scare an animal away sometimes. Not only that but its illegal to do so. I Didn't even think there where any bears in the smokeys.

Firing a gun should ONLY be done if you plan on killing something. Take you class very seriously. don't do it just for fun.

Just curious DT, did you even read any of the article? You don't have to agree with it, but going through it was interesting I thought. The part I thought most interesting was bear behavior.

Hitting the head will not always drop the bear on the spot. I personally do not hunt bear, but have befriended many who do. One such group hunted grizzly in Montana with sidearms. These guys were drooling for tags. The side kill zone is obvious to any who hunt, and the frontal kill zone in the article seemed to match what they told me was the kill zone for them. But bullets can bounce off their heads at times. Also, some friends who hunt with rifles have hit the target square in the head only to have the brown bear travel almost 13 miles before it dropped. From everything I have heard, one shot is all you will likely get. This is all from people I would trust with my life. I have personally hunted deer and elk, but now only game birds with my avitar.

Also from what I have heard, brown bears usually know when someone is hunting them. That might make a big difference in their behavior, being hunted vs an encounter with a human. What experience I have with them lets me know that they are smart.

Fair point. Supposedly there are two bears per square miles in the Smokies. Every backcountry site has a steel bear cable to hang up your food and odor things. Last summer I was 10 yards away from a 300 pound bear. Fortunately, I was with a couple people and we all made noisy, threw rocks near it (didn't hit him), etc and he eventually ran off. The fact he didn't run off immediately had me freak out! This was at a shelter too and the next morning we began our ascend to the second highest peak in the Smokies and there were fresh bear scats. That bear hangs around that shelter!!! Since then, I've backpacked and dayhiked a few times and haven't had a encounter. I did see tracks and scats, but no flesh.

To get back on topic, I do have a shotgun I use for duck hunting and my dad carries, but it never cross my mind that I need one for backpacking other than the random erroneous thought I previously posted above. I have heard stories out west that wolves can be aggressive in the winter months, but out here I've never seen any in the wild, just tracks. Bears are only major animal I have to be super cautious about and I have better chances of getting hurt walking than an aggressive encounter.

I was reading it as I posted it.

I've personally been rushed before in combat and I can tell you can get more than one round off. And if your using the right ammo. HP or BT it will expand and destroy the internals.

I've been maced before for training and the second time is not as bad as the first. So lets say you encounter a bear that has been maced before. 20$ says its going to care less about the spray this time.

In it boils down to personal preference and what you feel comfortable with. Personally I like my hand guns not to have safeties. I can shoot from the hip and continue to fire all the way to a standard frontal fire position. I spend at least one day a week training in a firing range and Im not a fallow shot by any means. Thats why I will recommend Spray to any one who is not 100% comfortable with a gun.

Guns that can kill a bear, HAM radio. Your pack must be heavy! I have no doubt you are well trained in handling a gun and shooting it off appropriately. I think each area should be considered separately. If you go to Alaska, then by all means the gun may be appropriate. Most other places in continental USA the gun (and HAM radio) are overkill (no pun intended). I am sort of a geek - I look at numbers - statistically the chance of getting hurt by a bear in most USA wilderness areas is really small. I just am not willing to add all that weight to my pack when the statistical odds are so low. I have run into bears a LOT. On one trip I ran into 8 bears in 3 days. I am reluctant to even carry bear spray. I carried the spray this summer because everyone recommended it - never even saw a bear - big waste of $$ and added weight to my pack. I have yet been talked into carrying SPOT. If I wanted 100% security I would not backpack at all.

From the way you are posting (if I am wrong, sorry) it sounds like you are viewing the wilderness experience as advisarial - man vs bears, need for instant communicantions. I just do not see it that way.

As for rules, it seems a lot like the medical marijuana law here in California - state allows, feds do not - lots of inconsitencies and confusion. Since the gun issue is not the same in all locations, I would get the information from the horses mouth - talk to local law enforcement. Lots of stuff you dig up in the internet is not correct.

Wandering Daisy, I heard there are more brown bear attacks in Yellowstone and the lower 48 than in Alaska. Simply because there more brown bear in Yellowstone and Yosemite than in Denali. This was in a Backpacker's issue last year.

ETSU, no brown bears except on the flag in Yosemite. Think the last one in Cali was shot in 1916 or so.

Yeah many call me gear heavy. And Im ok with that. Im working to lighten my load of things like then, bag, cookwear... the radio i take because I never hike alone and often end up with people that are either fast or slow. so I give each of them a small FRS radio. My ham radio acts like a repeater and is good for 5watts where the small FRS radios are only good for 0.5watts. My radio weighs in at 8.5 oz

I don't like the ultra light minimalist attitude because I've plucked to many under prepared backpackers out of the mountains. My pack weight including all my "extras" are about 35lbs max I hip carry my handgun, and the radio is also fun for making contacts from mtn tops. You would have to be a HAM to understand that part. and its not the huge table top radio you may be thinking

You may not see it that way but I also tend to head out despite the conditions. The worse the weather the more excited I get!

Fare enough DT, but I am not telling you to not carry a weapon, just to keep learning and try to have an open mind prior to making a decision. Which you may or may not be doing...I can't tell via the Internet. There is at least one good study that strongly suggests that most would be better served by pepper spray, and none that say the opposite (for example the BYU study in Journal of Wildlife Managment 2008. Which I posted a link to about a year ago on this site). But most people haven't slept with their weapon.

There are only black bears in my area. I've seen them on a few different occasions and have never felt threatened. The ones that have caught sight of me have turned and walked (or scurried) off.

I view a firearm as a piece of emergency gear like any other - something that I hope I never have to use. When I'm going solo I carry, when I'm in a group I generally don't.

08.21.12 Interpret at will.

I think carrying is a good idea. The predators aren't always bears. As to being illegal to FIRE it in the park, I'd rather fire it in a life threatening situation and still be alive, than be dead and have obeyed the restriction.

In 2008 (most recent year's data I could find) the National Park Service reported 3,760 reported major crimes, including five homicides and 37 rapes.

According to an ABC article on the law change "Guns are now allowed in all but about 20 of the 392 locations the National Park Service governs, including Yellowstone, Yosemite, the Grand Canyon, Great Smoky Mountains and Rocky Mountain National Park. Firearms will be prohibited in visitors' centers and park rangers' offices because of a separate law banning guns in buildings where federal employees work."

Check this link out for some great info on carrying in National Parks, National Forests, and State Parks - especially questions 6-8: http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/FAQ.pdf

This might interest you as well - a bear charged two hikers and was stopped with a .45: http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com/201...nd-preserve5943

What you're really saying is National Park crime rates are vanishingly small, calculated against recreation visits. National Park Service, 2010:

All units--281,303,769
National parks--64,623,855

Perhaps a new slogan is in order: "Your National Parks--safer than any suburb could dream of being."

And as all backpackers know, the farther away from the parking lot you get, the safer you become. First rule of lightweight backpacking: items left at home are the easiest way to lighten your pack.

Cheers,

The no discharge a firearm is a very ambiguous term/rule. You will never get arrested for firing your weapon to defend your self. They just don't want people turning NP into their own firing ranges.

I dont carry to protect my self from other people in the park... I think that only happens in the movies. haha

But really when Im back country the last thing I worry about is being robed for my sleeping bag and the 50$ i carry with me.... lol

if that was suppose to be funny it wasn't

I honestly would hope that a trained soldier. That is the range weakly would know enough about gun laws and bi-laws that he could do some simple research"Think Google" that he wouldn't trouble a bunch of backpacking hippies with the debate!

Which this is not a question as posted.

If you feel comfy carrying and it legal then do it.

It's usually the guys with the 35lb packs + 6 lbs of cold steal strapd to there hip that usually ask a barefoot hammock sleeping hippie like me how do you walk so far.

H.Y.O.H

Ok by no means am I trying to make lite of your friends situations. And I sincerely feel for them. But where did you meet these people in a support group for grizzly victims.

Other wise you might just want to stay out of the woods because with statistics like that. the odds are not in your favor.

I'm just sayin I've met a whole whole lot of outdoors type people soldiers, hunters ,anglers, hammers, back packers the list goes on and on and a lot of the carried fire arms a lot didnt.

Luckily none attacked by bears of any sort.

Wow that was a little rude!

I don't know what weapons you've looked at by my HEAVIEST handgun a 44 mag, 6 shooter, long barrel is 3.3 lbs. Also, as of today I've dropped my pack weight below 30 lbs, Shaved off with a new mat and bag.

Also, I love bare foot walking hippies, they give us something to laugh at when we are plucking them out of the forest in a $40M army helicopter because they are lost and out of food like we did 3 times last summer Not to mention the use of the $45M AH-64 gunship that used its FLIR to locate the nut cases so by all mean continue to walk barefoot with minimal gear and I will continue to rescue you when you get lost, hurt, or caught in a bad spring snow storm. To each his own, right?

I posted this topic on here because of the huge discrepancy ( big word for an army guy i know, I googled it! ) between laws governing carrying in NPs. One site says one while another may say some thing totally different. Even the park web pages can't totally agree. I figured I would ask a group of people that spend time in the park and more than just one park like a park ranger, I've asked them and each time get a different answer.

Two of them are anglers from WY and the rest are just people that I lived with in AK. If you lived in AK you quickly learn that bear attacks are a lot more common then are reported. Thats why the articles about bear spray being more effective are so unbalanced. They don't account for all the attacks that are never reported because the bear is defeated. Only when a gun doesn't work is it reported.

I saw a article earlier this year that said there were 290 bear attacks a year in Alaska... we all laughed... We were willing to bet that there are 290 bear attacks a month!

Bears come out of the forest surrounding the foothill communities in LA regularly. There was one tonight on the news, being chased around by the sheriffs and animal control. plus a helicopter. Other than jumping into a swimming pool for a couple of minutes, he or she just wandered around the neighborhood then disappeared back into the woods. That is as close as most people will come to a bear here in CA.

There are two ways to see a bear in CA. Go to Yosemite/SEKI, or go to LA. The rest of the time you see (at most) the hind end of the critter as he beats it for the next ridge/into the trees.

Most of the coastal range has no bears at all south of SF. North of it there are occasional sitings. Bear cans are required for the very wild and remote Lost Coast.

I am encouraged to carry by the sheriff's office, not because of bears, but because our searches sometimes cross low elevation areas where marijuana gardens are. Plus, we do occasionally look for people who don't want to be found. I haven't bothered - most of the times our teams have a deputy attached to them with his mace, gun, etc and volunteer searchers are mandated to stay out of the way.

The rest of the time - FORGET IT. Guns are wasted weight. I'm not a hunter but I grew up in that culture. I'm entirely pragmatic about things. If I'm going to use it I'll carry it. I'd never use either a gun or bear spray anywhere in California. Last thing I'd bother with. Much more important to pay attention to the real killers - water and rocks.

I have lived in Fairbanks for 8 years. I have not seen a bear yet - which in my OPINION means I'm doing something right. Now other parts of the state have more bears (Kodiak etc,) but I do see scat. However, I'm still more scared of moose.

I do carry (a BEAST - Ruger GP 100 - .357 - if I run out of ammo I can then use it as a heavy blunt instrument), but I don't carry because of bears, Alaska has one of the highest violent crimes against women numbers and I like to hike alone. I do try to avoid times when bears are more aggressive - spring, when they just come out of "hibernation" and the fall when they are trying to fatten up. I have learned that certain areas in Alaska have less protein available (such as Denali) and I avoid those particularly in the fall (we don't hunt, I don't have the freezer space). I do believe hunters come in more "contact" - both critters are hunting and hunters are being quiet and surprising bears that might otherwise avoid humans.

I don't carry bear spray because of the short distance involved and the possibility of wind pushing it back at me. We own some and have done test scenarios, but I don't feel comfortable with it.

I was just thinking of Heather while I was reading this. I have only carried in Montana while I was working as a geologist there, 44 mag. I have never been to Alaska, much to my dismay.

My interest in this topic is the 290 attacks per year or month. From what I have seen in the newspaper articles, the most cited study is that BYU study from 2008. Even the 290 attacks a YEAR could put the statistical results at risk. In other words, the study would be bull. How do they keep track of this stuff in ALaska? It is a big enough place I could see people blowing off reporting it. Don't get me wrong on this, I would just like to know what IS an accurate attack rate estimate. In my mind, everything else drops out from this.

What do the people FROM Alaska think?

First off , Let me apologize DT I ment no disrespect or to come off as rude. I simply ment to be direct. To answer your original question the NP web site has a pdf whith I believe what your looking for that can be found here.

http://www.nps.gov/yell/parkmgmt/upload/gunsinparks_IMR_2-2010.pdf

Like I said my original post formats where bad and I apoligize. I have the utmost respect for what you do. And for you as an individual!

Unless I was physically damaged in some way, I wouldn't know who to report something to. I might call the rangers station if I was bluff charged on a well known trail - say Angel Rocks, or the Granite Tors (local "high" traffic areas.) I guess if I was in the bush, what would be the point of reporting it? And what defines an attack? A bluff charge? A bear eating your plane? (yeah it happens - you don't keep food in planes!!! or cars for that matter) How about trying to tear the door off your cabin? (regularly happens according to the people I know that have cabins in the bush.) I define an attack as physical contact - bear knocks you down, or you shoot bear OR being stalked (something up here that happens mostly with blacks.) I don't think there are that many physical contacts with bears - but I do think there is a lot of "interaction" with them.

Did that make sense?

It might surprise people to know the same thing happens in Tallahassee, Florida. About once every year or two a habituated bear makes the local paper for its antics in town. South of town a small bear knocked a bicyclist over on a paved bike path about 2 years ago. It is believed the bear didn't intend to charge; it just wasn't paying attention. I don't know how they know that.

I've only met bears twice in the woods. Once while hiking along the AT along the TN/NC border. Another time in AK while walking a trail in the McCarthy-Kennicot area. Both times the bear looked right at me (within 50 yards I might add) and sauntered back into the woods. When I was a kid I once saw a polar bear in Churchhill, MB but that was near the town dump and we were trying to spot a bear.

To answer the OP's question, I only go into the National Forest (south of Tallahassee) during the winter when it is nice to hike. I invariably see hunters carrying rifles. I have never noticed a handgun. I'm not commenting on their legality, just saying I haven't seen one.

That definitely made sense Heather. My memory of the number of incidents or attacks they had in the data base is something like 6 or 7 hundred. That's less than 4 years worth if the 290 a year number is reasonable...you see where I'm going with this. Just from an analysis standpoint it makes huge difference. I'll have to see if I can get a copy of the article free somewhere rather than just the abstract so I can look at the methodology used for sifting data.

We saw quite a few bears as a family in the 60's and 70's. Our first time to the Southern Sierra, I was 10 and my sister was 8, is packed with memories of my dad dealing with a black bear who had apparently been fed by a girl scout troupe a few
days prior to us arriving (this according to the ranger stationed at bear paw meadow). I was shown by my dad the next day the marks on the ground left by the bear as he watched us all night from a high spot a short distance away. Because of us kids, I don't think dad slept at all that night. I learned a lot that trip.

Well according to this article I'm safe aslong as I make one one of the other TWO guys carry the gun. Maybe I could convince the second in to carrying the spray.

Me ill be carrying the fly rod as I'm sure we will make good use of that!

http://www.alaska-bear-viewing.net/bear_attacks.htm

in all serious though if I every make it out to AK for some fly fishing. You better believe one of us will be packing.

I'd suppose I'd just tend to stay away from where the bears are fishing. I'd just kind of figure they have rights and are strict about not being infringed upon.

It's kind of like deer season here. It sucks because those two weeks are prime time for backpacking, but I don't go then. I let the hunters alone, it's their time and place, they have rights and they own them.

I found this interesting in the link you provided:

"As i am not aware of any bear attacks on a group of 3 or more ever in the state of Alaska. 94% of the time it is a single individual either jogging-biking or hunting and they startle a bear and they are attacked."

That's profound, and it's no accident or statistical anomaly either. Those bears know when they're outnumbered. That being the case, I might want to travel with at least two buddies and make it point to stay close together.

And this:

"As many Bear viewing guides in the state know bears often don´t even look up as they walk the well worn paths of rivers and lakes."

People tend to hike like that too, and it would suck to run head on into a bear that was doing it.

There was that recent event of a NOLS group apparently surprising a bear in AK which made national news. But I think in general that statement about groups of 3 or 4 being less likely to draw an attack from a bear seem valid, possibly because of the noise or smell. My wife and I want to go to the Canadian Rockies next summer and it is suggested to go out in groups of at least when hiking. We will be alone on our 25th anniversary so I am not sure how we are going to do this at this point in time.

Bill, I think you hit the mark when you point out how most people have their head down when hiking and are just focused on getting somewhere. Bound to be some collisions if you are not making noise and not really focused on what is going on around you.

I feel pretty confident around black bears and mountain lion. But my experience with griz is jammed into a 4 month period that was about 30 years ago. And my wife is freaked about any predators, so I think I will do something I have never done before. Hire a guide in the Canadian Rockies. This looks to be pretty easy to do in the lake Louise area. At least the will be three of us then at a minimum, my wife will feel safer, and I'll get to learn some things I normally would not.