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#169289 - 09/11/12 10:25 PM Guns in National Parks - the rules?
DieselTwitch Offline
member

Registered: 07/01/12
Posts: 64
Loc: Colorado
Im looking for more info on what I can carry in to a NP and how to carry it? I will never carry bear spray... Never known any one (personally) that has been attacked when carrying a gun and know of 2 that have been almost killed carrying the spray, ALL of them in Alaska. Im not hear to debate that part. I'm looking to see if I can open carry or does it have to be concealed? can I carry a rifle or is the law limited to Hand guns only. I want to carry a 7mm MAG.. but I have 45 LC I can carry If Im limited to hand guns

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#169295 - 09/11/12 11:15 PM Re: Guns in National Parks - the rules? [Re: DieselTwitch]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
I don't think they specify what to carry - they do allow you to carry. They don't want you to fire it, however.

And you are still subject to the state laws, so if you are in a California national park, good luck with that. (You don't need a gun in California, at all, ever, by the way.)
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"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

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#169296 - 09/11/12 11:31 PM Re: Guns in National Parks - the rules? [Re: lori]
OregonMouse Online   content
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
The rules are that if you can carry legally in that state (remember that a lot of states don't honor concealed carry permits from other states and issue permits only to state residents), you can carry a gun in a national park. It is, however, illegal to fire a gun in a national park! In other words, why bother--any weapon that will stop a bear is heavy! I haven't yet heard if the recent incident in Olympic National Park, in which a hiker broke a leg and was found only after he fired several shots to alert searchers, will result in the hiker's being prosecuted (I hope not!).

The literature states exactly the opposite of what you claim--bear spray is actually more effective than a firearm. Nothing, of course, is 100% effective against an angry bear. Here's one article. Here's another one. It takes an extremely well-aimed shot with an extra-heavy caliber weapon to down a charging bear. Few people can shoot that well! There have been a considerable number of fatalities of folks who shot and only wounded a bear. A wounded bear is an extremely angry bear!
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

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#169297 - 09/11/12 11:36 PM Re: Guns in National Parks - the rules? [Re: lori]
DieselTwitch Offline
member

Registered: 07/01/12
Posts: 64
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By lori
I don't think they specify what to carry - they do allow you to carry. They don't want you to fire it, however.

And you are still subject to the state laws, so if you are in a California national park, good luck with that. (You don't need a gun in California, at all, ever, by the way.)


Have zero plans for EVER going to Cali... I thought Iraq was better! lol so no problems there

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#169300 - 09/11/12 11:53 PM Re: Guns in National Parks - the rules? [Re: OregonMouse]
DieselTwitch Offline
member

Registered: 07/01/12
Posts: 64
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By OregonMouse
The rules are that if you can carry legally in that state (remember that a lot of states don't honor concealed carry permits from other states and issue permits only to state residents), you can carry a gun in a national park. It is, however, illegal to fire a gun in a national park! In other words, why bother--any weapon that will stop a bear is heavy! I haven't yet heard if the recent incident in Olympic National Park, in which a hiker broke a leg and was found only after he fired several shots to alert searchers, will result in the hiker's being prosecuted (I hope not!).

The literature states exactly the opposite of what you claim--bear spray is actually more effective than a firearm. Nothing, of course, is 100% effective against an angry bear. Here's one article. Here's another one. It takes an extremely well-aimed shot with an extra-heavy caliber weapon to down a charging bear. Few people can shoot that well! There have been a considerable number of fatalities of folks who shot and only wounded a bear. A wounded bear is an extremely angry bear!


I to have seen many articles written that say beer spay is better than a gun. and Its been countered in many articles that the guns used in most of those Incidents where undersized. I won't carry anything smaller than a 357 mag and even that thats to small in my mind.

I base my preferences on real world experience and experiences of those that I know.

So far I've had 5 friends that have been attacked by bears, All Grizzlies, and ALL in Alaska. 2 of them used beer spray... they are now both disfigured and handicap. the bear spray was totally ineffective and failed to stop the bear. in both chases it clamped down on their hand/arm and one of them is missing an ear....

The other 3 carried firearms. 45LC and a two 45mag.... All three of them dropped their attackers in 1 shot..... No injuries.

I will NEVER carry bear spray an no amount of articles written by gun controls nuts will convince me to carry bear spray.

I have no intention of carrying a gun into a NP just to shoot it off. If I shoot it its to kill an attacker no plink into a tree. I've been in combat and I don't pull my gun out unless I have a target and plan to drop it. It should also be noted that even if a bear is near I still wouldn't shoot it. I know that prevention is best way to prevent a bear attack. But having friends attacked I will always carry protection.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that I was going to use my gun to call for help....? I carry a HAM radio and a SPOT tracker for that.

The only states that do not honor my CC Permit are CA, NV, OR, WA, MN, OH, WV, VA, SC, NY, ME, NJ, CT, RI, MA, MD, NY and HI. None of which I plan on going to to expect maybe OR, and WA.

Now that that is out of the way I want to reiterate my original post... just look for the rules on open carry verse concealed


Edited by DieselTwitch (09/11/12 11:54 PM)

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#169304 - 09/12/12 12:06 AM Re: Guns in National Parks - the rules? [Re: DieselTwitch]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
Originally Posted By DieselTwitch
Originally Posted By lori
I don't think they specify what to carry - they do allow you to carry. They don't want you to fire it, however.

And you are still subject to the state laws, so if you are in a California national park, good luck with that. (You don't need a gun in California, at all, ever, by the way.)


Have zero plans for EVER going to Cali... I thought Iraq was better! lol so no problems there


Your loss. The backpacking is so awesome it will take the rest of my life to do it all.
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#169306 - 09/12/12 12:10 AM Re: Guns in National Parks - the rules? [Re: lori]
DieselTwitch Offline
member

Registered: 07/01/12
Posts: 64
Loc: Colorado
Hahah Im sure. but the same can be said for CO, UT, WY, ID, NM, AZ, MT, AK and Lets not forget Canada! smile All the places on my togo list.

I spent 2 months in Cali and vowed never to return....

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#169307 - 09/12/12 12:13 AM Re: Guns in National Parks - the rules? [Re: DieselTwitch]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
I've heard that a lot from people who never really see what I consider the "real California."

Granite and golden trout. You never look back.

I've been to CO, WY, UT, NM, AZ... maybe I'll go again some day. Nice enough places to visit. But California is home and it'll stay that way.
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#169310 - 09/12/12 12:24 AM Re: Guns in National Parks - the rules? [Re: lori]
DieselTwitch Offline
member

Registered: 07/01/12
Posts: 64
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By lori
I've heard that a lot from people who never really see what I consider the "real California."

Granite and golden trout. You never look back.

I've been to CO, WY, UT, NM, AZ... maybe I'll go again some day. Nice enough places to visit. But California is home and it'll stay that way.


That much I can understand! smile

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#169311 - 09/12/12 12:27 AM Re: Guns in National Parks - the rules? [Re: lori]
oldranger Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: California (southern)
To return to OP's question. It will vary with the park or the section of the park (for those parks that cross state boundaries). It is best to check the web site for the particular park in which you are interested. The general rule is that there is no general rule.....

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#169316 - 09/12/12 01:13 AM Re: Guns in National Parks - the rules? [Re: DieselTwitch]
Rick_D Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 2939
Loc: NorCal
Here ya go.

Cheers,


Attachments
_8212927.jpg

Description: PCT Yosemite boundary.


_________________________
--Rick

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#169318 - 09/12/12 08:46 AM Re: Guns in National Parks - the rules? [Re: DieselTwitch]
skcreidc Offline
member

Registered: 08/16/10
Posts: 1590
Loc: San Diego CA
Apparently the rules have changed a little starting Sept. 2nd.

Yellowstone rules

They allow you to carry both sidearm and rifle in Yellowstone. But you can't take them everywhere apparently.

Something else you might want to check out This . I found this last year and after going through most of it was pretty impressed on the amassed information. Don't let the title fool you, the document goes through current knowledge of bear behavior, how to respond, and because it is a management of resource guide it shows target areas for the side and FRONT of bears when hunting a problem bear.


Edited by skcreidc (09/12/12 09:05 AM)

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#169319 - 09/12/12 09:35 AM Re: Guns in National Parks - the rules? [Re: Rick_D]
DieselTwitch Offline
member

Registered: 07/01/12
Posts: 64
Loc: Colorado
either an old picture or just meant has a no hunting sign.

I found this line on the Yosemite National Park Webpage....

The possession, use, or discharge of pepper spray (including bear spray), pellet guns, and BB guns in Yosemite National Park is prohibited.

According to their web site its ONLY legal to have a gun, not a spray... odd

I really want to see the courts convict a person for firing either a gun or spray in a life threatening situation.

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#169321 - 09/12/12 10:09 AM Re: Guns in National Parks - the rules? [Re: skcreidc]
DieselTwitch Offline
member

Registered: 07/01/12
Posts: 64
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By skcreidc
Apparently the rules have changed a little starting Sept. 2nd.

Yellowstone rules

They allow you to carry both sidearm and rifle in Yellowstone. But you can't take them everywhere apparently.

Something else you might want to check out This . I found this last year and after going through most of it was pretty impressed on the amassed information. Don't let the title fool you, the document goes through current knowledge of bear behavior, how to respond, and because it is a management of resource guide it shows target areas for the side and FRONT of bears when hunting a problem bear.


The only target area that will drop a bear on the spot its the head.

for all the opponents of guns the only people I'm going to trust are those that deal with bears more than once a life time....

Found this article that puts a much diff...le gun vs spray

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#169323 - 09/12/12 11:06 AM Re: Guns in National Parks - the rules? [Re: DieselTwitch]
Pika Offline
member

Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 1814
Loc: Rural Southeast Arizona
Quote:
for all the opponents of guns the only people I'm going to trust are those that deal with bears more than once a life time....

You are mistaken if you think that only "anti gun" people prefer bear spray to guns.

I spent much of my post Army career working in the field of forestry. The nature of forestry work requires a lot of outdoor time and in the west that means that you are often in the company of bears.

Agencies that employ forestry field workers are naturally concerned that their people work in as safe an environment as possible. For this reason, most land management agencies have conducted research into the best ways to fend off bears, both black and grizzly. The result of the research has consistently shown that bear spray is more effective against bears of all kinds than are firearms when it comes to preventing injury. For one reason, guns require much more training for effective use than does bear spray; another reason is that having armed technicians and foresters in the field is a potential danger to other workers and is also a distraction from the work at hand.

Many agencies have worker training programs designed to minimize unfavorable bear/worker outcomes. British Columbia has one of the better programs. Check it out here http://www2.worksafebc.com/PDFs/petroleum/worker_training_bears.pdf Personally, I would be quite wary of any advice on dealing with bears that comes either from hunting magazines or from the NRA. Very little of their opinion is based on science and they tend to have a bit of an understandable bias towards guns.

Personally, I don't feel the need of either bear spray or armament. I have been hiking, backpacking, climbing, hunting and fishing for well over 60 years. For about 40 years I spent at least 100 days professionally per year in the field. I have worked in Alaska, Yukon, Northwest Territories, and most of the western lower 48 states. Have I encountered bears? Yes,and occasionally they were aggressive, at least to the extent of bluff charging. In none of these encounters would a firearm or bear spray have improved anything and in my opinion use of either could have made the situation worse either for me or the bear. Personally, I prefer the proven bear avoidance techniques to the more "mechanical" methods.
_________________________
May I walk in beauty.

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#169324 - 09/12/12 11:18 AM Re: Guns in National Parks - the rules? [Re: Pika]
ETSU Pride Offline
member

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 933
Loc: Knoxville, TN
Here in the Great Smoky Mountain National Park they allow conceal handguns. My dad has a conceal license to carry here in Tennessee and I'm thinking of taking the class just for fun. If I carried in the Smokies, it will be a small 9mm. It won't stop a bear, but I'm hoping firing the gun into the air will scare it off. Assume in this situation the bear is popping his jaw at me, bluff charge, etc. I wouldn't fire the gun off if the bear ignored me and went back to munching on the berries. I would just simply keep going about my business peacefully. On the other hand, scaring off a black bear the old fashion way has been working for me and there only been one bear attack that resulted in death in the last 12 years within the GSMNP boundary. There has been a couple attacks that resulted in injury, but the average is less than one a year. Keep in mind the GSMNP gets 6 millions visitors a year!!!!!!!
_________________________
It is one of the blessings of wilderness life that it shows us how few things we need in order to be perfectly happy.-- Horace Kephart

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#169325 - 09/12/12 11:33 AM Re: Guns in National Parks - the rules? [Re: Pika]
DieselTwitch Offline
member

Registered: 07/01/12
Posts: 64
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By Pika
[quote]

Personally, I don't feel the need of either bear spray or armament. I have been hiking, backpacking, climbing, hunting and fishing for well over 60 years. For about 40 years I spent at least 100 days professionally per year in the field. I have worked in Alaska, Yukon, Northwest Territories, and most of the western lower 48 states. Have I encountered bears? Yes,and occasionally they were aggressive, at least to the extent of bluff charging. In none of these encounters would a firearm or bear spray have improved anything and in my opinion use of either could have made the situation worse either for me or the bear. Personally, I prefer the proven bear avoidance techniques to the more "mechanical" methods.


I agree that prevention is the only true way to stop a bear attack. I also agree with you 100% that if you are not trained in the use of a firearm and 100% willing to pull the trigger then they are not for you.

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#169326 - 09/12/12 11:37 AM Re: Guns in National Parks - the rules? [Re: ETSU Pride]
DieselTwitch Offline
member

Registered: 07/01/12
Posts: 64
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By ETSU Pride
Here in the Great Smoky Mountain National Park they allow conceal handguns. My dad has a conceal license to carry here in Tennessee and I'm thinking of taking the class just for fun. If I carried in the Smokies, it will be a small 9mm. It won't stop a bear, but I'm hoping firing the gun into the air will scare it off. Assume in this situation the bear is popping his jaw at me, bluff charge, etc. I wouldn't fire the gun off if the bear ignored me and went back to munching on the berries. I would just simply keep going about my business peacefully. On the other hand, scaring off a black bear the old fashion way has been working for me and there only been one bear attack that resulted in death in the last 12 years within the GSMNP boundary. There has been a couple attacks that resulted in injury, but the average is less than one a year. Keep in mind the GSMNP gets 6 millions visitors a year!!!!!!!


No offense buddy but thats the worst idea. Never count on a gun to scare an animal away sometimes. Not only that but its illegal to do so. I Didn't even think there where any bears in the smokeys.

Firing a gun should ONLY be done if you plan on killing something. Take you class very seriously. don't do it just for fun.

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#169327 - 09/12/12 12:01 PM Re: Guns in National Parks - the rules? [Re: DieselTwitch]
skcreidc Offline
member

Registered: 08/16/10
Posts: 1590
Loc: San Diego CA
Just curious DT, did you even read any of the article? You don't have to agree with it, but going through it was interesting I thought. The part I thought most interesting was bear behavior.

Hitting the head will not always drop the bear on the spot. I personally do not hunt bear, but have befriended many who do. One such group hunted grizzly in Montana with sidearms. These guys were drooling for tags. The side kill zone is obvious to any who hunt, and the frontal kill zone in the article seemed to match what they told me was the kill zone for them. But bullets can bounce off their heads at times. Also, some friends who hunt with rifles have hit the target square in the head only to have the brown bear travel almost 13 miles before it dropped. From everything I have heard, one shot is all you will likely get. This is all from people I would trust with my life. I have personally hunted deer and elk, but now only game birds with my avitar.

Also from what I have heard, brown bears usually know when someone is hunting them. That might make a big difference in their behavior, being hunted vs an encounter with a human. What experience I have with them lets me know that they are smart.


Edited by skcreidc (09/12/12 12:08 PM)

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#169330 - 09/12/12 12:09 PM Re: Guns in National Parks - the rules? [Re: DieselTwitch]
ETSU Pride Offline
member

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 933
Loc: Knoxville, TN
Fair point. Supposedly there are two bears per square miles in the Smokies. Every backcountry site has a steel bear cable to hang up your food and odor things. Last summer I was 10 yards away from a 300 pound bear. Fortunately, I was with a couple people and we all made noisy, threw rocks near it (didn't hit him), etc and he eventually ran off. The fact he didn't run off immediately had me freak out! This was at a shelter too and the next morning we began our ascend to the second highest peak in the Smokies and there were fresh bear scats. That bear hangs around that shelter!!! Since then, I've backpacked and dayhiked a few times and haven't had a encounter. I did see tracks and scats, but no flesh. grin

To get back on topic, I do have a shotgun I use for duck hunting and my dad carries, but it never cross my mind that I need one for backpacking other than the random erroneous thought I previously posted above. I have heard stories out west that wolves can be aggressive in the winter months, but out here I've never seen any in the wild, just tracks. Bears are only major animal I have to be super cautious about and I have better chances of getting hurt walking than an aggressive encounter.
_________________________
It is one of the blessings of wilderness life that it shows us how few things we need in order to be perfectly happy.-- Horace Kephart

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#169331 - 09/12/12 12:24 PM Re: Guns in National Parks - the rules? [Re: skcreidc]
DieselTwitch Offline
member

Registered: 07/01/12
Posts: 64
Loc: Colorado
I was reading it as I posted it.

I've personally been rushed before in combat and I can tell you can get more than one round off. And if your using the right ammo. HP or BT it will expand and destroy the internals.

I've been maced before for training and the second time is not as bad as the first. So lets say you encounter a bear that has been maced before. 20$ says its going to care less about the spray this time.

In it boils down to personal preference and what you feel comfortable with. Personally I like my hand guns not to have safeties. I can shoot from the hip and continue to fire all the way to a standard frontal fire position. I spend at least one day a week training in a firing range and Im not a fallow shot by any means. Thats why I will recommend Spray to any one who is not 100% comfortable with a gun.

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#169332 - 09/12/12 12:29 PM Re: Guns in National Parks - the rules? [Re: DieselTwitch]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2865
Loc: California
Guns that can kill a bear, HAM radio. Your pack must be heavy! I have no doubt you are well trained in handling a gun and shooting it off appropriately. I think each area should be considered separately. If you go to Alaska, then by all means the gun may be appropriate. Most other places in continental USA the gun (and HAM radio) are overkill (no pun intended). I am sort of a geek - I look at numbers - statistically the chance of getting hurt by a bear in most USA wilderness areas is really small. I just am not willing to add all that weight to my pack when the statistical odds are so low. I have run into bears a LOT. On one trip I ran into 8 bears in 3 days. I am reluctant to even carry bear spray. I carried the spray this summer because everyone recommended it - never even saw a bear - big waste of $$ and added weight to my pack. I have yet been talked into carrying SPOT. If I wanted 100% security I would not backpack at all.

From the way you are posting (if I am wrong, sorry) it sounds like you are viewing the wilderness experience as advisarial - man vs bears, need for instant communicantions. I just do not see it that way.

As for rules, it seems a lot like the medical marijuana law here in California - state allows, feds do not - lots of inconsitencies and confusion. Since the gun issue is not the same in all locations, I would get the information from the horses mouth - talk to local law enforcement. Lots of stuff you dig up in the internet is not correct.

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#169333 - 09/12/12 12:35 PM Re: Guns in National Parks - the rules? [Re: wandering_daisy]
ETSU Pride Offline
member

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 933
Loc: Knoxville, TN
Wandering Daisy, I heard there are more brown bear attacks in Yellowstone and the lower 48 than in Alaska. Simply because there more brown bear in Yellowstone and Yosemite than in Denali. This was in a Backpacker's issue last year.


Edited by ETSU Pride (09/12/12 12:35 PM)
_________________________
It is one of the blessings of wilderness life that it shows us how few things we need in order to be perfectly happy.-- Horace Kephart

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#169335 - 09/12/12 12:51 PM Re: Guns in National Parks - the rules? [Re: ETSU Pride]
skcreidc Offline
member

Registered: 08/16/10
Posts: 1590
Loc: San Diego CA
ETSU, no brown bears except on the flag in Yosemite. Think the last one in Cali was shot in 1916 or so.

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#169336 - 09/12/12 12:53 PM Re: Guns in National Parks - the rules? [Re: wandering_daisy]
DieselTwitch Offline
member

Registered: 07/01/12
Posts: 64
Loc: Colorado
Yeah many call me gear heavy. And Im ok with that. Im working to lighten my load of things like then, bag, cookwear... the radio i take because I never hike alone and often end up with people that are either fast or slow. so I give each of them a small FRS radio. My ham radio acts like a repeater and is good for 5watts where the small FRS radios are only good for 0.5watts. My radio weighs in at 8.5 oz

I don't like the ultra light minimalist attitude because I've plucked to many under prepared backpackers out of the mountains. My pack weight including all my "extras" are about 35lbs max I hip carry my handgun, and the radio is also fun for making contacts from mtn tops. You would have to be a HAM to understand that part. and its not the huge table top radio you may be thinking

You may not see it that way but I also tend to head out despite the conditions. The worse the weather the more excited I get!


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