Having camped with scouts a lot, I agree. I always found that not checking was an effective learning tool: they didn't forget it twice.

Builds Character.

I get to "practice" a lot. I'm lucky to live where I can go out my back door and be in a forest where conditions are pretty much like what I'll be backpacking in.

My neighbor and I went backpacking back out there three or four times last season to test gear, beer, and just get out and have some fun. We've went out day and night hiking in weather many times just to practice starting a fire, or setting up a fast and lightweight shelter, or to test some gear we've bought or made. (any excuse will do )

So, for the most part, I try pretty hard not to forget anything when I go backpacking for a few nights in a wilderness area. I'm sure I have, but nothing comes to mind that has caused me much of a problem.

I actually learned the "Forgot something" lesson the easy way when I was young. A buddy came back from a solo trip to Yosemite and told me how a shoelace disintegrated two days into a four night trip. He brought nothing he could use to replace it and it caused him to turn back before he made his destination and pretty much ruined the rest of his trip.

Of course, I over compensated and brought way too much for many years after that, but I could have replaced the clutch on 1935 Auburn Boat Tail Speedster in the middle of the Sequoia NF if you needed me to

phat, I've still never tried the bowdrill method to start a fire. One of these days I'm going to have to give it a shot, but for now I still don't have any bragging rights for that.

Thanks for starting this thread. I somehow left my stove out of the pack this weekend. With fire restrictions, there was no backup. Oh well. We had peanut butter tortillas to eat.

Oh... the scouts comment made me laugh. Can't tell you how often we used to lend each other utensils...

Lori, Phat, and Wandering Daisy, until I joined this forum and walked with your advice in mind, I would not have viewed too much food as a problem... and now I do. Thank you.

So far I think Daisy's halter top and phats bow drill take the top awards.

I guess maybe I should have stated this earlier but its been fun reading all the posts. I was really trying to say that we go camping with so much modern high technology that we replace a lot of what used to be "skill based" with hardware. I was suggesting leaving out the hardware and practicing the skill. phat left out his matches and made a fire drill from memory. This IS EXACTLY the kind of thing I was writing about - learning the skills to do without the gear - I meant hardware more than sleeping bag or coat.

This isn't the place for comparative pack lists, lord knows we've had enough pack lists, and you knnow they are all tailored to the user and where that user goes to camp.
BUT
the difference in what experienced users will carry into the same environment is interesting. I probably carry fewer individual items of hardware than most. I am not really a high tech "geared up" camper. Most of my gear is 20 years old, bomb proof and in perfect like new condition after years of use. I NEVER worry about a coat blowing out because I use my clothing as hardware. My clothes were mostly chosen for high altitude mountaineering use where what you wear is all there is between you and bad things.

I NEVER want to be pinned down by weather. Part of my plannng and attitude is based on being able to move towards my goal in ANY WEATHER. This is self rescue oriented. Others will be content to dig in and want camp comfort. Climbers basically never get any comfort because they ARE the original and ultimate ULers. They deal with it to achieve their goals.

Some peoples goals is to fly a kite and sun tan [while camping]and thats great, but they will be going someplace "nicer". So anyway this attitude has to be seriously considered. Just to illustrate this - Lori will not be carrying a 12 pound rope and a 25 pound rack of protection along with her other camping gear. She will suffer less than the climber, and she will achieve her goals and so will the climber. She may wonder why the climber chose to do something so difficult and the climber may wonder why she bothers to camp to just hang out and have fun...

Lori,
I have a problem reconciling the idea that a 24 or 30 pound is UL. OK we talk about our packs pre food and stuff, but the reality is, you are going to be carrying a 30 pound plus pack. So thats not UL to my way of thinking, regardless of the reason. So you will have a heavy pack, apparently also a pretty large amount of your body mass as a smaller person? I know your pack would be even heavier with other gear, but somehow the term UL being applied to a fully packed pack over 20 pounds sounds like a misnomer. (Lori I'm not trying to take anything out of context here, just curious).

I'm just saying that if theres over 20 pounds on your back, you are not UL, you are now midweight with some light modern gear.

Jim

Jim

I'm not sure I agree.

Building fire is inherrently equipment and technique oriented. As you know, you have to convert energy into heat (whether you do it with a firebow, a match (or other exothermic reaction), flint and steel, or a battery), catch tinder, and move up. I'm not getting from here to there with no tools to work with, at least not on an acceptable/usuable timescale, no matter how much I know.

My point is that you have to develop both skills and gear, and understand the principles behind the skills you develop and the gear you use... or was that your point and I just talked past you?

Steadman

Steadman - yep exactly.

You do need both tools and gear, but being able to improvise tools when you have none is the jist.

you said "Building fire is inherrently equipment and technique oriented. As you know, you have to convert energy into heat (whether you do it with a firebow, a match (or other exothermic reaction), flint and steel, or a battery), catch tinder, and move up. I'm not getting from here to there with no tools to work with, at least not on an acceptable/usuable timescale, no matter how much I know."

I would disagree. phat made the fire bow and started a fire. I'm not saying that others will be equally skilled nor lucky, but given a choice, I'd go with phat rather than you because he was challenged and came up to the challenge, and you are saying that without the gear you simply could not do it.

that is the message of this post - learn skills that work when equipment fails or gets gone. Some have lost their entire pack and had literaly what was on their back and in their pockets. phat hates the word tough - but it does sort of describe the mental attitude of "I can make it with nothing and still have fun." Thats the person that walks out and survives when others perish. And probably that person has practiced doing without whether on purpose or by accident.

Jim

Jim,

I really like the premise of this thread. It just made me rethink something that happened to us last year. We went out for a 5 day trek. On the first night, it rained and our tent leaked a lot, so we spent the night with all our clothes on and our raingear. We couldn't use the sleeping bags because there were puddles on the floor. Surprisingly we were warm enough. It rained all night the second night, too. So we spent the second night the same way. Finally, on the third night we had a "sleeping bag night."

It was a cheap Walmart tent I had a long time, so it was expendible. It was a poor design with a seam folded up so it caught the water running down the side of the tent. Now that I think about it, I could have cut the bottom out of the tent and it would have done well as a tarp with the bottom for a footprint. The water would have run harmlessly under it.

Personally, I don't care for the word "tough." I prefer "indifferent."

Went backpacking the other day right after snowed. Left my boots at home. First day of hiking snow came in around the top of the shoe and soaked my socks. While my feet didn't get cold wet feet was no fun. Second day I took to grocery bags and put on on each foot before putting my shoes on. I taped the top of bags around tight with duct tape. My feet stayed dry. Problem solved.