Well maybe the title wasn't all that great. I guess we have all gone camping and forgotten something major or minor. I really relish those times when I reach for the fuel and there is none, or the water filter didn't make it, or there are no matches. These accidents force me to entertain myself by working around the missing gear.

I would like to go on a camping trip and each person gets to remove one item from each other pack and leave it behind in a secret spot so no one knows what was removed until arriving at camp, then the group works out a solution to the missing gear that shares resources. We love to do things the easy way - sometime go camping the hard way... with only part of your gear.

Jim

I've never forgot anything I remembered.

So if someone takes my pack, everyone in the group has to carry ALL my stuff..

Dunno about the idea, but over the years I've done lots of improvisation - tarp over fly-less tent in old days, fire or candle and soak instead of stove (when out of fuel) homemade chopsticks because of no spoon. snow or moss instead of TP. (I maintain snowballs are almost better than TP) bivying in my clothing and tarp, etc etc.

Even without a stove, or fire, meals can be eaten. they may be crunchy, cold and unpleasant, but you'll live.

Firemaking stuff (le mini-bic) rides in my ditty bag, pot, and pocket, small knife in my ditty bag, and in my pocket. (redundancy).

Interestingly even in my usual light pack, there's even redundancy for shelter and warmth in the form of a UL silnylon poncho and clothing - so if you were to burn up my tent, sleeping bag, and pad, well, I'd still make it.. I've bivy'ed with my tarp and clothing on a dayhike before. I wouldn't be very comfortable. but I'd make it just fine - in good weather I'd even be comfortable. In nasty weather I'd be miserable, but not dead.

Notwithstanding that, I don't think I'd go out of my way to make a game of it. I still go out to have fun, and to me just sounds like artificially trying to make things not fun.

I almost forgot my sleeping bag, as I came back inside to lock the door. Oh look, my sleeping bag. Camping once, forgot the propane adapter for the stove, used a woodfire as it was allowed.
Duane

I left my shoes in the driveway and drove 30 miles. Fortunate I stopped to get something out of the trunk and noticed they were missing. Hiking in crocs wouldn't be a lot of fun.

I personally didn't, but I have run into someone (and rendered some small assistance) coming out in sandals in rough terrain in weather - they had left their boots on the ground unattended overnight, and camp got visited by a porcupine - which proceeded to chew their (presumably salty tasting) boots into uselessness.

So in fact some of it isn't about forgetting things, sometimes the exercise really is "what happens if this thing is redered useless on the hike."

Last year I shortened the ends of the straps on my backpack's hip belt to save weight (with trimming all strap ends, I got a couple ounces off it). However, I neglected to re-hem the strap ends. I got to the trailhead with my grandson and discovered that one side of the hip belt buckle had come off! Fortunately, enough of the belt ends were left that I could tie them in a square knot! Of course I have since done the hemming!

A few months ago I was cleaning out the spare tire well (under the floor in the back of my compact wagon) and guess what I found!

My neighbor and occasional hiking partner has suggested we go without food and instead forage/hunt for edibles. I've always declined, I just don't have any spare weight to burn up, so after the first day I'm afraid I'd be dreaming of him slowing turning on a spit.

Like phat, I like to have some redundancy by packing dual purpose or duplicate items for what I need to survive if my primary gear fails. This is most important when I'm solo, but I generally pack the same when I'm going with others too.

I would certainly join a group for the exercise you describe, I think that'd be a lot of fun.

Among the little things I'd really miss are my reading glasses, my baking soda/toothbrush, Emergen-C vitamin mix, and my morning coffee. Those would be really tough to replace.

I've used lot's of things to improvise for that baking soda/toothbrush combo, but nothing that I was truly satisfied with. My daily dose of Emergen-C and coffee take me a long way, and those would be hard to find a replacement for. I'd be pretty screwed without my reading glasses for doing any detailed work like removing a splinter or reading a map or GPS, and it'd just be sucky overall to not be able to see things close up.

As far as other stuff, I'd be fine here without a stove and fuel, they are really just a luxury here, and I'd make do okay with just my ground cloth and emergency blanket for a shelter, I've got that system nailed down pretty good now and in most cases I'd be fine without my sleeping bag if I had those.

Just don't take my food, please....

I do not need to practice. I chronically forget or lose stuff!

On my last trip I accidently picked up my gardening shoes instead of my newer hiking shoes (same brand- when my hiking shoes start to fall apart they get assigned gardening shoes). Even though the soles were ready to fall off, they made it!

One trip my ditty bag fell out of my pack top pocket, unbenownst to me, and I had to do 3 days without anything in it - chapstick, sunscreen, toothpaste, and most important my allergey medicine. I was walking down the trail, eyes swollen shut, tears running down my face, sneezing and coughing. Murphy's Law- the ONE time I do not have my allergey medicine, the pine pollen is at its peak.

I drove all the way to the trailhead to discover I forgot the tent (forecast was for rain). I drove back home and then revised the trip to a closer to home trip (since I had already spent my budgeted gas money).

Lost my spoon - dear husband shared his with me.

Food cache (they were allowed in the old days)leaked water and ruined most of the food. Lived 5 days on Crisco and oatmeal.

Lost my bifocal sunglasses - fell out of my pocket - 2 hours searching failed to find them. Could not read a map. Had to use the Eskimo method - squint when I crossed snow.

Dropped my belay device off a cliff. Thank goodness I am old school and knew how to hip belay.

Severe rash from new hiking pants. Wore my fleece shirt as a skirt.

One fall trip, thinking it would be cold, I only took fleece and wool. It turned out HOT. Good thing I was a hippie in the old days- improvised a top from handkerchiefs.

once a hippy, always a hippy...

I've broken a stove, water filter, and arrived with the wrong poles for my tent. I have arrived with no matches or lighter, sprang a leak in my air mattress.

Practicing UL camping is a bit like this - you gamble that you can do without something.

Jim

Dunno about that. Honestly for anything *really* necessary, even with a 10 pound base, I *have* redundancy. The fact is a lot of what we take is for comfort - at least when merely "hiking" in temperate weather. Generally speaking, even when going ultralight, I have

1) more than one thing in my pack that can be a shelter, or made into one (usually a mini-tarp, piece of tyvek, and or jacket.)

2) more than one thing with enough warmth to pass the night in. (all my clothing, wrapped up in tarp, in sheltered place)

3) more than one thing to make fire, in more than one place in my pack. (multiple mini-bics)

and beyond that, frankly I carry enough body fat to walk out of anywhere I get into as long as I can walk, or sit there a very long time. Everything else comes down to comfort.

For me, UL isn't about taking chances - Frankly, it's the opposite, I've been out and about enough to know that I'm not, to see where the redundancies are in what I am carrying, to know I can improvise and adapt to deal with situations, and that gives me the confidence to have peace of mind while I'm out there. That in turn lets me enjoy myself without worrying about the environment.

So I suppose in a sense you are correct - in the absolute sense I can "do without" a lot of the stuff I carry. I wouldn't *enjoy* doing so, but if forced I definately could.

The flip side of that is I know of nobody carrying a 70 lb pack who carries an *extra* tent "just in case" - Glass jars of peanut butter, steel frypans, cutting boards, expresso makers, lawn chairs (yes, I've seen all of these) maybe..

I suppose there are rabid ULers who forget about safety in the quest for the anti-gravity pack load.

I don't know any of those, personally. Most of the experienced backpackers I know are comfortable and rarely have a load much over 25 lbs. Some of them are still heavier, but then, they are still carrying the gear they got ten years ago and never really thought about doing anything else.

One older fellow I am watching complete the transition to lighter gear went from an old North Face tent to a Big Agnes that's half the weight - from leaky to no leaks, as well as lighter - and a canister stove from a white gas stove - from the stove he consistently overprimed to one that does the job without all the extra weight. From my perspective, the lighter he gets, the safer he gets. As he ages and his health changes, it's better for him not to have 50 lbs on his back.

I've also watched the other way - another guy went from foam pad, frameless backpack, poncho tarp and minimalist bivy to NeoAir, Deuter ACT 50, BA Fly Creek tent. Again, he's getting older, and comfort is important. He's a few pounds heavier in the pack but creaks less in the morning.

We all find our balance somewhere along the way.

"UL is unsafe" is meaningless until you are talking about a specific person. You can't say all UL enthusiasts are unsafe, because not all of them have the same gear list or the same destination, or the same brain....

The UL vs safety debate! I think both Phat and Jim are correct in that UL is safer if you have redundency in your essentials and limit the "do without" to optionals. I also think Jim has a good idea with the "practice without", particulary for those less experienced. It is better to understand what it means to "do without" in a more controlled environment that to just assume you will be find and dandy without! It is a personal thing - some people just are tougher. My husband is a heat machine- I do not think he ever has been cold (actually he is my heat redundency). I was born cold. When everyone else is fine in a 30 degree bag, I need a 0-degree bag. Husband is sitting around in a T-shirt; I have on three layers. Each person has to find his own "UL balance" where you still are safe. And that is going to be different equipment and weight for different people, for different conditions. BUT, as you venture into more severe condtions (high altitude, continous bad weather, remoteness) I really believe that UL becomes more risky. That is not to say that ultra "Heavy" is safe either!

Don't you hate it when you accidently hit the "post" button! So to continue- I think each environment has its UL criteria that maximizes safety yet minimizes weight. I think where people get into trouble is when they take someone else's UL "list" and blindly pack the same thing, without considering environment or personal experience or condition. For example I never have nor probably never will backpack in the humid, southeaster US. I have no idea of what to bring to be UL in those conditions. Were I to simply take my "Sierra kit" I may be in for a rude surprise! Same with extended desert hiking - yeh, that would be me, dead and dried up, under a cactus because I did not take enough water.

All of us who go down the "getting lighter" path, trail and error until we come up with what is right for us.

Good discussion. I think Jim's point is that it is easy to say you can do without in theory until you actually experience it. Sometimes what you dread doing without is not so bad; sometimes the opposite- did not realize how much you really needed it!

Well, that's where you're *comfortable* - I'm the same, In a buttoned up tent, mostly naked, lying on a half length pad with my 0C bag zipped over my feet and half covering me - meanwhile my better half is cocooned in my -12C rated WM bag.. However I'm not sure the "cold sleepers" versus warm sleepers will be any tougher when they are both "uncomfortable". (I'm sure you'd hike *me* into the ground

I suppose I gotta admit the word presses a button with me, I just hate the word "tough" used in that context - been on trips with groups where the most petite little thing that was cold at night (and getting pestered at the start of the trip) cheerfully walked through nasty stuff for another three days, enjoying being out, while all the "tough" ones just bitched and complained about the weather.. tough is a state of mind, it aint physical.



I think you are simply assuming that UL is a cat stove and a 5x8 cuben tarp - something I would happily take on into a lot of places, and not anywhere near others. I'd not deliberately try to sleep under a 5x8 tarp in some of the places I have above.. What is UL in Virginia in June is not the same as what I'd call UL in the places you and I frequent.

By the same token, I go in there pretty darn light, and I think I was probably a lot riskier in such places when I was young and knew everything

I have several different choices on my list which I can tag before printing out. What I take reflects where I'm going to be, what season, how long a trip. For a short trip of one or two nights, I take a roomier but slightly heavier tent. If it's going to be below freezing, I'll take more clothing and a warmer sleeping pad. If I expect it to be cold and wet, I'll take a third pair of socks. If I'm planning to fish, there's close to an extra pound of gear (including a frying pan and some cooking oil, just in case I catch something). In other words, there's no such thing as a single list for all occasions.

I just weighed my pack for my two night trip this weekend. It's 21 lbs before fishing gear - all in. Water, food, fuel and gear.

That means I will be at 35 lbs for the 8 day trip, unless I find magically lighter substitutes for some of the stuff I have. Might be 37 lbs - might yet end up taking the Aarn bodypack instead of a ULA Circuit. I won't know until I load the Circuit with that much and try it... I've eaten myself more comfortable before.

Which reminds me - I did spend (and entire very long afternoon) managing to make fire once making a bowdrill, board and drill with only a knife, bootlace, and dry tinder (and perfect conditions). an interesting exercise, but definately one of the reasons I always have multiple mini-bic's with me The thought of doing that from scratch when tired and cold is pretty daunting.

I do a lot of day (and night) hikes, and that's actually where I do most of my practicing. I've spent a lot of winter nights out in the forest behind our place til pretty late playing around with and testing different shelters, gear, ways to cook food, and of course, beer. My neighbor joins me for a lot of that and he's great because he's always willing to improvise and reinvent stuff.

We both enjoy that a lot. For me, it's not as good as backpacking in the bigger wilderness areas we have here, but it's helped me hone my gear list and gain experience with my gear and being prepared for different circumstances.

When I do go backpacking I like having my stuff, whatever it may be. I've forgotten stuff, or not brought enough, or tried using something new that didn't work very well, but I'm getting my pack list down pretty good these past few years and I really like the comfort of knowing what I can expect from what I have with me.

It sucks when I forget something, even the little things, but it's nice to know you'll get by just the same. Honest to goodness, I know I've forgot stuff more than a few times, but I can't really recall them because it just wasn't that big a deal (or I'm getting old and can't remember that it was

About 15 years ago my wife and I did an overnight float trip and she packed our food and forgot utensils. I made some sporks out of bamboo that was growing along the river bank. I remember I got extra points for that

Lori, am I missing something or did I read your post incorrectly? If your 2-day pack is 21 pounds, you add 6 more days food (even at 1.5 pounds per day= 9 pounds), that makes your 8-day trip pack 30 pounds. Do you really take 5 pounds of fishing gear?

I am "packing" for my summer trip using my spreadsheet to help me decide what to bring. The three legs of my trip are 11-days, 13-days, 12-days with a day off in town. For longer trips I only plan on a breakfast for the day I walk out, because there usually are odds and ends left over. I take 1.25 pounds per day (2300 calories per day). This is a bit light but I am taking fishing gear- catching fish is redicuolusly easy in the Wind Rivers. All my fishing gear weighs 7.5 ounces (I only fly fish). I also only take one large fuel cannister. I will likely run out but will be below timber enough to have a few fires to supplement.

I am taking my Bearikade, because there ARE grizzlies in the first two legs, and will switch to Ursack for the last leg, where bears are less likely. Still debating about crampons - that would add 1.5 pounds. I am taking my bivy sack as a back up to my Tarptent for the first 2 legs, where I will be above timber a lot. I am using my Golite Quest even though it will be a bit overloaded at first.

There is so much water on my route. Even the passes are full of water because there still will be some snow melting. The most water I would carry would be half a liter.

So, here are my tentative starting weights. Total means everything what I wear, what is in my pockets, trekking poles, camera. Water is not included because I rarely carry water:

11-day (10 days food)- 40 pounds total 34.5 on my back

13-day (12 days food)-42 pounds total, 36.5 on my back

12-day (11 days food)- 39 pounds total, 34 on my back. Am deleting the bivy sack back-up for this section.

"Doing without" practice should also include food and water. On a long trip, small reductions in water and food carried can add up to several pounds. I have done several 4-day survival walks of 50 miles with no food and although it is not nice, it can be done if need be. I usually come off a long trip like this about 8 pounds under my starting weight, but a few days of pigging out in town helps.

Rain pants and tyvek ground sheet, plus the stove fuel, plus a rope to drag the pack up a steep bit if needed, make up the rest of the weight difference.

I said,
"Practicing UL camping is a bit like this - you gamble that you can do without something."

I didn't say anything at all about UL and safety. I didn't try to restart any old threads. Re-read it, especially the last

What is untrue about that? I pack a backpack just like the rest of you... Hmm do I need this jacket, or will I be warm enough in that one thats lighter and should I take a tent or a bivy? I don't understand why it is so difficult to accept that everyone makes compromising decisions to save weight. This isn't a moral statement and we're not out to save the earth - we're talking about lightening our packs by leaving out things that we previously thought were important.

Heck the easiest way to lighten yer pack is to leave stove food and fuel at home.

I also stand in the shower to test my rain gear...
Jim

It's difficult to accept because it is not true of all ULers.

Generalizations are useless. It is untrue that everyone who changes gear to go lighter is gambling.

I don't think of myself as UL, but some people do. And I do not go with unsafe, untested gear, or cut corners in unsafe ways to save weight.

Jim, you should go camping and backpacking with scouts. At least one will forget his flashlight, and another his spoon. I only check for items that I deem are absolutely necessary for safety (clothes, sleeping bag, etc). Other items, I leave up to them to remember to bring.