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#166680 - 06/10/12 12:05 PM Rattlesnakes
intrek38 Offline
member

Registered: 11/29/03
Posts: 430
Loc: Hesperia, Calif
http://www.yosemitefun.com/yosemite_national_park_rattlesnakes.htm

Came across this and even though I have yet to come across a rattlesnake up in the High Sierra, it got me wondering "what if" I get bit while out solo. What would you do???

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#166682 - 06/10/12 01:57 PM Re: Rattlesnakes [Re: intrek38]
skcreidc Offline
member

Registered: 08/16/10
Posts: 1590
Loc: San Diego CA
If you get bit, you need to get treatment ASAP. That IS the bottom line. The bit might have been dry, but you can't assume that. Unless you are not far in and can hike out, this is where the SPOT or PLB comes in to play: you get bit; you hit that button and get the signal out.

Better to avoid the situations that lead to getting bit. Generally, rattlesnakes like to hang out under bushes and at the base of rocks. They like places where they can stay hidden and still see things go by. Think "can I see the area around where I am placing my hands and feet" before sticking them in those spots. That is one of the beauties of staying on a well used trail, you can generally see what is around you.

The seasons are important too. When mapping in the Big Maria Mountains in Jan and Feb, we rarely saw a snake. But in March, they were all over the place. We were seeing 15 rattlesnakes a day and most of them large and fat. I never would have guessed there was that much to eat out there. Even with a group, someone needs to know what to do and it is important for everyone to know how to navigate and get out ASAP if necessary. The week after the 1st time I went to San Pedro Martir for reconnaissance, a group of 4 or 5 went to the same area we went in to. One of the party was bit by a rattler in the thigh stomping though manzanita. They did not know what to do and the guy died on the 3rd day of them trying to get him out. This was well documented and was a comedy of errors unfortunately, probably the worst of which was the lack of navigation skills in such a remote area. You can get out of this area in 1 long day with 65 lb packs under normal conditions.

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#166688 - 06/10/12 03:03 PM Re: Rattlesnakes [Re: skcreidc]
aimless Online   content
Moderator

Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 3292
Loc: Portland, OR
Better to avoid the situations that lead to getting bit.

This advice is on the money. If you are solo hiking the consequences of a bite are very serious and worthy of getting out your PLB and hitting the big red button. But avoiding snake bites is not all that hard if you stay alert.

As has been discussed on other threads, the great majority of rattlesnake bites in the USA involve young men and drunken bravado. It is also slightly comforting to know that a signifigant percentage of rattlesnake bites do not inject venom. For the snake, biting you is a last resort it would prefer not to do. Give it every chance to avoid this outcome and you'll both be better off.

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#166695 - 06/10/12 05:06 PM Re: Rattlesnakes [Re: aimless]
OregonMouse Online   content
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
Leave the snake bite kit at home, or better toss it in the trash. Cutting and/or suction only further damage the tissue, which will already be considerably damaged because the rattlesnake venom breaks down the walls of the blood vessels. They also increase the danger of infection. Tourniquets and elastic bandages are also a no-no for pit vipers (rattlesnakes, copperheads, water moccasins). (Elastic bandages are useful for other types of poisonous snakes with different types of venom, in case some Australians are reading here.)

Rather than repeat the info I quoted in this thread, I'll just link to it here (I'm "grannyhiker" on that forum).

Another post on that forum by "chameleon" is the first-hand account of someone who was bitten and had to self-evacuate. Not fun!


Edited by OregonMouse (06/10/12 05:06 PM)
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#166703 - 06/10/12 07:06 PM Re: Rattlesnakes [Re: OregonMouse]
intrek38 Offline
member

Registered: 11/29/03
Posts: 430
Loc: Hesperia, Calif
Lots of Excellent info Granny... Looks like a PLB will hopefully find its way into my pack.. Thanks

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#167402 - 06/29/12 06:18 PM Re: Rattlesnakes [Re: intrek38]
ndwoods Offline
member

Registered: 01/26/02
Posts: 572
Loc: Santa Cruz CA, Sierra Hiker
Beyond me why someone would try and pick one up. I have encountered probably 20-30 in my area (Central Coastal Calif) and tho sometimes they don't want to move, eventually they will. I have had my bike tire struck once when I tried to back my bike towards it to get it off a path where it was going to get run over. And I have had a snake coiled and rattling for all it was worth when it was almost stepped on by my friend's horse. All the other encounters had the snakes either unconcerned (rarely) or most often being afraid of us and scurrying out of the way (usually)! My 2 cents are that most importantly is not to harass them except from a distance if you really need to move one....and then get help right away if you do get bit by getting too close accidentally and being too threatening.
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#167489 - 07/02/12 06:03 PM Re: Rattlesnakes [Re: ndwoods]
Milo Offline
newbie

Registered: 07/02/12
Posts: 2
ndwoods:

You wrote:
> Beyond me why someone would try and pick one up.

Ignorance. I was up in the Catskills a few years ago - Mt. Wittenberg - and the teenager in front of me saw a snake ... if I hadn't yelled at him he would have picked it up ... a 2-footer could be a garter snake or a young rattler, but the kid didn't have a clue. I came up FAST and we noted the pattern, and later determined it was a garter snake. But if I hadn't yelled and it had been a timber rattler, it could have gone differently.

BTW, local ring-necked snakes are so tame they can be put into a shirt pocket and taken for a walk. So snake identification is kinda important.

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#167492 - 07/02/12 07:15 PM Re: Rattlesnakes [Re: Milo]
ndwoods Offline
member

Registered: 01/26/02
Posts: 572
Loc: Santa Cruz CA, Sierra Hiker
Wow. Yea our garter snakes and rattlers out west look identical almost. The garter snakes out here even lift their tails and appear to be rattling in imitation of rattlers. The only way I can tell is the heads are a little more diamond shape in a rattler and of course if I get close enough, the rattles.
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#167517 - 07/02/12 11:58 PM Re: Rattlesnakes [Re: ndwoods]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
Originally Posted By ndwoods
Wow. Yea our garter snakes and rattlers out west look identical almost. The garter snakes out here even lift their tails and appear to be rattling in imitation of rattlers. The only way I can tell is the heads are a little more diamond shape in a rattler and of course if I get close enough, the rattles.


Garter snakes are not at all like rattle snakes. Bull snakes are, however, close enough that a panicked person might mistake them, and they do shake their tails in a similar way.

Garter snakes are all yellow striped from head to toe, some with red spots down the yellow stripes, some just black and yellow striped, and they never get very large at all. We always caught them to feed to the king snakes. Which are black and white rings, or black, red, yellow and white rings for the Mountain King Snake. King snakes make pretty good pets.
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#167707 - 07/08/12 12:26 AM Re: Rattlesnakes [Re: lori]
ndwoods Offline
member

Registered: 01/26/02
Posts: 572
Loc: Santa Cruz CA, Sierra Hiker
Yea, I just googled pics of garters and yep, yellow stripes. Wonder what in the world I see around here then that looks like rattlers????? Maybe they were all rattlers...lol.
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#167709 - 07/08/12 09:04 AM Re: Rattlesnakes [Re: ndwoods]
Pika Online   content
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Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 1814
Loc: Rural Southeast Arizona
Gopher snakes look something like a rattler and they are one of the most common snakes in the U.S. They have a faint diamondish pattern on the back and will mock the behavior of a rattlesnake including coiling, tail shaking and mock strikes. A lot of gopher snakes get killed for this sort of behavior. They have a smaller and non-triangular head and, of course, no rattles. They are also slimmer through the body and can get to be much longer than the western diamondback. Also, the western diamondback has alternating black and white stripes on its tail just forward of the rattles hence the nickname "coontail". The western diamondback is the most common rattlesnake in the western U.S. but is not the only western rattler. I have personally seen sidewinders, Mojave, Arizona black, and tiger rattlesnake; none of them have the distinctive "coontail" of the western diamondback.
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#167728 - 07/09/12 12:52 PM Re: Rattlesnakes [Re: intrek38]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
I'm sure there is more complete info on what to do, but I know that staying calm and cool are very important. In short, don't go running down the trail yelling for help, that will get the venom moving faster which will cause damage to occur faster.

If you can summon help, it's best if you try to cool your body temp and stay still to slow down your heart rate and blood flow, and wait for help to arrive.

Put a splint on the limb that's been bitten and don't move it if possible.

Keep the bitten area below your heart.

I've read that if you can get into cold water that will help slow your blood flow, but I've also read that you don't want to wash the bite with water because residual venom on the outside of the bite can be used to identify the snake. If possible, I think I'd get in cold water if I knew what bit me.

If there is no help for you, put a splint on the bitten area and hike out slowly so you don't get your heart rate up.

Avoiding snakes is a good policy for backpacking solo. I try to be snake aware when I'm hiking. I check for them under fallen trees before I sit down on one, avoid piles of branches, check cracks and crevices before using them for a hand or foothold, and I alway use a flashlight at night to check for them where I'm walking.

In my experiences, I rarely saw snakes in the higher elevations of the Sierras, but saw lots of them in the foothills near rivers and creeks. Rattlers were easy to find in the Summer if you went looking for them. I lived in Castiac, CA for a while, that was said to have one of the highest densities of rattlers anywhere out there at the time, and I hiked the area extensively, but never saw one when I avoided snaky places.

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#167730 - 07/09/12 01:29 PM Re: Rattlesnakes [Re: billstephenson]
Gershon Offline
member

Registered: 07/08/11
Posts: 1110
Loc: Colorado
When I was young, my father got bitten by a rattlesnake in the Catskills. After a week of intense pain and suffering, the snake died.

I have only seen one rattlesnake in Colorado. It bit a friend's Lab. Its head swelled up for a day and then it was fine. The vet they found wouldn't treat it without a dead snake as the wrong anti-venom could kill it.

Supposedly, they hang out in the desert near a local golf course, so I don't go there in the summer.


Edited by Gershon (07/09/12 01:30 PM)
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#167746 - 07/10/12 01:23 AM Re: Rattlesnakes [Re: Pika]
ndwoods Offline
member

Registered: 01/26/02
Posts: 572
Loc: Santa Cruz CA, Sierra Hiker
Thanks! Gopher Snake it was then....I was mixing garter and gopher!:)
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#167749 - 07/10/12 10:20 AM Re: Rattlesnakes [Re: billstephenson]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
Good advice.

I've stepped on a tiny rattler once, and almost put my hand on a scorpion basking on a rock. It pays to watch where you put your extremities. Prevention is always easier than trying to deal with the aftermath....
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http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#167764 - 07/10/12 05:21 PM Re: Rattlesnakes [Re: ndwoods]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Originally Posted By ndwoods
Beyond me why someone would try and pick one up.


Let me guess, you are not a boy. smile Boys have an unquenchable desire to pick up snakes. Not all boys posses this, but I definitely do. And, my sons follow suit. I have picked up a lot of snakes in my day. A cotton mouth being the most poisonous. Mostly it is garder snakes, or gopher snakes. I didn't try to pick up the only rattler that I have seen, well, with my hands. I used a stick. But, man I really wanted to.


Edited by finallyME (07/10/12 05:22 PM)
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#167765 - 07/10/12 05:29 PM Re: Rattlesnakes [Re: finallyME]
Glenn Roberts Online   content
Moderator

Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 2208
Loc: Southwest Ohio
Regarding boys and their desires to put their hands where they don't belong: someone once told me that the proof that women are smarter than men is that you rarely see women missing fingers. smile

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#168003 - 07/26/12 02:00 AM Re: Rattlesnakes [Re: Glenn Roberts]
ndwoods Offline
member

Registered: 01/26/02
Posts: 572
Loc: Santa Cruz CA, Sierra Hiker
Oh...and I have seen rattlers in the high sierra btw. Not high. But I have seen a HUGE one near Echo Valley...I'm not pulling out my map right now, but I would guess that's about 7,000? And I have a friend who saw one once at 10,000 in Yosemite.... just for info....
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#169199 - 09/10/12 04:30 PM Re: Rattlesnakes [Re: ndwoods]
Centuryhouse Offline
newbie

Registered: 09/07/12
Posts: 6
The thought of getting bit when way out there is pretty scary. I did a backpack trip last year at Devil's River Natural Area in Texas, down near Del Rio.

I was a little concerned about potential snake bite as it was around 80 miles from the nearest hospital, after a 22 mile drive down a dirt road, after a full day's hike to get to that dirt road if having to evacuate.

I noticed that all of the previous medical advice for snake bites have changed - no more cutting, trying to suck venom out, etc. It appears that there is NO treatment you can administer yourself. Which makes me wonder if there is anything medical professionals can do, other than anti-venom treatment (not always available).

Are there any gaitors that are effective for stopping bites?

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#169249 - 09/11/12 10:58 AM Re: Rattlesnakes [Re: Centuryhouse]
skcreidc Offline
member

Registered: 08/16/10
Posts: 1590
Loc: San Diego CA
Snake gaiters, that is what you want. Look at Cabela's, Forestry Supplies, or Bass pro or another hunting supply and you will find a selection.

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#170098 - 10/04/12 12:39 PM Re: Rattlesnakes [Re: skcreidc]
skcreidc Offline
member

Registered: 08/16/10
Posts: 1590
Loc: San Diego CA
Ran into this today as I was trying to find any NEW sources of info for the trails at San Pedro Martir.

Snake protection

Apparently snake protection is a hot topic for the BajaNomad Forum crowd, as it probably should be. There is a fair amount of rattlesnake activity up there. If you watch the video, notice the striking distance of these buzzworms. A three foot snake has got a 1 to 1.5 foot strike distance. A big one could tag that guy in the knee or thigh though, maybe that's why he is just messing with the little ones.

Oh yea, the video is a little hyped so turn down the volume at first. wink


Edited by skcreidc (10/04/12 12:40 PM)

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#170108 - 10/04/12 06:35 PM Re: Rattlesnakes [Re: skcreidc]
Just-a-Guy Offline
newbie

Registered: 08/03/12
Posts: 3
OK, that vid infuriated me. I'd like to take the a-holes who made it and let a few of those snakes loose on them, without their stupid gaiters.

Sheesh.

Oh, I can't remember if I've posted here before, longtime lurker. I'm just a guy. Just a guy who happens to think snakes are beautiful creatures and should be respected.

Hi.

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#170110 - 10/04/12 08:15 PM Re: Rattlesnakes [Re: Just-a-Guy]
Heather-ak Offline
member

Registered: 07/11/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Fairbanks, AK
Yeah I felt bad for the snake too. I like snakes... that don't bite me (and I try to not irritate any that I come across.)

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#170111 - 10/04/12 09:38 PM Re: Rattlesnakes [Re: Heather-ak]
oldranger Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: California (southern)
I agree completely with these posts - it is silly, stupid, and quite possibly dangerous to deliberately hassle snakes. Nor is it necessary. In all my snake encounters, I went in one direction and the snake went in another. No problem.

Incidentally, are there trails in the Sierra San Pedro Martir? It has been a while, but one of my most memorable trips was a climb of Picacho del Diablo from the east side. Nothing remotely resembling a trail at all during the entire trip. Didn't see any rattlesnakes, either. Best wilderness trip ever.

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#170112 - 10/04/12 10:48 PM Re: Rattlesnakes [Re: skcreidc]
jbylake Offline
member

Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 202
Loc: Northern KY USA
I don't know how many times I've run into rattlesnakes, copperheads, and a couple of cotton mouths. Twice, I've walked onto out croppings covered with them. Having lived in CA, TX, KY, CO and other places with high populations of them, it is hard, sometimes to avoid them. When I get into brush up to my waist, I get very nervous sometimes. I've been struck at once, because I didn't se it, and he didn't give me an advance buzz that you will usually get. I've stepped on a copper head more than once, and wasn't struck at.

All that I would add to this conversation is this. If you're worried about it, and possibly rightly so, wear snake chaps, and watch where you stick your hands. Many snake bites are absolutely avoidable, and many are caused by people messing with them in the first place.

Kentucky is kind of funny. There are counties where you may never see a rattlesnake, and the adjoining county might introduce you to more than you ever want to know.

As one poster noted that there's nothing you can do, if bitten, citing the old day's methods of making incisions, using suction cups, etc. Actually this method can still be of use, by slowing down the flow of venom, to removing enough of it to dilute it enough for you to buy some time to get help.
It isn't reliable, that's true, and way too many people use the supplied "scapel", and end up cutting a vein, causing excessive bleeding and just cause more problems.

I think the best method is the "Austrialin Method" to survive a bite. Can't describe it here without pictures, but I'll try to follow-up with a link to it. Not 100% reliable, for sure, but those folks deal with 10 or so of the top 12 or so most venomous snakes in the world, and they have a good idea of what works and what doesn't.

I've been incredibly lucky not to have been hit, but in all actuality, the number of snake bites in the wild, are very rare, actually. I have, though, a good friend who was shot in Viet Nam, and was hit by a Timber Rattler (in the far south east corner of KY). He was with a friend, they had been riding dirt bikes in the hills, and about 15 minutes trying to get off the hill, he felt to faint to continue. His buddy left him, got help, and they got him off the mountain and to the hospital. Spent weeks in the hospital. Later told me, that the strike was much more painful than the gun shot wound he received in 'Nam.

I do have snake chaps, and do wear them sometimes, but they are uncomfortable, so I've survived all these years using common sense.

You are much more likely to walk past a cotton mouth, or copperhead, and never see it, than you are to be bitten by one.

My advice...use your own discretion, and a lot of common sense, if wandering into areas known to be heavily populated by venomous snakes.

Just my .02's worth....
J.


Edited by jbylake (10/05/12 10:58 AM)

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#170116 - 10/05/12 09:00 AM Re: Rattlesnakes [Re: oldranger]
skcreidc Offline
member

Registered: 08/16/10
Posts: 1590
Loc: San Diego CA
Sorry people, it wasn't my intent to upset anybody. The video is annoying, but I was in a hurry and had my common sense filter off. The video does show that snake gaiters can work and a bit about how the snakes strike. I usually go my way and the snake the other like most of you.

Oldranger, I've been up the canyon as well as on top and they are totally different experiences. Most of the park is a series of broad plateaus separated by relatively low ridges, like steps, as you go south and west. And yes, there are trails, but these were unmarked.


Edited by skcreidc (10/05/12 09:12 AM)

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#170146 - 10/05/12 10:44 PM Re: Rattlesnakes [Re: skcreidc]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3983
Loc: Bend, Oregon
My concern is with the rattlesnakes in the desert east of here. Its high desert Juniper forest and volcanic country with rocks and gritty soil - perfect for sunning on a hot day after crawling out from under your rock. cool You can't let most dogs run loose there because they will sure enough find a snake. My pitbull might be ok because she has no real interest in running loose, she'd rather be next to me - she heals well and I walk her off leash around home.

I guess dogs can be snake aversion trained, but a short leash is probably the best next to leaving the dog at home. frown

I can also assure ya'll from personal experience that a 2 foot rattlesnake can strike further than its length (totally airborn) and it can strike almost waist high, from the ground. Do not corner one of em... big ones are worse and if'n you get one with a temper, it could be nasty - I was struck at 4 times by one with an attitude before I killed it. Yuck
Jim smile
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#170150 - 10/05/12 11:12 PM Re: Rattlesnakes [Re: Jimshaw]
jbylake Offline
member

Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 202
Loc: Northern KY USA
Originally Posted By Jimshaw
My concern is with the rattlesnakes in the desert east of here. .. before I killed it. Yuck
Jim smile

Yuck? Hey guy, they make good eating....

J.

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#170379 - 10/11/12 10:46 AM Re: Rattlesnakes [Re: jbylake]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Originally Posted By jbylake
Originally Posted By Jimshaw
My concern is with the rattlesnakes in the desert east of here. .. before I killed it. Yuck
Jim smile

Yuck? Hey guy, they make good eating....

J.


I had rattlesnake sausage once. Very, very tasty.
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#170388 - 10/11/12 11:54 AM Re: Rattlesnakes [Re: finallyME]
rockchucker22 Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/12
Posts: 751
Loc: Eastern Sierras
I've come across too many rattle snakes to count, Mohave green, western diamondbacks, sidewinders..... Never been struck at but have been scared s$&@less by sitting on a log that started rattling. The sespe river above Ojia has some of the biggest westerns. In the desert we have a lot of sidewinders, they arn't aggressive and avoid people. I've come to really like rattlers they are quite amazing.
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#170397 - 10/11/12 01:16 PM Re: Rattlesnakes [Re: rockchucker22]
jbylake Offline
member

Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 202
Loc: Northern KY USA
The Mojave green used to scare the heck out of me. Since it contains a nuerotoxin, they are much more dangerous, venom wise, as the more common Western Diamondback. Also, you can't always identify them, some of them are obvious, they have greenish hue to them, not all of them do. We were always taught to consider the Mojave rattlesnakes much more venomous than the more common Western Diamondback. There was something, I can't quite remember, about a type A, and a Type B venom, with Mojave rattlers, type A being the more dangerous, having the more dangerous nuerotoxins.

I prefer spotting Rattlers in general, in the desert, because often times they can be easily seen, once you train yourself what to look for. Here, where I live, we have a couple of species, actually the same, except for their coloring, the Timber rattlesnake.

I like to go off trail quite a bit, and the grass and brush can really get high, up to shoulder length. Since here, most bites occur at somewhere close to above the ankle, I always wear high boots, in these situations. Usually, but not always, you'll get a warning buzz. Rattlesnake bites happen here, but not really as often as you'd think, given the heavy population of them in some area's.

I personally only know of one person ever bitten by one, but have read news accounts now and then, where someone gets a bite. Usually, it's some body with lard for brains, poking at it with a stick or something. Sometimes, there are these fundementalist types of churches where they take a one liner from the Bible, out of context, from an entire book in the Bible, and beleive that they'll only get bit if they aren't living right with God. They generally grab a handful of Rattlers and Copperheads and dance around with them. Kentucky has really cracked down on that, as far as they can, due to the Constitution and the Freedom of Religion, but these folks can no longer have children under the age of 18 with them while practicing this ritual. They've also cracked down on the number of snakes that these people can privately own. I think God gave me a healthy respect for the dangers involved with messing with rattlers, and a bit of fear to boot.

Meandering off point a little, in case you're interested, we have lots and lots of Copperheads. Bites from them are rarely fatal, even in remote areas, where it might take quite a while to get help, due to the fact that their venom is pretty weak compared to the other venomous snakes in the U.S.

Back to snake bites, the only other person in Cali that I knew of, didn't know him, was an Army grunt from Fort Hunter Ligget, who, reportedly was poking at one with the muzzle of his weapon. Western Diamondbacks, in general, can uncoil and strike up to the full length of their body, and can even uncoil so hard and fast to actually come off the ground, but I'm sure that you desert dweller's probably already knew that, whereas the Timber Rattlers here, generally can't strike more than half the length of their bodies. So the Army grunt was asking for it, big time.

My most basic instincts involving an encounter with any rattler, no matter what species, is to try to give it as much room bettween him and I, as humanly possible.

I agree, that they are pretty tasty, but I personally didn't go out of my way to capture one for dinner. We had a young kid from either Nevada or New Mexico, I forget, who would go into the hills, just north of our base, and catch them by the bucket full's, and come back and have a big grill out, outside of the barracks, for anyone to try.

I gave him an earful once, for doing this. Had he tipped one of the buckets, well we had enough of them on the base already, all we needed was another 20 or 30, meandering around the barracks.

Bottom line, I just prefer to let them be.
In a survival situation, would I seek and kill one, yes. But it takes a while to starve, so I think I could find something a little less risky to capture and eat, than a Mojave, or any other type Rattler.

As far as backpackers go, well a great many of our trails are in state parks, and generally go in a well marked and traveled loop from maybe 1.5 to 6 or 7 mile loops. They are occasioally spotted next to the trails, but I talk to the wardens quite often, and they have really never been a problem, except to scare the living daylights out of someone. Some of these "loops" have pictures of rattlers on signs, just to remind hikers to be careful.

J.


Edited by jbylake (10/11/12 01:29 PM)

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