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#158592 - 12/11/11 06:14 PM Wood stove/charging device
Franco Offline
member

Registered: 04/05/04
Posts: 1010
Loc: Australia

I received, sometime last week, an update on the Biolite Stove to let me know that the production model is finalised and will ship early 2012.
It has gained some weight (now about 2 lbs) but it also now has a USB charging port.
Similar in stored size to a 1L Nalgene.
It produces 1-2watts of energy so I understand (sort of...) that it will charge most of the gadgets people may want to take on an extended trip.
Anyway, if you are interested in a relatively compact "smokeless" wood burning stove and use gadgets , take a look :
http://www.biolitestove.com/BioLite.html
BTW, I think that $129 is very reasonable...
Franco

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#158593 - 12/11/11 06:51 PM Re: Wood stove/charging device [Re: Franco]
oldranger Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: California (southern)
Aside from being too heavy and too expensive, it looks just dandy. I assume it is capable of boiling water..

I would wonder if for the same weight, you would do better with a solar panel and a real stove. Soem of the Goal Zero models look intriguing for solar recharging, but I have "zero" experience with them.

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#158597 - 12/11/11 07:28 PM Re: Wood stove/charging device [Re: oldranger]
Franco Offline
member

Registered: 04/05/04
Posts: 1010
Loc: Australia
"I assume it is capable of boiling water.."

This video of one of the prototypes in action , may give a better idea of how it works :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmHCIBvI6vE

Anything that needs me putting my hand into my pocket is expensive but looking at commercially available somewhat similar stoves (without the charger bit) like the Bushbuddy or the FourDog Bushcooker , it looks pretty good to me.
If you add the weight and cost of a solar panel and bits you need to connect it to your device , then both weight and price may not be too bad.
Mostly I was thinking about areas where wood is plentiful but the sun is scarce...
Like a lot of this type of gear, it is a niche product so no good at all for most but potentially great for some.
Franco

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#158601 - 12/11/11 08:50 PM Re: Wood stove/charging device [Re: Franco]
billstephenson Offline
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Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Am I mistaken, or does the fire actually generate the juice to power the fan and charge your batteries?

_________________________
--

"You want to go where?"



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#158602 - 12/11/11 09:09 PM Re: Wood stove/charging device [Re: billstephenson]
Franco Offline
member

Registered: 04/05/04
Posts: 1010
Loc: Australia
Hi Bill
you are not mistaken. I think it uses the Seebeck effect to generate power from heat :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_effect
A more comparable product is the Zip stove , but you need batteries for that one.
Franco


Edited by Franco (12/11/11 09:17 PM)

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#158619 - 12/12/11 12:26 PM Re: Wood stove/charging device [Re: Franco]
billstephenson Offline
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Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Well, that's pretty damn cool, and even if it's not ready for "Lightweight" solo backpacking, it is a reasonable option for group backpack trips now, and incredibly promising for where it might lead.

I'd like to see this same "Seebeck effect" applied to a device I could use with a campfire. I think that may have as much, possibly more, potential (at least for total unit sales).

Thanks for sharing this Franco!
_________________________
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"You want to go where?"



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#158620 - 12/12/11 12:44 PM Re: Wood stove/charging device [Re: Franco]
aimless Offline
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Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 3292
Loc: Portland, OR
While I agree that this is not a product that will attract many lightweight or ultralight backpackers, I found it to be amazing and it looks to be very well-designed. If the power unit is rugged enough for its intended use then I take my hat off to the designer.

goodjob

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#158622 - 12/12/11 01:32 PM Re: Wood stove/charging device [Re: aimless]
Rick_D Offline
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Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 2939
Loc: NorCal
I think it could offer a viable option for small groups on extended unsupported trips, or simply where wood is plentiful. It wouldn't be difficult to figure where break-even occurs compared to traditional stove+fuel options. Heck, I'd love one for car camping, just because.

Where it has vast implications is the developing world, where fuel gathering is a significant everyday task, deforestation is a grave problem, and smoke-related health problems shorten lifespans significantly. An efficient self-powered fan-driven cookstove is orders of magnitude more efficient than an open cookfire, which would address all three problems.
_________________________
--Rick

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#158631 - 12/12/11 02:24 PM Re: Wood stove/charging device [Re: Rick_D]
oldranger Offline
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Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: California (southern)
It will be interesting to see how this gadget plays out when it encounters the real world. We backpack in interesting times. We are beginning to use more and more electronics and hence need to recharge and power them, even in the wilderness where wieght and bulk is a consideration. What will be the winning technology? My guess is that solar will be the big winner, but we shall see......

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#158639 - 12/12/11 04:23 PM Re: Wood stove/charging device [Re: oldranger]
Dryer Offline

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Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3591
Loc: Texas
Welcome back to the age of steam! grin I'd suggest a campfire or camp stove will generate enough steam to power all sorts of "pocket" engines and generators. Some of the hobby steam turbine generators I've seen weight only 3-4 ounces. YouTube has hundreds of ideas for this kind of thing and might be fun in the field.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zD2ERF2s8hE
http://www.ministeam.com/acatalog/Steam_Engine_Accessories.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENsnutreEjQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPX2grfJwsg
_________________________
paul, texas KD5IVP

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#158641 - 12/12/11 04:54 PM Re: Wood stove/charging device [Re: Dryer]
Franco Offline
member

Registered: 04/05/04
Posts: 1010
Loc: Australia
I reserved one (and so has a mate of mine) mostly to support the development of the bigger version , the one designed for the third world countries.

The village where my parents grew up (in the Italian alps) still had many houses with open fires when I was in my teens (I cooked on them...) and folk that used them all their life did suffer from the effect of smoke.
I saw the same thing in Nepal a few years ago .
A stove that can charge multiple devices at the same time as heating and cooking will make a big difference to the life of folk in remote areas .
Just having a light on will help...

Back to the small version.
Obviously a wood burning stove is only practical where you can burn wood and it is plentiful, however a solar panel is also only practical where the sun is shining and for many hours a day.
Often the two do not coincide. So I see the BioLite and solar panels complementing each other rather than competing.

Franco
BTW, here is another version of a fan forced portable wood burning stove :
http://www.solhuma.com/products.php?idCatPri=2&lang=en&idCatLevel=16&idPro=9
($129 here in Melbourne)

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#158650 - 12/12/11 07:55 PM Re: Wood stove/charging device [Re: Franco]
oldranger Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: California (southern)
At least where you are dealing with fixed installations, a wind turbine could work nicely. I first used solar in the Channel Islands (USA) where we either had sunshine or wind. The small turbines developed for yachts worked very nicely.

I can see the future. Every summit and windy pass will have a solar panel and wind turbine, complete with the proper outlets for every cell phone, flashlight, and PLB....

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#158662 - 12/13/11 01:17 PM Re: Wood stove/charging device [Re: Franco]
Heather-ak Offline
member

Registered: 07/11/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Fairbanks, AK
I'm going to keep an eye on this - we are going off grid and I can see using the bigger version. I wonder if they could make something like this to go on a woodstove?

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#158708 - 12/13/11 09:43 PM Re: Wood stove/charging device [Re: Heather-ak]
Franco Offline
member

Registered: 04/05/04
Posts: 1010
Loc: Australia
Heather
I really don't know much at all about it , but you could start here :
http://www.tellurex.com/products/power.php
and or search under Seebeck or Peltier power generators.
From what I see the output is limited to low wattage suitable only for some minimal lighting or charging portable devices .
Franco

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#158714 - 12/14/11 10:12 AM Re: Wood stove/charging device [Re: Heather-ak]
Dryer Offline

Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3591
Loc: Texas
Heather, this is really old tech. You can buy thermoelectric chips and build your own. http://www.tegpower.com/pro3.htm
Add a .30 cent voltage regulator and you're done. This would recharge your smartphone but you'll be tending your fire for many hours. The third world implications with this thing don't make sense to me. I know missionaries that build serious power-plants, fueled by biogas, that charge big batteries for villages. They don't need itty bitty chargers for smartphones, and they don't fuel their stoves all day.

I've messed with Seebeck and Peltier devices in the past and found them inefficient....but fun. This is why I posted earlier about steam power (what your house runs on now!) For about $10 you can build a simple/tiny steam turbine that will run on barely boiling water and put out a bit more power than a thermoelectric chip. To get 15v out of that chip above, you'd need to have it cook at 500F degrees. Boiling water is 212F, so less heat/fire is required for the same output, for steam. I'm way over-simplifying here but this is why power-plants still use steam and not thermocouples.

Any of these things will require hours of fire to do anything useful....think how long it takes to charge devices when you plug them into your wall. Now, convert that to logs/campgas/esbit tabs, etc.
_________________________
paul, texas KD5IVP

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#158721 - 12/14/11 12:23 PM Re: Wood stove/charging device [Re: Dryer]
Rick_D Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 2939
Loc: NorCal
Discarding the notion of using them to charge other gizmos, an affordable, enclosed, fan-powered wood (or other solid fuel) -burning stove is vastly more efficient and protective of health than an open hearth. More, here.

Global cookstove initiative

A local organization, Solar Cookers International, has been taking the concept a step further with fuel-free cooking.

Solar Cookers International

I love this stuff.

Cheers,

Originally Posted By Dryer
The third world implications with this thing don't make sense to me. I know missionaries that build serious power-plants, fueled by biogas, that charge big batteries for villages. They don't need itty bitty chargers for smartphones, and they don't fuel their stoves all day.

_________________________
--Rick

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#158725 - 12/14/11 01:09 PM Re: Wood stove/charging device [Re: Dryer]
oldranger Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: California (southern)
Thank you for an informative reply. Looking at the thing casually, it didn't seem to generate that much electricity. So I could envision feeding a wood fire - just to generate electricity? Somehow I think solar will eventually be a better technique...

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#158729 - 12/14/11 01:56 PM Re: Wood stove/charging device [Re: oldranger]
aimless Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 3292
Loc: Portland, OR
What I like about this design is not its potential to charge a portable device from a USB port. That seems to me more like a marketing gimmick (can you tell I don't own a GPS?). I'm more impressed by the clever use of feedback, where the heat of the fire powers the fan that makes the fire burn much hotter.

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#158730 - 12/14/11 02:04 PM Re: Wood stove/charging device [Re: oldranger]
Rick_D Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 2939
Loc: NorCal
To echo Aimless' answer, it's to drive an integrated fan that increases stove efficiency--both the amount of heat generated and a more complete combustion. So, a hotter, cleaner stove than a passive design offers for folks off the grid. Think turbo!

I'm no EE so don't know whether the design could be advanced to the point where you can shunt off excess electricity to charge a storage battery. Conceptually, I could envision it but it would be a side benefit, not the system's main intent.

Cheers,

Rick

Originally Posted By oldranger
Thank you for an informative reply. Looking at the thing casually, it didn't seem to generate that much electricity. So I could envision feeding a wood fire - just to generate electricity? Somehow I think solar will eventually be a better technique...
_________________________
--Rick

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#158731 - 12/14/11 02:28 PM Re: Wood stove/charging device [Re: Rick_D]
Franco Offline
member

Registered: 04/05/04
Posts: 1010
Loc: Australia
"The third world implications with this thing don't make sense to me'
The project started with the intention to make an affordable smokeless and efficient stove that can burn organic matter for third world countries, not a way to produce electricity.
"smokeless" is the key word.
If you ever visit areas where open fires are used inside the home you will see the effect that smoke has on people.
The "producing electricity" bit is a bonus not the primary reason for it.
In fact the more common version of the stove will be the one without the power out. That is because it will be cheaper and probably will last longer.
The camp stove (again....) is a by-product of that project...
Type "biolite stove" into Google images to see some of the prototypes made.
Franco

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#158735 - 12/14/11 04:37 PM Re: Wood stove/charging device [Re: Franco]
OregonMouse Offline
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
Remember that for Heather, solar power is not an option in Alaska winters! Summer, of course, is a different story.
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

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#158746 - 12/14/11 08:08 PM Re: Wood stove/charging device [Re: Franco]
Dryer Offline

Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3591
Loc: Texas
Quote:
"smokeless" is the key word.

Quote:
If you ever visit areas where open fires are used inside the home you will see the effect that smoke has on people.


Right, Franco, I follow that....and there are a gazillion more ways to achieve that end then to harness a little chip and fan, and to bigger effect. I'm on the board of an Ethiopian mission that drills clean water wells and provides biogas tech to people who normally burn cow poop for fuel and drink from chocolate milk colored water sources...their whole lives. We teach people how to make clean gas...cleaner than wood or manure....fires for cooking and heating, from waste.
I once watched a kid weld a pipe using a wood fire boosted with the air from a car tire innertube. They know about forges. They don't know about the convenience of turning a knob and getting fire and heat.
_________________________
paul, texas KD5IVP

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#158748 - 12/14/11 11:55 PM Re: Wood stove/charging device [Re: Dryer]
Franco Offline
member

Registered: 04/05/04
Posts: 1010
Loc: Australia
Dryer
No offence but all you have offered are "ideas" but not a working product.
Matter of fact I don't have a working product either but I do think that within six months there will be one that you can buy and use.
(if the Bio guys deliver...)
Steam engines and wind power sounds all good but where is a product that someone without knowledge,tools and a lot of time can buy ?
This sentence epitomises what I am trying to say :
"Heather, this is really old tech. You can buy thermoelectric chips and build your own. http://www.tegpower.com/pro3.htm
Add a .30 cent voltage regulator and you're done."
Either you are oversimplifying to the extreme or you are just kidding .
The reason I am saying that is if Heather me or you buy that thermoelectric chip and that 30c voltage regulator we would have again an idea not a product. Those two bits alone are not going to do anything at all.
But I do not have a horse in this race anyway, however it isn't as simple or as cheap as you say...
Franco

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#158756 - 12/15/11 09:32 AM Re: Wood stove/charging device [Re: Franco]
Dryer Offline

Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3591
Loc: Texas
Quote:
No offence but all you have offered are "ideas" but not a working product.

Oh, no offence meant or taken, Franco, but I've built and use simple generators of various kinds, for many years. Not ideas, but working tools. The "ideas" have already been invented for this kind of thing. How practical they are is another question. One of my passions is amateur radio (ham radio operator)from the back country and alternate power sources are part of the game. That chip I referenced simply needs to be placed on the side of a pot of boiling water, and presto...you have voltage, but not much current. Enough to drive a small fan and stoke your fire. Stick that chip to the side of a Sierra stove and you ditch the battery. I noted the Biolite folks aren't publishing their power producing specifications, that I could find, but I know something about thermoelectric and the chip I referenced is likely the one they use, or similar. However, I hope their stove is a great success and I bet you see it evolve if it takes off. It's a good turn-key product...when it becomes a product, for "those that don't have the knowledge or tools." My nature is to build my own, and have. DIY is an industry unto itself, Franco. wink
One of the sections of this forum is "make your own gear", which I personally do more than buy "products". I have a couple of plans in that section that people have built and have spread around the internet. I'm not interested in offering products for sale, but know many people who share a passion for 'make your own gear'. Since by brain has been chewing on this "camp power" idea, I'm now thinking up a tiny but efficient (and lightweight) generator, from off-the-shelf parts, that can be coupled to a small collapsible wind mill, or steam turbine...but you won't see a "product" offered.
In fact, I doubt I'd hike with such a mess unless radio operation is the goal.
Solar, thermoelectric, wind, steam, static (what's that? grin), are all possibilities....how practical, is the question. I'll say this...I'm not wild about burning campgas or firewood (illegal in most parks) to charge my iphone or radio batts. Clean burning fire methods have been around for centuries...nothing new there.
_________________________
paul, texas KD5IVP

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#158774 - 12/15/11 02:58 PM Re: Wood stove/charging device [Re: Dryer]
Franco Offline
member

Registered: 04/05/04
Posts: 1010
Loc: Australia
"That chip I referenced simply needs to be placed on the side of a pot of boiling water, and presto...you have voltage, but not much current"
No it does not , not for more than a few minutes.
You need to keep the other side of the chip cool, and that is the tricky part.
It can be achieved with water cooling or as in the case of the Bio with a fan, however if you had looked at the link to the prototypes you would have seen that many prototypes (read :loads of time and money...) have been built. You don't keep trying if you have a working one .

For the benefit of others, again I will point out that if you try it to do something like that yourself it isn't anywhere as easy or cheap as some try to tell you it is.
Franco

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