I am about to purchase my first one man tent. I really like the concept and designs of the Tarpent Contrail and Moment. Has anyone tried both of these tents and have an opinion on which is better for condensation, set-up, and comfort? The main difference I could see was the size of the vestibule. The Notch looked nice too, but I have been backpacking in a 2 person tent alone. I think the Notch would be too narrow for me.

I've used my Contrail quite a bit; I've now switched so that my go-to tent is a Lightheart Designs solo, but I sort of "kicked the tires" on the Moment before I bought it.

Still, I don't have enough experience with the Moment to really compare them. I like the Contrail just fine. I think the Moment would handle wind better, though with intelligent site selection that Contrail is okay. For the weight, the Contrail is plenty roomy inside; I find that I have to sort of scoot my butt towards the door to sit up comfortably in it, but that's not a huge big deal.

Brian, wondered if you'd be interested on commenting on condensation with Tarp Tent's?

I had a Rainbow, which I think is a wonderful, roomy, solo tent. BUT, I experienced quite a bit of condensation, even here in dry Montana. Not unusual in that these truly are single wall TARP tents. But it soured me a bit.

Looking at the tents and reading the specs, it seems the Rainbow has more user-friendly headroom than either the Contrail or Moment.

I'm looking hard at the Notch... that design makes a heap of sense to me being a true "tent" (ie, double wall).

Thoughts?

I have spent about 60 nights in the Moment, at various locations from high mountains to coast, and I estimate that 9 out of 10 times I have had significant condensation. It dries fine if you leave it set up in half an hour sunshine, but my style is to get up early so that has not worked for me, so I am always packing a wet tent. I end up drying it out at lunch break. Because of the under-tent strap design, if you turn it inside-out to dry the inside, it is quite a puzzle to get it turned right side out. That is a bit frustrating.

For me the size is no problem. In fact it is way too big for me. The footprint required to set it up has limited my choices of campsites. The 2-door models probably offer better ventilation. The Moment is very sturdy in wind. The floor as leaked a few times in heavy downpours (4 inches of rain in an hour) when my site got flooded. I have also found that I really need 6 stakes to properly set it up.

I would not buy another because of these "fuss factors". But the tent performs well enough that I will use it until it wears out.

Condensaton, I find it happens in single wall and double wall tents. Unless one is better ventilated than the other.

The question that I see is when do you want to wipe the dampness off. I prefer to wake up, use my camp towl and wipe down the single wall inner surface and I am done. Pack up and be off.

With the double wall, you still have some dampness, but it needs to be dried off before packing up. I always find it a pain to be wiping down the rain fly when its loose.

Of coarse this is just my prefference.

With a double wall, the rainfly can be separated from the inner tent, if you carefully take it down. The inner tent stays dry. You can then vigorously shake most of the moisture off the fly. When I try to wipe down the inside of my Moment, it just drips all over me. I think it is a question of how many continuous days you plan on being in weather with no opportunity to dry out and if you are in warm-wet vs cold-wet conditions.

I heard a rumor that backpackers who live in Seattle have gills. PS- I lived in Seattle one year in college- it rained 90 days straight! I think you guys are a lot more tolerant of condensation than we whimpy Sierra backpackers.

Certainly where you hike makes a big difference. On the PCT I was quite content with a single walled tent until I got back to my own (WA) state, and even then it's not really all that bad IMO. A few nights I've found myself waking in the night to find so much condensation that I pulled out one of those quick drying towels and used that (repeatedly wringing it out) to eliminate the majority of the moisture. And indeed a person puts the tent away "less than perfectly dry" many times, but that's not a big deal generally. It's certainly a factor, however, if you have significant humidity of any sort (hot or cold). I do prefer my lightheart solo now for this reason (condensation is mostly on the fly, not the netting).


True almost always, I think, but FWIW the Lightheart gear design is an exception with the fly sort of sewn-in, permanently attached. My personal backpacking "style" rarely leaves me time to leave the fly out to dry anyway, so it's not a drawback to me, and easier/faster pitching, less fiddle-factor with it being all one unit.

As to another comment about Seattle-area hikers having gills: this is an evil untruth spread by jealous people from unhappily drier states. It is, however, true that when they reach puberty, our children typically have an operation to remove the webbing between their fingers and toes so that they can mingle successfully with out-of-state folk. And we all do keep row-boats in our houses for those many days when the streets are flooded. And yes, you can tell which way north is here by seeing which side the moss is growing on any local citizen. And in the summer time we don't tan, we rust.

But gills --- I draw the line at gills. How ridiculous.

I am a Washington state native, left at 18 and have no intention of going back except for visits. I have degraded into one of those fair-weather California backpackers that we used to make fun of!

Tarptents are good solid tents but some models have condensation issues. Everyone has a different take on condensation- to some it is a minor issue, to others a major factor. I thought I would adjust to it, but have not. Some people do not like that SilNylon stretches when wet. That has not been a major issue for me. I have to get up once if not twice at night anyway so I just tighten the tent at those times. If condensation really bothers you then do not get a Moment.

Aw heck, deal with it, GillMan! Many of us suffered through "Waterworld."

Having learned backpacking in the Cascades and Olympics, the first order was already keeping rain out, condensation was a pretty distant second. Friends and I often used self-rigged tarps in lieu of tents unless we knew it was going to be soaking wet. Headroom, living space and circulation kept condensation at bay. Of course, plenty of trees for rigging.

Have to say, my best all-around PNW shelter was my EW Goretex tent, which handled every type of weather and never had a condensation problem. Too bad about those disappearing.

Have a TT Virga and Cloudburst II and they're not usually condensation collectors, but can be on calm cold nights. Problem with both is the flat ceiling portions rain rather than slide the condensation to the sides. Teepee type shelters just drip at the edges, away from the groundcloths.

Have not given up on somebody re-perfecting the SW, WPB, self-supporting shelter.



Cheers,

I'd have to put myself in the "not able to adjust" category... I didn't like the condensation in my Rainbow. I'm a fan of TT, the owner, quality, and commitment to sew in the USA.

Having said all that, the TT Notch may be my huckleberry.

I don't know about that, but it is a bit harder to find north without a compass because here in the PNW moss grows on all sides of the trees!

As for Tarptents and other single wall tents, after suffering for years with a Sierra Designs Clip Flashlight which had to be closed up tight in even the slightest drizzle, and in which the condensation on the fly constantly dripped through to the inner tent, I'd far rather have the condensation where I can reach it to wipe it off!

There are ways of mitigating condensation--don't camp in valley bottoms or close to water, camp up on a knoll where there is more breeze, pitch under trees. Also, it's important to keep the tent as open as possible--if you have to close up tight for a bout of horizontal rain coming from all directions, open it up as soon as the horizontal spell is over.

Tarptent now makes several double wall tents which, for those wanting them, are a good solution. Unlike most of the big US companies' tents, the Tarptent Scarp, Notch, Stratospire allow you to pitch the outer fly first and remove it last so that the inner tent doesn't get wet when it's raining when you pitch or break camp. Actually, the inner tent clips to the underside of the fly, so you can pitch the whole thing at once while keeping the inner dry.

Thank you for the replies. I will let you know what I decide and how it works out.

I have no experience with any of these tents. I have often wondered about the legendary fish people of the North West.

It's all true.

I would look like that too (frowns) if I had to live up there, hahahahah! Just kidding!.... sorta

I have and have owned:
Tarptent Virga (obsolete)
Tarptent Double Rainbow
Tarptent Cloudburst (obsolete)
Tarptent Rainshadow (1st generation)

I’ve sold the Cloudburst a while back and the others I loan out to my group(s).

The 2 tents I use the most are: GG Squall Classic and Zpacks Hexamid. I’ve noticed these tents don’t have near the condensation than my Tarptents. And it has been nice not to retighten after staking. So I often wonder if Silnylon attracts more condensation than Spinnaker or Cuben Fiber.

-Barry

I've frequently had to tighten the guylines on my GG Squall Classic--I haven't determined whether it's the spinnaker fabric or the guylines, but it appears to be the former. It seems to stretch as much as silnylon when it starts raining. Except for that, it's a great tent! Fortunately, it's really easy to tighten the guylines from inside the tent.

Unfortunately this wonderful tent has been discontinued by GG. I have the 2009 version which IMHO is one of the best examples of a great Henry Shires design (the Squall Classic was designed by Henry Shires of Tarptent and manufactured by Gossamer Gear). If I give it up, it will only be because I prefer the Z Packs Hexamid Twin. I bought the latter, will give it a good trial throughout this year, and then next fall I'll have to decide which one I want to sell.

I think it might depend on your own personal style, as suggested by your replies here. I have gone from single wall to double wall and back to a well designed single wall. But for poor weather conditions like rain (it happens occasionally here in the Pacific Northwest)I would suffer the extra weight of a double wall tent. I think you can "make do" with either so it comes down to weight and expense in many cases. Did you see this video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PATi6wZujs

Why does not anyone do a You_Tube video of putting up a tent in a real rainstorm! Or video clips througout a several day period of nasty weather. Show the condensation. Show you wiping it off. Show getting in and out while rain pours down. Show taking down a soaking wet tent.

There is rain and there is a storm. Steady drizzle in wooded area is different than being in a high intensity convective storm at high altitude with a 40 mph wind. That condensation does not stay on the ceiling when hail pounds down on the tent. I would like to see some real objective tent testing under controlled conditions (like in a raining wind tunnel) at some testing facility. Put some artificial steamy bodies inside. Vary the temperature. See how each responds. For now all we have are antecdotal evidence from a wide range of backpackers who go out in a wide range of conditions. I honestly think there are few backpackers who put their tents to the real test.

I have a few ideas: First, in "horizontal rain," as I call it, folks are more interested in keeping the camera dry. Second, in real life situations people are too busy trying to get the tent up and get under cover to bother with photography. (Been there, done that!) Who is going to stand outside in a violent thunderstorm with hail coming down trying to shoot a video when they can get under cover? Such a video really requires a setup where the photographer can stay dry under another shelter or in a vehicle close by. It's pretty hard to arrange such a setup to coincide with nasty weather! Third, wind tunnel testing is extremely expensive (the answer I got when I asked about it).

Backpackinglight plans to publish a series on "Storm Resistance of Ultralight Shelters." Wind resistance and snow loading will be tested in actual high winds and snow, evidently in windy/snowy areas near BPL headquarters in the Montana Rockies. This is described as a "long term initiative" so I am not holding my breath for testing results in the near future. And of course the articles will require a paid subscription to read.

I agree that this is extremely important information for anyone looking to buy a tent. This info is usually left out of reviews, unless the reviewer just happened to encounter a severe storm during the testing process. Presumably any reputable tent developer has tested the prototypes in high winds and snow (which can be encountered any month of the year in places like the high Rockies). The prototype of the one I bought recently was tested during a thru-hike of the Continental Divide Trail, so presumably weathered Rocky Mountain thunderstorms; it did get well-snowed on in Colorado's San Juans in September.

There's also the interesting question of whether it's better to test a shelter under controlled conditions (such as a wind tunnel or the cheaper substitute, pitching the tent on a platform in back of the truck and then driving down the road) or in actual nasty weather in which the wind seemingly comes from all directions at once, rain is horizontal, several inches of hail accumulate, etc. The latter is more realistic but far harder to control.

I agree with all of that, WD. Even for long distance hikers, while there are certainly many more nights spent out doors in which to test, the fact is that most of the nights just aren't that bad. Particularly so insofar as with experience a person learns more about site selection to mitigate the various weather challenges coming at the tent. And long distance hikers typically do more miles in a day giving more options to enhance that site selection factor, things such as "walk high but sleep low" when doing mountain passes and the like.

I've certainly endured some difficult weather conditions in my tent, but surprisingly few relative to number of miles walked. most of the PCT is "pretty dry", just WA state can sometimes be a challenge. On the AT I spent most nights in wooden shelters along the trail. The CDT offered more, but still --- a whole lot of nice nights in there too.

So I guess add to what OM said about folks not wanting to get their cameras wet (true) the sort of "experience" factor in mitigating how much a person will put their tent to the test. I think that a person realistically can get more testing done with a friend holding a garden hose in their backyard than they might get in quite a number of nights on the trail. Wind is a little harder for the average person to test for. And even then, holding power of selected stakes in the specific soil in a specific spot can be a factor ...

Something about tents that amuses me is the reluctance by many to at least consider that maybe they can't set up a tent correctly...
When you see a car against a tree most will blame the driver not the car, yet when a tent falls down it appears that it always is the tent's fault.
oddly I see many tents badly set up (occasionally even by the manufacturers) , particularly stakes not inserted correctly (or wrong stakes in use...) and guylines extended in the wrong direction.

Anyway as for tents used in bad weather...
This is a clip that I shot during a particularly wet trip :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31PNJTJwd...mp;feature=plcp
To get the idea of just how much it rained note the level of the river from the first to the last shots.
Where you see 2E (Toui the rat) in the first shot , it is well under water the day after...
( I have a really crappy video option in my "waterproof" camera and have great difficulty in transcoding that format to one I can edit, hence the bad sound and short clips)

Franco

I do not think it matters so much if testing is in controlled conditions or outdoors, as long as every tent is tested at the same time if outdoors. I would love to see a "tent festival" where all manufacturers bring their tents and set them up and live in them for the duration of a 3 day storm! Perhaps we could do several at different locations in different conditions. As a consumer, I just want an objective comparison between tents.

Brian- I agree that not everyone gets to choose the best campsite. A few times the best available to me were still marginal. I want my tent performance to be "robust", not just perform when set up perfectly in a perfect site. I cannot choose to set up under sheltered trees when I am at 11,000 feet and there are no trees!

Franco- I have been mountaineering and backpacking for 45 years, used a bundle of tents, tarps and bivys. The Tarptent Moment is the first tent I have ever had that presents a serious condensation issue. Just saying it is "pilot error" does not get anything solved. I like the tent, other than the condensation issue. Solve that, and you have a really good tent. A small a change as a second door may do the trick. Or even easier - larger vents.

To replicate the weather that W_D and I are used to (and she spent more years in Wyoming than I have), the storm in Franco's video would have to have started with a series of violent thunderstorms, extremely high winds (seemingly from all directions at once), a series of 20-30-minute cloudbursts (horizontal rain) including several inches of hail, with maybe a 20-30 minute break between, finally settling down to what Franco experienced, a steady hard rain and, by morning, several inches (or more) of snow. Of course, in places like Wyoming's Wind Rivers, all this would be taking place above timberline. There may be some shelter behind boulders or krummholz, but not a lot.

I've been there, done that, any number of times, and I know that W_D has too.

I remember at age 11 waking up to find my parents turning around the tent--with me in it--because the storm winds decided to turn around and come from the opposite direction. That was in the Uintas of Utah.

One year, in northern Colorado, we had solid rain for the first two weeks of a 6-week trip. About 3-4 pm, just to vary things a little, we'd get a thunderstorm with several inches of hail. The only thing unusual was that we never got snowed on. It cleared up the day we went into town to resupply--a good thing, because my mother was ready to head for home!

Another issue is that most backpacking trips are for a 2-3 day weekend, with close attention paid to the weather forecast. That makes it even harder to give a tent the ultimate test!

Franco, did 2E replace your cat?

Wandering Daisy
I was referring to the "my tent fell down/my stake popped out" type of guys , condensation can be user error but often it isn't.
Location is one of the crucial points as it is the size of the occupant.
Particularly in the Moment (and similar one hoop tents, for example Google "Akto /Laser and condensation" (note that those are double wall tents...) height is important because the closer your head is to the inner or fly the more condensation you will have. Sleeping on a thick mat will get you closer.
And that is why some will say they always have condensation inside the Moment and other will say never or hardly ever.
For the record I do get wet walls inside mine but I just wipe them down, it does not bother me at all.
So the other point is how we tolerate a particular condition.
Ever noticed how some go ballistic as soon as one fly is about ?
Well , I almost never use any insect killer (growing up in a high country farm environment we always had flying things about, never seen anyone using anything for that...) so again it is about what we are used to/can tolerate.
BTW, covering the vestibule of the single hoop tents does help but will not eliminate condensation.
Same for the top "curtain" both my mate and I have tried that for a few trips and then decided not to bother...
Another point.. I sweat very little, my mate is both larger than me and sweats a lot, so right next to me he will get more condensation in his Moment than I get in mine.
Franco

I started backpacking in earnest in 1975. I've climbed, bivouacked, and backpacked in every season and nearly every climatic possibility with most types of shelters from simple tarps, and 4 season mountain tents to 3 season tents and the Tarptent.

Honestly, I've never experienced greater condensation in moderate conditions than with the Tarptent Rainbow I owned last year.

It's a beautifully made and thoughtfully designed "tent" but it just doesn't work for me, and I'm no great "sweater" either.

I hate these threads, at least the indecisive perfectionist in me does. I need a tent (ignoring the fact that I have no money for a decent one right now), but reading these stories I can't help but feel like no matter what I pick, I'll have picked wrong...

Think of it as the glass being half full. That is, no matter what you pick, you will have picked right.

There often isn't a right and wrong in such matters. It's just do what works for you.

I think it's more a matter of appropriateness. If you are only out one or two nights at a time, and you are watching the forecast like a hawk before you go and canceling if it's going to rain, any tent will do. At that point it's just in case. If you are going no matter what, you would rather have something that is roomy enough no matter how many hours it rains.

My favorite tent for rainy trips is a hammock.

In the old days, when we did a weekend trip and expected perfect weather, we simply left the tent home and "cowboy" camped. My issue with a tent is that the tent is purchased for foul weather (or really thick mosquitoes), not good weather. Why carry the extra weight if not needed? I want my tent to hold up to wind, rain, hail, snow. In good weather small tarp, bivy sack or nothing works fine, all for one pound or under. A good tent is a good investment. Watch sales and you can pick up a good one for about $250. Otherwise, invest in a good simple tarp. Black Diamond makes what esentially is a tent fly that you set up on trekking poles. It is in the $100 range. You can purchase an inner tent later. Lori uses a hammock - I have never used one, but that is something else to consider.

Oregon Mouse
2E is my mate's mascot, not mine.
I still have one cat , Lucy, she is over 20 but doing well...
Franco

I've cut a deal with Sir Richard Branson for a Virgin Air heli to drop the shelter of my choice once I figure out what the weather is up to--otherwise it's always a crapshoot when packing. Having solo and two-person Tarptents, I can say they offer great shelter for weight, but both have condensation, wind resistance and pitching-on-rocky-area issues. Nevertheless I use them, frequently and most of the time, they're great. It's the ten percent I worry about.

A good deal of backpacking involves management by exception.

Speaking of hammocks, last weekend I had, for the first time, two perfectly sized, shaped and placed trees to hang from. Never imagined this would happen; usually I have one that's three-feet in diameter and one ten-incher bent at a twenty-degree angle. What a luxury! Tried a new tensioning scheme that worked, too. Still figuring out the pad thing, though.

Cheers,

Regarding condensation: I'm not personally troubled by a damp canopy. Once, when using sewn-in floor, it was a problem in a coated tent during heavy foggy snowfall around freezing(no drainage) but this isn't recommended. Is another reason NOT to use floors.

Also, regarding the rainy PNW climate, I note that the driest month in Tacoma (0.58 average July rainfall) is drier than all but the three driest months of the year in Phoenix.

I am sorry it took so long to post regarding the tent I ended up purchasing. I wanted to take it out on a few trips before I posted my thoughts. I ended up buying the LightHeartGear Wedge. I absolutely love it. I haven't gotten to try the Wedge under extreme conditions with high winds or a downpour, however, I stayed dry in steady rain and didn't have any condensation. It has loads of room for a one man tent. I can fit my pack inside easily if I want or even my 10 year old son or dog. It's extremely light at 28.5 oz. It can be set up with 4 stakes but I prefer 9 stakes. It takes me less than 2 minutes to setup with my hiking poles. The titanium stakes and carbon rainfly pole that Judy sells are ultralight. The tent packs very small. My favorite aspect of the tent is all the options for setting it up. The attached rainfly can be fully closed or open. The wedge can be raised about 3ft to allow me to see out of the tent even in rain while staying dry. Or I can have either side fully open while the other side is closed. In other words, I get amazing views while under cover. Here is a link to the LightHeartGear website: http://www.lightheartgear.com/index.php?...6f89edc38a81f6f