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#165291 - 04/25/12 09:06 AM Re: Water purity overkill? [Re: sandia]
Blue_Ridge_Ninja Offline
member

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 98
Loc: North Georgia
I'd rather spend a few minutes dealing with a filter than risk dealing with a stomach bug for days.

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#165293 - 04/25/12 09:26 AM Re: Water purity overkill? [Re: Blue_Ridge_Ninja]
Gershon Offline
member

Registered: 07/08/11
Posts: 1110
Loc: Colorado
Sandia,

I don't think this is a group that has much personal bias. I've looked through the old posts of the more experienced backpackers here and I've seen a gradual shift in their ideas as they got more experience. In some cases, their advice is the complete opposite of what it was last year.

In your case, you are focused solely on Giardia as a source of the intestional distress. Let's say there are 10 bugs that cause intestional distress. I consider any study that declares water "safe" because of the absence of just one of these bugs is flawed.

In my opinion, I have two choices. I can carry a filter or I can carry more toilet paper. I prefer the filter.
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#165294 - 04/25/12 09:26 AM Re: Water purity overkill? [Re: Blue_Ridge_Ninja]
DTape Offline
member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 666
Loc: Upstate NY
Who was it that said, "we pack our fears."?

One thing is for certain, we are all spread out across the country/world. Each of the areas we frequent has differing levels of human impact. Front country is different than backountry. Intensive use areas are different than wilderness areas. Areas with (more) stagnant surface water are different than areas with spring fed sources. A major river with frequent swimmers/boaters is different than an off trail stream. All of these differences play a role in the probability of contaminated water and other safety issues. The question of "overkill" is thus dependent on the area and the specific situation. This is true for all risks. Most of us experienced folk have enough experience and knowledge to understand when to (and not to) take calculated risks. It is my opinion that the fear of most things in the backcountry by the public at-large is overblown. But for the newbies, this is good. They will take the precautions until they gain the experience and knowledge to reduce those fears to match the reality of the specific trip conditions. Unfortunately, what happens is the newbies will take extra precautions for low-risk possibilities at the expense of taking precautions for the higher risk possibilities.
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#165295 - 04/25/12 10:49 AM Re: Water purity overkill? [Re: DTape]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
Originally Posted By DTape
But for the newbies, this is good. They will take the precautions until they gain the experience and knowledge to reduce those fears to match the reality of the specific trip conditions. Unfortunately, what happens is the newbies will take extra precautions for low-risk possibilities at the expense of taking precautions for the higher risk possibilities.


I am doing a big (50 people so far signed up) potluck and presentation for newbies in our group who want to backpack. I am going to set up a white board and develop a list of their concerns and fears, and then my top 10 concerns, regarding backpacking.

I think I can predict that the lists will be radically different - I bet you animals will be at the top of their list. Depending on how much reading they've done and whether they took REI courses, they might list waterbourne pathogens.

I already know that my list will have clean water pretty far down on the concerns - since I have plenty of information on that matter, both experiential and the information other experienced hikers in my area have provided to me. (Animals will probably be grouped together on #10.)
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#165296 - 04/25/12 11:03 AM Re: Water purity overkill? [Re: lori]
Gershon Offline
member

Registered: 07/08/11
Posts: 1110
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By lori
Originally Posted By DTape
But for the newbies, this is good. They will take the precautions until they gain the experience and knowledge to reduce those fears to match the reality of the specific trip conditions. Unfortunately, what happens is the newbies will take extra precautions for low-risk possibilities at the expense of taking precautions for the higher risk possibilities.


I am doing a big (50 people so far signed up) potluck and presentation for newbies in our group who want to backpack. I am going to set up a white board and develop a list of their concerns and fears, and then my top 10 concerns, regarding backpacking.

I think I can predict that the lists will be radically different - I bet you animals will be at the top of their list. Depending on how much reading they've done and whether they took REI courses, they might list waterbourne pathogens.

I already know that my list will have clean water pretty far down on the concerns - since I have plenty of information on that matter, both experiential and the information other experienced hikers in my area have provided to me. (Animals will probably be grouped together on #10.)


Lori,

This is a great topic. Maybe it should be a separate one. Here is my list.

1. Running out of coffee.
2. Running out of water. (Closely related to 1)
3. Not bringing my coffee cup.
4. Running out of fuel for stove
5. Having 2 lighters break (so I bring 3.)
6. Losing my car keys
7. Completing miles before afternoon thunderstorms

Added: I totally forgot my biggest fear. Having to pee in the middle of the night and having the zipper get stuck all the way up on my mummy sleeping bag. So I never zip it all the way up.

It may sound like a trite list. It's not that other things aren't more important. They are just taken care of. I've found most problems look a lot better after I make a hot cup of coffee.




Edited by Gershon (04/25/12 02:52 PM)
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#165302 - 04/25/12 12:35 PM Re: Water purity overkill? [Re: Gershon]
Heather-ak Offline
member

Registered: 07/11/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Fairbanks, AK
Gershon,

I love it!

1. Running out of water, I start with 3 liters - I've tried to cut down since it is so heavy, but I get "twitchy" thinking about having less.

2. Moose - this is site specific obviously.

3. Broken bones - I often hike by myself.

4. Other people - stupid I know, but Alaska has one of the highest violent crimes against women numbers.

5. forest fires - I've seen one, and that was more than enough - terrifying

6. Getting seriously wet - again sorta site specific, but if I get wet and my synthetic bag is soaked and it gets really cold...

7. Running out of caffeine - more the stupid resulting headache. grin

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#165305 - 04/25/12 01:18 PM Re: Water purity overkill? [Re: Heather-ak]
aimless Online   content
Moderator

Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 3292
Loc: Portland, OR
MODERATOR'S NOTE:

Some of the opinions on this thread have been argued warmly and stated strongly, and I chose to preserve them intact for now, because they make reasonable points, even if they make them a bit provocatively. However, I have just deleted a few posts from this thread that were getting rather too close to the start of a flame war, along with a post which quoted from those posts.

Just a reminder to keep it calm and keep it civil. That's all. Carry on.

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#165308 - 04/25/12 02:00 PM Re: Water purity overkill? [Re: sandia]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Originally Posted By sandia
Filtering has become, undeniably, a prevailing cultural practice; a norm of the subculture of U.S. backpackers.

Yet there is sufficient evidence to suggest that the practice is not a useful means of avoiding disease.


CDC Info on Giardiasis
...

According to the info provided there giardia is found in throughout the nation and there are about 20,000 cases reported each year.

Backpackers among the risk groups for giardiasis.

Filtering water is one of the three ways consistently recommended for backpackers to prevent it when drinking water taken from outdoor sources.

There are references with links to sources for that here too.


Edited by aimless (04/25/12 05:11 PM)
Edit Reason: removed two personally directed remarks
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"You want to go where?"



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#165310 - 04/25/12 02:20 PM Re: Water purity overkill? [Re: aimless]
JPete Offline
member

Registered: 05/28/09
Posts: 304
Loc: Eastern Ontario
Been watching this this thread, but didn't really want to get caught up in the confrontations. Thanks, Aimless.

My experience: I made a very bad misjudgement years ago and got caught without water. I did not treat in those days but carried mil surplus halizone for emergencies. Found a beaver meadow I knew I shouldn't drink from (though I had never heard of giardia), then discovered the pills were years out of date. Decided the dehydration was more dangerous, and drank anyway. Exactly ten days later in New York City, it hit me. Doctor couldn't figure it out (and not knowing about the beaver, I failed to tell him). About three weeks later, the doc decided the situation was life threatening and sent me to the hospital. Minutes before I was to leave for the hospital, doc called with confirmed diagnosis and perscription. Hours later I was ok, just needed rest and fluids. This was 1968, before everybody knew about giardia.

I still treat relatively little water, though as civilization gets closer, that percentage has been increasing. I'm far less confident, and advise most people, in most places, to be prepared to treat (or boil) most or all of their water. I know from experience that much of it is ok, as several here have correctly noted, but the price of guessing wrong is just too high (though a mitigating factor today is that most doctors are familiar with giardia in the areas where it is common).

Just for giggles, the first time I thru-hiked the AT, some hikers noted that a traveler's check for $25 (the price then for a perscription of flagel) was lighter than filters or chemicals. Yeah, sure.

Incidentally, why, on a board devoted to lightweight backpacking, does the very minimal weight of treatment/filtration outweigh the common sense of "better safe than sorry"?

Oh, can't resist the current direction of this thread: yeah,running out of caffiene (coffee or tea) is probably one of my worst fears. And yes, Heather, after all these years in the woods, the only critter that has even threatened to attack me was a big, angry, bull moose.

best, jcp

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#165314 - 04/25/12 02:40 PM Re: Water purity overkill? [Re: JPete]
PerryMK Online   content
member

Registered: 01/18/02
Posts: 1391
Loc: Florida panhandle
Originally Posted By JPete
, the only critter that has even threatened to attack me was a big, angry, bull moose.
I was chased by an armadillo once.

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#165317 - 04/25/12 02:51 PM Re: Water purity overkill? [Re: Heather-ak]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Hmmm... I don't have 10 concerns, but here's what I do have...

1) Other people (I think the Ozarks have one of the highest percentages of people who hike without a clue)

2) A tree or big branch falling on me.

3) Falling and breaking a bone.

4) Twisting an ankle.

Of those four, only the first has happened, and it's mucked up more than a few trips.

That's about it. I finally gave up and started bringing "Taster's Choice" singles and they're light and small and cheap enough to bring plenty extra, so I don't worry about coffee as much anymore blush

Although not a concern, I do get a little disconcerted that I haven't stumbled upon any lost treasure or alien spaceships or any of that other cool stuff that happens to real explorers like Indiana Jones. cry
_________________________
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"You want to go where?"



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#165318 - 04/25/12 02:55 PM Re: Water purity overkill? [Re: PerryMK]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Originally Posted By PerryMK
Originally Posted By JPete
, the only critter that has even threatened to attack me was a big, angry, bull moose.
I was chased by an armadillo once.


I had an encounter with a moose once too. And I chased and caught an armadillo once. In both of those cases I was pretty stupid, but escaped mostly unscathed despite of it.
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#165321 - 04/25/12 03:27 PM Re: Water purity overkill? [Re: PerryMK]
Rick_D Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 2939
Loc: NorCal
Originally Posted By PerryMK
Originally Posted By JPete
, the only critter that has even threatened to attack me was a big, angry, bull moose.
I was chased by an armadillo once.


Because I cannot resist--name that film!

A moose once bit my sister...
No realli! She was Karving her initials on the moose with the sharpened end of an interspace toothbrush given her by Svenge - her brother-in-law - an Oslo dentist and star of many Norwegian movies...
Mynd you, moose bites Kan be pretti nasti...


Cheers,
_________________________
--Rick

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#165323 - 04/25/12 04:03 PM Re: Water purity overkill? [Re: billstephenson]
skcreidc Offline
member

Registered: 08/16/10
Posts: 1590
Loc: San Diego CA
In the interest of thread drift; my biggest fears.

1) cottonmouths. This is my numero uno, man I hate thaaat snake!

2) Moose. That is one mean herbivore. One lucky friend drove up to Alaska in his Ford truck one summer. Somewhere in the southern half of the state, he turned a corner and there was a moose in the road. And it just stood there. So he honked at it, and apparently it took offense to this action because shortly after it proceeded to beat the heck out of the front of the truck using its head. When it apparently felt it had shown the intruder what for, it trotted off quite happy with itself leaving my buddy with a leaking radiator.

3) Traveling with dogs in wolf country.

4) Getting stuck behind a mule train.

5) My daughter is learning how to drive...and I am in the passenger seat while this is happening. Note it's only #5 cause really, I'm just sort of nervous about this.


Bill once described his close encounter with a moose here. If I remember right, it was the moose that came out the worse for it. You don't spit into the wind, pull the mask off the lone ranger, and you don't mess with Bill!


Edited by aimless (04/25/12 05:02 PM)
Edit Reason: inoffensive, but inappropriate, personal reference deleted by a moderator

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#165325 - 04/25/12 04:19 PM Re: Water purity overkill? [Re: billstephenson]
JPete Offline
member

Registered: 05/28/09
Posts: 304
Loc: Eastern Ontario
Suddenly I like the atmosphere in here a whole lot better, so I'll come back and muse a bit.

Yes, I sometimes worry about people. Had a scary encounter with guys carrying guns one time late at night in Harriman Park. But Bill, my encounters with scary people in the woods in the Ozarks involved guys doing funny things with barrels, fire and old Ford radiators. But that was in the 1940s in a dry county.

Like Bill I have gone to the little coffee packets, and pretty much always have a couple of spares in my shirt pocket. Talk about packing my fears!

On the original subject, one factor is folklore for sure. Thru hiking I've heard rather often, "yeah, I've got giardia. Must been that water yesterday." There's enough e.coli around that it may well have been the water, but it ain't giardia, unless they drank bad water eight or ten days ago.

But there's another likely culprit close at hand, so to speak I also recommend to those whose skin will take it to carry enough hand sanitizer that they can use it liberally several times a day. Besides, it's double duty, starts fires as well (especially when combined with magnesium tent stakes). wow.

best jcp

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#165340 - 04/25/12 08:14 PM Re: Water purity overkill? [Re: PerryMK]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
Originally Posted By PerryMK
Originally Posted By JPete
, the only critter that has even threatened to attack me was a big, angry, bull moose.
I was chased by an armadillo once.


Our entire group was driven back up the trail by a grouse, once. She was pretty upset with us for some unknown reason...
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#165341 - 04/25/12 08:30 PM Re: Water purity overkill? [Re: JPete]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
Things I worry about most:

1. Might have to carry that newbie's gear for him. Generally only happens on group trips with the bigger meetup, where folks do not understand what they don't know about themselves and only sign up for "destination" trips, instead of just doing something short.

2. Dehydration. Well, I don't worry about it a lot anymore. But it's probably the last thing I want to have happen to myself. Trip planning and getting updated info on water sources in areas where that can be tricky do away with most of the concern.

3. Stupid little granite pebbles. They hide on granite slab. Barked up my hand when I stepped on one on a slight sloping slab, had an itchy scab there for days after. Could have meant a fracture or something if it'd been steeper. Really, this is a category - clumsy things that could lead to injury that might keep me from hiking out. Leaving a trip plan with someone and having people with me are the just-in-case with a heaping helping of "watch where I step" to do the job.

4. Some nights I sleep like a baby - some nights I just can't. So I have a few mp3 meditation and relaxation tracks on my phone. Comes in handy when you are surrounded by snoring and need to block it out.

5. I keep getting these really annoying holes in my nylon pants. I finally popped for some 5.11 taclites for my leisure backpacking - they should handle sitting on granite with less wear.

hmmmm.... getting harder....

6. Some trips I worry a little about my car, because there was glass at the trailhead. Nothing's happened yet. I keep the car pretty clean.

7. Sometimes I think I might be in danger of hiking too much. Then I come to my senses.

8. There's this guy in the group... well. I just don't hike with him, so now I'm just adding things for the sake of getting to ten.

9. Hangnails.

10. I stepped on a rattlesnake once. All the others got off the trail when I asked them to, and so did the bears I met. When I came across the lion tracks I talked to the lion politely asking him to let me hike on without getting into it with him, and he stayed out of sight and I kept hiking - no harm, no foul. The scorpion I nearly squished didn't sting me before moving into the hole. One of the trout I caught once thrashed around and I got stuck by the hook. Then there was that really nasty infection from the tick bite... but it went away with antibiotics.

That's about it.
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"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#165342 - 04/25/12 09:01 PM Re: Water purity overkill? [Re: lori]
Gershon Offline
member

Registered: 07/08/11
Posts: 1110
Loc: Colorado
Back to the original point about Giardia. Bill, the CDC reference you gave did a very good job pointing out that most cases of Giardia occur in places other than backpacking. Day care centers, public swimming pools, recreational water areas etc. I think backpacking was about 5th on the list.

I recall in the 70's when the Giardia problem started. Backpackers in Colorado were warned to treat their water. Then it spread all over and most people now treat or filter their water. It seems to be working pretty well because not many backpackers get it.


Edited by Gershon (04/25/12 09:01 PM)
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#165345 - 04/25/12 11:46 PM Re: Water purity overkill? [Re: Tye]
Trailrunner Offline
member

Registered: 01/05/02
Posts: 1835
Loc: Los Angeles
Since we're all from different parts of the country/world, hiking in different locales with thousands of different water sources, and since we're all willing to assume different levels of risk, it's really impossible to throw out any kind of blanket statement about water treatment. It's like arguing over which tent is best. Futile at best. If the OP had asked a question like "I'll be camping at XXX Lake this weekend and I was wondering if I need to treat my water", this discussion would be a little less like nailing Jello to the wall.

Three subjects to avoid while talking at parties: religion, politics and water treatment.

Anyway, which firearm should I take to the Sierra with me this weekend? The revolver or the shotgun? grin


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If you only travel on sunny days you will never reach your destination.*

* May not apply at certain latitudes in Canada and elsewhere.

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#165346 - 04/25/12 11:53 PM Re: Water purity overkill? [Re: Trailrunner]
Rick_D Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 2939
Loc: NorCal
Silly, the giardia laser, of course! eek

Originally Posted By Trailrunner

Anyway, which firearm should I take to the Sierra with me this weekend? The revolver or the shotgun? grin


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#165348 - 04/26/12 12:25 AM Re: Water purity overkill? [Re: Rick_D]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
Originally Posted By Rick_D
Silly, the giardia laser, of course! eek

Originally Posted By Trailrunner

Anyway, which firearm should I take to the Sierra with me this weekend? The revolver or the shotgun? grin




The revolver. You can use it to coerce another backpacker into filtering your water for you.

ETA: Note to self - next time a thread needs to die, tell a joke in bad taste....


Edited by lori (04/26/12 07:56 PM)
Edit Reason: put a sock in it, lori!
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#165378 - 04/27/12 10:29 AM Re: Water purity overkill? [Re: Trailrunner]
packlite Online   content

Admin

Registered: 12/22/01
Posts: 2687
Loc: Pullman, WA, USA
Originally Posted By Trailrunner
Since we're all from different parts of the country/world, hiking in different locales with thousands of different water sources, and since we're all willing to assume different levels of risk, it's really impossible to throw out any kind of blanket statement about water treatment. It's like arguing over which tent is best. Futile at best. If the OP had asked a question like "I'll be camping at XXX Lake this weekend and I was wondering if I need to treat my water", this discussion would be a little less like nailing Jello to the wall.


Excellent. Thanks. A number of opinions, thoughts, experiences, research, etc. have been used to "flesh-out" several approaches to water treatment. I think Trailrunner's comment here puts well the discussion into perspective. It seems not much more can be said and it's time to put it to rest.

By the way, what started out as a potential Light Gear Topic actually evolved - rather quickly - into a health and safety topic. Thus, I'm moving it to the appropriate forum.

thanks again,

packlite



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