Backcountry Forum
Backpacking & Hiking Gear

Backcountry Forum
Our long-time Sponsor - the leading source for ultralite/lightweight outdoor gear
 
 
 

Amazon.com
Backpacking Forums
---- Our Gear Store ----
The Lightweight Gear Store
 
 WINTER CAMPING 

Shelters
Bivy Bags
Sleeping Bags
Sleeping Pads
Snow Sports
Winter Kitchen

 SNOWSPORTS 

Snowshoes
Avalanche Gear
Skins
Hats, Gloves, & Gaiters
Accessories

 ULTRA-LIGHT 

Ultralight Backpacks
Ultralight Bivy Sacks
Ultralight Shelters
Ultralight Tarps
Ultralight Tents
Ultralight Raingear
Ultralight Stoves & Cookware
Ultralight Down Sleeping Bags
Ultralight Synthetic Sleep Bags
Ultralight Apparel


the Titanium Page
WM Extremelite Sleeping Bags

 CAMPING & HIKING 

Backpacks
Tents
Sleeping Bags
Hydration
Kitchen
Accessories

 CLIMBING 

Ropes & Cordage
Protection & Hardware
Carabiners & Quickdraws
Climbing Packs & Bags
Big Wall
Rescue & Industrial

 MEN'S APPAREL 

Jackets
Shirts
Baselayer
Headwear
Gloves
Accessories

 WOMEN'S APPAREL 

Jackets
Shirts
Baselayer
Headwear
Gloves
Accessories

 FOOTWEAR 

Men's Footwear
Women's Footwear

 CLEARANCE 

Backpacks
Mens Apparel
Womens Apparel
Climbing
Footwear
Accessories

 BRANDS 

Black Diamond
Granite Gear
La Sportiva
Osprey
Smartwool

 WAYS TO SHOP 

Sale
Clearance
Top Brands
All Brands

 Backpacking Equipment 

Shelters
BackPacks
Sleeping Bags
Water Treatment
Kitchen
Hydration
Climbing


 Backcountry Gear Clearance

Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#162959 - 02/28/12 04:40 PM Water purity overkill?
Tye Offline
member

Registered: 09/15/11
Posts: 76
Loc: Texas
Just got in a Katadyn Hiker Pro. Along with it, I order the Katadyn tablets also. My common sense is telling me doing both is just overkill for here in the states. The filter should be enough, right? Or, should I throw a tablet in as well?

Top
#162961 - 02/28/12 05:22 PM Re: Water purity overkill? [Re: Tye]
Barefoot Friar Offline
member

Registered: 01/23/09
Posts: 176
Loc: Houston, Alabama
I have the filter. It's going to get out everything down to .3 microns, so that's quite a bit.

The tabs will kill whatever is in there, no matter how small, but the dead stuff will still be in the water, along with silt, etc.

I prefer the filter. It's not as light, but I don't like lots of chemicals (ok, any chemicals) in my water.

YMMV.
_________________________
"Stand in the ways and see, and ask for the old paths, where the good way is, and walk in it; then you will find rest for your souls."

Top
#162967 - 02/28/12 06:15 PM Re: Water purity overkill? [Re: Barefoot Friar]
OregonMouse Online   content
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
Double treatment normally isn't necessary, unless you're downstream of human habitation. Other occasions for double treatment might be when the only water source for miles around contains dead animals or something equally tasty.

Since the chlorine dioxide tablets weigh so little, I always take several days' worth just in case something happens to my filter. I hate the taste, but it's better than aborting the trip!
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

Top
#162970 - 02/28/12 06:39 PM Re: Water purity overkill? [Re: OregonMouse]
Rick_D Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 2939
Loc: NorCal
That's basically what I do--always have a few tablets as a fallback, whether day hiking or backpacking. But I don't double-treat.

If I were forced to use really nasty source water I might consider it, but haven't run into that scenario.

Cheers,


Edited by Rick_D (02/28/12 06:39 PM)
_________________________
--Rick

Top
#162974 - 02/28/12 06:59 PM Re: Water purity overkill? [Re: Tye]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
Depends - I carry the tablets as a backup for the filter if it breaks, but there has been a time when filtering out of a large tub of water piped from a spring that I also threw in tablets, just because it looked really, really scummy.
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

Top
#162975 - 02/28/12 07:13 PM Re: Water purity overkill? [Re: Tye]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2865
Loc: California
I just take chlorine tablets. Yes, I have eaten a few bugs, chewy little things- maybe added a bit of protein to my diet. As for silt, you need a pre-filter if you are in a lot of silt, otherwise your regular filter becomes quickly plugged up. Some people get stomach upsets from glacial silt - I never have, but I seem to have an iron stomach. I take a coffee filter in my first aid kit, so if I ever get into a situation where I have to drink really cruddy water, I can filter it. I have never had to yet. The big issue with tablets only is that you have to wait minimally 1/2 hour and should weight 4 hours for your water. This requires a lot of planning. I have become used to it so it is not bothersome to me. If you are the type of person who must drink right away, then take the filter.

Top
#162980 - 02/28/12 08:05 PM Re: Water purity overkill? [Re: wandering_daisy]
OregonMouse Online   content
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
If you are double-treating, the filter takes care of the protozoan cysts (giardia and crypto) which is what chlorine dioxide needs 4 hours to zap. You therefore can cut your purification time to half an hour or less if you double-treat. However, the only reason for double-treating would be if viruses may be present, since the filter takes care of everything else.

I've found that my homemade gravity filter (described in the Make Your Own Gear section) is far lighter than the amount of extra water I'd have to carry for several hours waiting for the pills to work. The exception would be if I'm in an area that has sparse water sources, in which case I'd be carrying the extra water anyway. My big objection to the tablets, though, is the chlorine taste. I actually had to throw some water out last summer that I had treated because I couldn't stand it. BTW, I have problems with chlorinated city water, too!
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

Top
#162983 - 02/28/12 09:36 PM Re: Water purity overkill? [Re: OregonMouse]
DJ2 Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 1348
Loc: Seattle, WA
Oregon Mouse,

I don't see your gravity filter listed in the myog section. Am I looking in the right place?

dj2

Top
#162989 - 02/28/12 11:42 PM Re: Water purity overkill? [Re: DJ2]
OregonMouse Online   content
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
At the moment (may have changed by the time you look) it's the 6th item down on the menu under MYOG, titled "DIY Gravity Water Filter."

I've never gotten pictures posted and won't have time for weeks.


Edited by OregonMouse (02/28/12 11:52 PM)
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

Top
#163005 - 02/29/12 09:38 AM Re: Water purity overkill? [Re: OregonMouse]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
I usually just do one or the other. Recently I bought a new filter that has a 0.1 micron pore size. When I was looking through the company website, they were also showcasing another filter they have that has a .02 micron pore size, and can actually filter viruses. I might get that one some day.

Point Zero Two Filter


Edited by finallyME (02/29/12 09:41 AM)
_________________________
I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

Top
#163643 - 03/09/12 10:37 PM Re: Water purity overkill? [Re: Barefoot Friar]
Jim M Offline
member

Registered: 11/23/03
Posts: 430
Loc: Kitsap Peninsula, WA
Originally Posted By Barefoot Friar
I don't like lots of chemicals (ok, any chemicals) in my water.

YMMV.

Actually, water is a chemical, Hydrogen Dioxide if I recall correctly from my high school chemistry class. Seriously, I agree, your liver or kidney has enough to do without having to deal with more toxins. I wonder if FDA approves of the chemicals used for water purification. I wrote Chlorx (sp?) once and they said only use it for emergencies, not for regular purification. Yet, if done properly it seems to me the Chlorine gas all gasses off and leaves nothing but water behind. (Any Chemists reading this? If so; Let me know if that is right).


Edited by Jim M (03/09/12 10:38 PM)
_________________________
Jim M

Top
#163655 - 03/10/12 10:56 AM Re: Water purity overkill? [Re: Jim M]
PerryMK Online   content
member

Registered: 01/18/02
Posts: 1391
Loc: Florida panhandle
Originally Posted By Jim M
Actually, water is a chemical, Hydrogen Dioxide if I recall correctly ...

You're on the right track anyway. Water, as we all know, is H2O. That means it has two hydrogens and one oxygen. Thus the chemical name is Dihydrogen Oxide.

Here is a good web site on chlorine dioxide.
http://www.lenntech.com/processes/disinfection/chemical/disinfectants-chlorine-dioxide.htm
Long story short, it readily decomposes once it reacts. Thus there is nothing left.

Bleach can (and likely will) produce NaCl (salt, laundry bleach ) or CaCl2 (calcium chloride, pool bleach), a different type of salt. Other undesireable by-products are also possible.
http://www.lenntech.com/processes/disinfection/chemical/disinfectants-sodium-hypochlorite.htm
Long story short, bleach can (not necessarily will) produce some undesireable by-products. Also, both sodium hypochlorite and chlorine do not deactivate Giardia Lambia and Cryptosporidium.

Check out this link for some more good information.
http://www.lenntech.com/processes/disinfection/chemical/disinfectants.htm








Top
#163657 - 03/10/12 11:52 AM Re: Water purity overkill? [Re: PerryMK]
Jim M Offline
member

Registered: 11/23/03
Posts: 430
Loc: Kitsap Peninsula, WA
Thanks Perry.
The links to Lenntech were most informative. The one thing I didn't see explained very well is the time/temperature curve. Isn't an increase in temperature usually accompanied by an increase in the chemical reaction rate?
Here in the Pacific Northwest our stream water is often near 32°F. Which means we might have to wait much longer for the disinfection process to take place. It seems to me an increase of only 18°F (to 50°F) would be huge.


Attachments
Time vs temp vs bacterial sruvival.jpg


_________________________
Jim M

Top
#163658 - 03/10/12 12:16 PM Re: Water purity overkill? [Re: Jim M]
PerryMK Online   content
member

Registered: 01/18/02
Posts: 1391
Loc: Florida panhandle
The general rule of thumb in chemistry is that every 10 degrees celcius (18 degrees F) doubles the reaction rate. There will be limits to this of course and different reactions can occur if the temperature is raised too far. Think of it as the difference between baking a cake and burning cake batter.

Check page 4-17 for a table on temperature versus treatment efficiency. 4-19 also has an interesting table.
http://www.epa.gov/ogwdw/mdbp/pdf/alter/chapt_4.pdf

The short version is, 30 minutes is likely more than enough time using the manufacturer recommended dosage for water temperatures one is likely to actually drink.

Top
#163760 - 03/12/12 09:30 AM Re: Water purity overkill? [Re: PerryMK]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Originally Posted By PerryMK
Originally Posted By Jim M
Actually, water is a chemical, Hydrogen Dioxide if I recall correctly ...

You're on the right track anyway. Water, as we all know, is H2O. That means it has two hydrogens and one oxygen. Thus the chemical name is Dihydrogen Oxide.


You can also call it Dihydrogen Monoxide. Here is a funny website about it. wink
DHMO facts
_________________________
I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

Top
#164697 - 04/06/12 02:55 PM Re: Water purity overkill? [Re: Tye]
Outcasthiker Offline
member

Registered: 12/13/10
Posts: 60
Loc: Tennessee
You got a great filter and the company stands behind them. I have used mine for many years. No need for any further treatment.
_________________________
Never Pass Up a hike!

Top
#164717 - 04/07/12 03:19 PM Re: Water purity overkill? [Re: Tye]
Trailrunner Offline
member

Registered: 01/05/02
Posts: 1835
Loc: Los Angeles
I never treat my water twice and depending on the situation I don't treat it at all. The industry would love you to believe that you always need to double or triple treat your water. That is not the case but it sure sells a lot of filters!!!
_________________________
If you only travel on sunny days you will never reach your destination.*

* May not apply at certain latitudes in Canada and elsewhere.

Top
#164737 - 04/08/12 12:41 PM Re: Water purity overkill? [Re: Trailrunner]
BradMT Offline
member

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 151
The "water treatment" industry (aka fear-mongering/selling products) in context is part of the larger movement towards the Nanny Nation we now sadly are becoming.

I'm not saying never treat water (in some cases you MUST treat water), but the whole subject is so overblown as to be preposterous, let alone "double treating" water. Good grief.

Some good reading here...

http://www.lightandmatter.com/article/hiking_water.html
_________________________
There Is No Bad Weather, Just Bad Clothing...

Top
#164744 - 04/08/12 04:11 PM Re: Water purity overkill? [Re: BradMT]
OregonMouse Online   content
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
The only time I would double treat water is downstream of cities and towns. Filters don't remove viruses, and if there is sewage (even treated) coming in, there are going to be unpleasant things like noroviruses in the water.
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

Top
#165106 - 04/19/12 12:40 AM Re: Water purity overkill? [Re: OregonMouse]
sandia Offline
member

Registered: 04/18/12
Posts: 68
I've made LOTS of VERY bad decisions about drinking untreated water over many, many years.

Yet have always been perfectly fine.

In general, you don't need to treat water at all, if you are minimally smart about sources.

There is MUCH scientific/medical literature debunking typical backpackers' ideas about treating water, and really nothing that supports them.

Top
#165107 - 04/19/12 12:44 AM Re: Water purity overkill? [Re: sandia]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
Originally Posted By sandia
I've made LOTS of VERY bad decisions about drinking untreated water over many, many years.

Yet have always been perfectly fine.

In general, you don't need to treat water at all, if you are minimally smart about sources.

There is MUCH scientific/medical literature debunking typical backpackers' ideas about treating water, and really nothing that supports them.


It may very well be that you are in the lucky 50% of the population that is carrying giardia and completely lacking in symptoms.

Congrats. I know personally far too many people who have had confirmed cases to ever risk it, myself. I will always filter, particularly in waterways that the pack trains cross on a regular basis, or where cattle are grazed. Which is a huge portion of the central Sierra Nevada, and primarily where I hike.

May your faith in "research" prove to hold true.
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

Top
#165113 - 04/19/12 12:58 AM Re: Water purity overkill? [Re: lori]
sandia Offline
member

Registered: 04/18/12
Posts: 68
Evil toxins in the body.... anti-biotic cactus enemas...etc. there is SO much folk-lore out there....and many specialists available to deal with these problems.

I've investigated the medical/science and public health literature, and the folklore just doesn't stand up to review.

Top
#165114 - 04/19/12 01:13 AM Re: Water purity overkill? [Re: sandia]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
The research doesn't stand up to first hand accounts.

I trust my friends. They have hospital records backing them. You can have your research.
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

Top
#165117 - 04/19/12 04:58 AM Re: Water purity overkill? [Re: lori]
DTape Offline
member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 666
Loc: Upstate NY
I do not think individuals first hand accounts of having contracted a parasitic disease necessarily contradict the research. Even lab confirmed cases of a disease do not, and cannot confirm how the person contracted the parasite. It is very common to blame the water, but the more likely vector was another human, and that person was not necessarily in the backcountry with them.

_________________________
http://ducttapeadk.blogspot.com

Top
#165126 - 04/19/12 02:45 PM Re: Water purity overkill? [Re: DTape]
sandia Offline
member

Registered: 04/18/12
Posts: 68
Some believe the earth is flat, trusting similarly to subjective "experience."

Gastro-intestinal complaints are extremely common. Disease-causing levels of bad buggies in back-country water are not.

See for example Robert Rockwell + Giardia or Derlett + Sierra, etc.

Top
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 >

Shout Box

Highest Quality Lightweight Down Sleeping Bags
 
Western Mountaineering Sleeping Bags
 
Lite Gear Talk - Featured Topics
Backcountry Discussion - Featured Topics
Make Your Own Gear - Featured Topics
Featured Photos
Spiderco Chaparral Pocketknife
David & Goliath
Also Testing
Trip Report with Photos
Seven Devils, Idaho
Oat Hill Mine Trail 2012
Dark Canyon - Utah
Who's Online
0 registered (), 160 Guests and 0 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Noodles, McCrary, DanyBacky, Rashy Willia, WanderBison
13240 Registered Users
Forum Links
Disclaimer
Policies
Site Links
Backpacking.net
Lightweight Gear Store
Backpacking Book Store
Lightweight Zone
Hiking Essentials

Our long-time Sponsor, BackcountryGear.com - The leading source for ultralite/lightweight outdoor gear:

Backcountry Forum
 

Affiliate Disclaimer: This forum is an affiliate of BackcountryGear.com, Amazon.com, R.E.I. and others. The product links herein are linked to their sites. If you follow these links to make a purchase, we may get a small commission. This is our only source of support for these forums. Thanks.!
 
 

Since 1996 - the Original Backcountry Forum
Copyright © The Lightweight Backpacker & BackcountryForum